Downcity as a Resident Hood

[CtownMikey]

do you veterans think that the market will be there after all of our current projects are completed... to fill the new 195 land with some big projects? and the surrounding land, to add density?

[CtownMikey]

Those other cities seem to blow us away with development.. but I have to say that our Under Construction and Proposed projects are so much more beautiful than what is going up in those cities.. just the westin and OTW alone! they are hawt! Those 2 are going to make our city 100% better visually

[Garris]

Those other cities seem to blow us away with development.. but I have to say that our Under Construction and Proposed projects are so much more beautiful than what is going up in those cities.. just the westin and OTW alone! they are hawt! Those 2 are going to make our city 100% better visually

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, our development is nice, but hardly an out of control train. Again, Minneapolis is going to be one of the most exciting urban neighborhoods in America in the next decades to come... Part of me is sad I moved away from the region. While we argue Prov vs Hartford, check out Minneapolis' list of downtown development (keep in mind that already 35,000+ people live right in the core of downtown. If I count right, it's about 13 20+ story buildings approved-> under construction, and another 5 or so proposed... Most linked by LRT! The Minneapolis Central Library and The New Guthrie Theater buildings are especially exciting. If the designs have stayed on track from when I left, these have the potential to have the impact of recent efforts like Seattle's new library...

Under Construction

Name - - Buildings - - Stories - - Units

-The Carlyle - - 1 - - 39 - - 255

-Grant Park - - 1 - - 27 - - 318

*Tower is completed, but town homes are still under construction.

-The Falls & the Pinnacle - - 2 - - 19 & 28 - - 257 (conversion)

-RiverWest - - 1 - - 18 - - 410 (conversion)

-1016 Marquette - - 1 - - 10 - - 8

-The Lofts at IMS - - 1 - - 10 - - 97

-720 Lofts - - 1 - - 8 - - 99

-Bookman Stacks - - 1 - - 8 - - 45

-The Sexton - - 2 - - 7 - - 141

-The Groveland - - 1 - - 7 - - 132

-5th Avenue Lofts - - 1 - - 4 & 7 - - 138

Construction Starts Soon

Name - - Buildings - - Stories - - Units

-The Nicollet - - 1 - - 54 - - 341

-Skyscape - - 1 - - 27 - - 252

-Ivy Hotel & Residence - - 3 - - 24 - - 88

-Fifth Avenue Gateway - - 1 - - 20 - - 138

-Phoenix on the River - - 1 - - 5 & 17 - - 70

-Cobalt - - 1 - - 10 - - 96 - - will include a new, Lunds grocery store

-Flour Sack Flats Phase 1 - - 1 - - 6 - - 45

-Flour Sack Flats - - 1 - - 5 - - 58

-Mill Trace Condominiums - - 1 - - 4 - - 50

Has City Approvals

Name - - Buildings - - Stories - - Units

-Pillsbury ‘A’ Mill - - 12 - - 3 to 27 - - 1095

-The Eclipse - - 2 - - 26 & 32 - - 508

-730 Lofts - - 1 - - 10 - - 126

-Whitney Hotel Condos - - 1 - - 7 - - 48

Proposed

Name - - Buildings - - Stories - - Units

-Allina/Eitel site - - 2 - - 39 - - 250 to 300

-1010 Park Avenue - - 4 - - 8 to 31 - - 380 to 400

-1730 Clifton Place - - 1 - - 3 to 16 - - 120

-Herschel Condos - - 1 - - 6 - - 47

-International Harvester Lofts - - 1 - - 6 - - 51

-Gardner Condos - - 2 - - 7 - - 65 to 70

-Washington Live-Work - - 1 - - 5 - - 18

-Parcel F - - 3 - - 5 to 8 - - 200

-6th Street & 1st Avenue - - 1 - - 4 to 12 - - 160 to 170

-Park Avenue East Lofts - - 1 - - 4 to 5 - - 28

-The Nine - - 1 - - 4 to 5 - - 9

-Parcel E - - 1 - - 4 - - 124

-The Portland - - 1 - - 4 - - 22

-The Wave - - 1 - - 3 to 5 - - 38

Cultural Developments

-Minneapolis Central Library

-The New Guthrie Theater

-Minneapolis Institute of the Arts Expansion

-Children's Theatre Expansion

-MacPhail Center for Music

-American Swedish Institute

-Shubert Theatre Restoration

Other Minneapolis Developments

-Midtown Exchange

x The development includes:

x 360 apartments, condos and townhomes

x the headquarters of Allina Hospitals and Clinics

x a Hennepin County service center;

x a new Sheraton hotel

x the Midtown Global Market, which will be the city's largest public market

-Lagoon and Fremont - - 1 - - 10 - - 100 - - 50,000sq. ft. office space - - Uptown

-Eat Street Flats - - 1 - - 4 - - 54

-Madison Lofts

-The Edge - - 1 - - 5 - - 42

-600 SE Main St. - - 1 - - 40 to 45 units

-Minnehaha Place Condominiums - - 1 - - 5 - - 90 - - TOD

-Greenleaf Lofts - - 1 - - 5 - - 27 - - TOD

-Arts Quarter Lofts - - 1 - - 4 - - 29

-Steel Flats - - 1 - - 3 - - 32

-Chambers Hotel

x A boutique hotel project at and around the site of the old Fairmont Hotel in downtown Minneapolis. New York-based Rockwell Group to be lead designer for the revised project. Rockwell designed the original Chambers hotel in New York City, along with projects including the Kodak Theater in Hollywood and the W New York hotel. Minneapolis-based Shea Inc. will work with Rockwell on the hotel complex.

Other Proposed Developments

-Twinsville - - Downtown

x either a $400 million, 1,000-condo development alongside a $478 million Twins stadium, or a mainly residential project with 3,000 condos and no stadium that would be worth $800 million.

do you veterans think that the market will be there after all of our current projects are completed... to fill the new 195 land with some big projects? and the surrounding land, to add density?

This is the billion dollar question... The market will directly determine what becomes of that land, whatever the master plan says... I fear that it'll be less dense and lower-rise than many of use will like...

- Garris

[AriPVD]

Garris--Thanks for the update on Minneapolis. I've never been out there but I'd like to see it. Is it possible to explain (briefly) why the city has been so successful in drawing people to their downtown? Big corporate presence? Transit hub? Minnesota just seems so, I don't know, removed and sterile. That's coming from someone who has never step foot in the state, so please feel free to change my perceptions.

[Cotuit]

Transit hub?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's far from a transit hub, at least nationally, Northwest dominates the airport there. I used to work for a company that did business with Taget, and our VP of Marketing & Sales had to go out there several times a year. Since Northwest owns the airport, airfare to Minneapolis was insane! It was actually a problem for Target. This was about 5 years ago though, so it may have change since.

[Frankie811]

Garris--Thanks for the update on Minneapolis.

[Garris]

Garris--Thanks for the update on Minneapolis.

[Recchia]

Doesn't Minn/St. Paul have tax-base sharing too, which helps a lot with equalizing its public school system with the suburbs?

[Garris]

Doesn't Minn/St. Paul have tax-base sharing too, which helps a lot with equalizing its public school system with the suburbs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe so, and if I recall, it's constantly under assault by the suburbs...

This will be an interesting issue in the future. While downtown Minneapolis/St. Paul are growing by leaps and bounds, the suburbs are growing faster. That dynamic will be interesting to follow...

- Garris

[eltron]

Do you think its really fair to compare Minneapolis/St. Paul to Providence though? It has a metro area of almost exactly 3 million people, way bigger than Providence's (more like Chicago in scale). And as you bring up in the point about isolation, far from other influencing cities, a much more concentrated urbanism over a larger area than Providence, which sees much siphoned off from Boston.

That said, I've heard nothing but good things about the Twin Cities....almost went for a conference in the spring, but went to Buenos Aires instead . I'll have to get out there sometime soon.

[Garris]

Do you think its really fair to compare Minneapolis/St. Paul to Providence though? It has a metro area of almost exactly 3 million people, way bigger than Providence's (more like Chicago in scale). And as you bring up in the point about isolation, far from other influencing cities, a much more concentrated urbanism over a larger area than Providence, which sees much siphoned off from Boston.

Oh, as metros, I don't think the Twin Cities and Providence are comparable at all... The Twin Cities are much, much larger and more vibrant. A better comparison would be Boston/Providence to the Twin Cities, but our two cities are farther apart geographically and in influence.

The original question was just whether there are other areas experiencing the kind of overall building, arts, and culinary growth of Providence and I think, individually, as a region, and even per capita, there is far, far more happening in the Twin Cities than in Boston/Providence combined several times over. That's why I think while nice, Providence's "wild growth" is just mild compared to other areas. Whole neighborhoods of the Twin Cities are being rapidly transformed (for the better) and new ones created at a pace that this region hasn't seen since the 20's and mid-80's, and probably won't for a long time, if ever, unless our regional cost structure, beaucracy, and economy changes dramatically.

One could say that, despite a more developed skyline, the St. Paul downtown residential/retail core could be compared to Providence's in overall size, feel, and trends (abandoned by name retail, now being reborn as residential communities). Again, though, the metro is larger.

When Boston-centric folks keep pointing to Boston as the center of the universe, I bring up the Twin Cities. There is, solely in my opinion, so much of a more vibrant arts, culture, sports, outdoors, dining, etc scene in the larger Twin Cities vs Boston, and you can enjoy it for a fraction of the cost of living, which is one of the reasons the TC's are so vibrant. A huge spectrum of humanity can afford to live there. Again, I love Boston, but I often feel for what it costs to live there, you don't get your money's worth vs the Twin Cities, Phily, Chicago, Portland, or even SF or NYC...

That said, like most Midwestern Cities, the Twin Cities have a totally different feel for Northeastern cities. They are spread out much wider, with wider streets, sidewalks, etc... That "canyon" like feel is fairly unique to only a few places in the North America (Boston, NYC, Prov, Phily, Toronto, and not much else...).

- Garris

BTW: I think Chicago's metro is far larger than the Twin Cities. At the very least double, and it feels at least twice as urban as well...

BTW2: I doubt the Twin Cities metro is more densely populated than Providence. The metro is, in Midwestern fashion, fairly spread out. To drive from the Southwest corner of the Minneapolis metro to the Northeast corner of what's considered the St. Paul metro could take you 45 minutes to an hour!

[AvianKeahi]

Garris--Thanks for the update on Minneapolis.  I've never been out there but I'd like to see it.  Is it possible to explain (briefly) why the city has been so successful in drawing people to their downtown?  Big corporate presence?  Transit hub?  Minnesota just seems so, I don't know, removed and sterile.  That's coming from someone who has never step foot in the state, so please feel free to change my perceptions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Garris had a good overview of Minneapolis. I'd add that Minneapolis (and St. Paul to a slightly lesser extent) has also benefitted from tightly controlling where growth occurs in the core city. Minneapolis' 4 major office towers (each of these over 700') are within 200 yards of each other, and the medium office towers cluster around those. This makes for a very walkable city and allows for small businesses to prosper by feeding off the daily flow of office workers. (I have a more detailed post in the Urban Discussion forum under "Dallas vs. Minneapolis" about this.) It also creates a vibrancy that attracts even more people to the restaurants, nightclubs, cinemas and theatres. Ultimately it begins to feed off itself.

Regarding "sterility," I think that is just a stereotype of it's early Scandinavian heritage, Dont'cha know dat der?

And BTW, very OT, I miss the Matadors Drum and Bugle Corps from Providence! They were great!

[Garris]

(I have a more detailed post in the Urban Discussion forum under "Dallas vs. Minneapolis" about this.) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting post... Here's the link to the thread http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=14343.

Parking is a huge Providence issue. What has been the Twin Cities' master plan for downtown parking?

- Garris

[CtownMikey]

my 2nd cousin (i think it's 2nd) was in the matadors...and one of my old instructors from HS wants to start up another drum corps in rhode island soon.

[citygirl]

Oh, as metros, I don't think the Twin Cities and Providence are comparable at all...  The Twin Cities are much, much larger and more vibrant.  A better comparison would be Boston/Providence to the Twin Cities, but our two cities are farther apart geographically and in influence. 

The original question was just whether there are other areas experiencing the kind of overall building, arts, and culinary growth of Providence and I think, individually, as a region, and even per capita, there is far, far more happening in the Twin Cities than in Boston/Providence combined several times over.  That's why I think while nice, Providence's "wild growth" is just mild compared to other areas.  Whole neighborhoods of the Twin Cities are being rapidly transformed (for the better) and new ones created at a pace that this region hasn't seen since the 20's and mid-80's, and probably won't for a long time, if ever, unless our regional cost structure, beaucracy, and economy changes dramatically. 

One could say that, despite a more developed skyline, the St. Paul downtown residential/retail core could be compared to Providence's in overall size, feel, and trends (abandoned by name retail, now being reborn as residential communities).  Again, though, the metro is larger. 

When Boston-centric folks keep pointing to Boston as the center of the universe, I bring up the Twin Cities.  There is, solely in my opinion, so much of a more vibrant arts, culture, sports, outdoors, dining, etc scene in the larger Twin Cities vs Boston, and you can enjoy it for a fraction of the cost of living, which is one of the reasons the TC's are so vibrant.  A huge spectrum of humanity can afford to live there.  Again, I love Boston, but I often feel for what it costs to live there, you don't get your money's worth vs the Twin Cities, Phily, Chicago, Portland, or even SF or NYC...

That said, like most Midwestern Cities, the Twin Cities have a totally different feel for Northeastern cities.  They are spread out much wider, with wider streets, sidewalks, etc...  That "canyon" like feel is fairly unique to only a few places in the North America (Boston, NYC, Prov, Phily, Toronto, and not much else...).

- Garris

BTW: I think Chicago's metro is far larger than the Twin Cities.  At the very least double, and it feels at least twice as urban as well...

BTW2: I doubt the Twin Cities metro is more densely populated than Providence.  The metro is, in Midwestern fashion, fairly spread out.  To drive from the Southwest corner of the Minneapolis metro to the Northeast corner of what's considered the St. Paul metro could take you 45 minutes to an hour!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you guys actually BEEN to St.Paul!? I've walked around downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul on a beautiful sunny Sunday afternoon, and the place was EMPTY!!! And this is in the area of the old flour mills that are being converted into condos and luxury apartments! It's a beautiful setting on the bluffs above the Mississippi River, and the state and cities have done a fabulous job with parks and access (the bridges are especially cool) and the beginnings of the light rail system. But believe me, there's nobody home in most of the downtown. Even the great farmer's markets, which are wonderfully diverse and busy, don't seem to be able to spill over into the downtown per se. St. Paul has some great streets up near Macalester and the colleges off Summit and Grand Avenues, but their style and presence aren't found in many other places. And as someone else in this thread pointed out, it takes forever to get from one side to the other.

[Snowguy716]

The conflicts between the suburbs and the inner city also spread into rural Minnesota.. or as Minnesotans call it "out-state".

The tax system in Minnesota is very equalized for schools and local government aid. Rich cities basically subsidize poor cities so that they can have good government services.

But like it has been mentioned, the suburbs are becoming more and more conservative and are fighting to keep their money in their cities. The result has been more and more friction between urban/rural politicians and suburban politicians.

I would love to live in MInneapolis, but I'm not a fan of the climate. Believe it or not, I think it's too warm with not enough snow. I've always been a fan of Duluth, which is a mid-sized city of 100,000+ on Lake Superior. That city has recently adapted and transitioned from an industrial city to a tourist/services city. It is all the better for it.

But then again, those days in June where it can be 90 degrees 15 miles out of the city and be 48 with fog down town by the lake could make me have second thoughts.

[Garris]

Have you guys actually BEEN to St.Paul!?  I've walked around downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul on a beautiful sunny Sunday afternoon, and the place was EMPTY!!! And this is in the area of the old flour mills that are being converted into condos and luxury apartments! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been to downtown St. Paul quite a bit... It's a lot like downcity Providence right now, especially our "W" streets (Washington, Westminster, Weybosset). Currently, it's kind of empty, gritty, full of potential, at the beginning of being redone, and probably about 3-5 years away from hitting "critical mass." The same is true of the Mill District in Minneapolis, which is about 3-7 years away from critical mass depending upon where you are... That part of the city is starting from nothing. The buildings there were empty shells like the Masonic Temple here in Providence was... I think the Mill museum there has even kept part of its exposed hollow shell as part of the design for the museum...

I've always been a fan of Duluth, which is a mid-sized city of 100,000+ on Lake Superior. That city has recently adapted and transitioned from an industrial city to a tourist/services city. It is all the better for it.

I love Duluth... I always regret I never brought my camera. It has one of the most dramatic entrances from the highway of any city I've ever been to... You're driving up, up, up, then, BAM, you're looking down on the city and across the lake to the horizon. Kind of like a mini-SF.

In feel, the closest local analogue to Duluth is probably Worcester, MA, which would do well to follow Duluth's formula to success. Duluth's downtown and waterfront renaissance (equal in impact to Providence's Waterplace) has been impressive. Like some of our local cities, though, Duluth lost a lot of population and hit rock bottom before it was able to climb back up...

- Garris

[BBascule]

Personally, I am opposed to residential development in Downcity.. I think there is room for that style of downlown living in the Jewelry District, where down city should house white collar jobs in any number of industries.. Those high paying job make the city go..

For the long term viability of the city, and for it not to be simply an urban suburb of Boston, I think we need to keep the downcity core non-residential..

Thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There was an interesting article in the New York Times on Wednesday 8/10. A similar situation is occurring in Boston, where new towers that were originally slated for office space are getting re-purposed and sold off as condo units. There is still a glut of empty commercial space and developers are finding that in the current residential real estate boom they can fetch a higher price per square foot.

[Cotuit]

There was an interesting article in the New York Times on Wednesday 8/10. A similar situation is occurring in Boston, where new towers that were originally slated for office space are getting re-purposed and sold off as condo units. There is still a glut of empty commercial space and developers are finding that in the current residential real estate boom they can fetch a higher price per square foot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the case here in Providence too. Capital Center was supposed to be an office area, however we have Waterplace and Capital Cove going in instead.

[Garris]

There was an interesting article in the New York Times on Wednesday 8/10. A similar situation is occurring in Boston, where new towers that were originally slated for office space are getting re-purposed and sold off as condo units. There is still a glut of empty commercial space and developers are finding that in the current residential real estate boom they can fetch a higher price per square foot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting, but somewhat underdeveloped, article. Some interesting quotes:

"The preference for residential projects reflects an office market with 16.6 percent of its space available for lease or sublease, only a slight improvement from the 20-year high of 19.7 percent reached in the third quarter of 2004."

"With investors spurning securities markets, they are bidding up commercial property prices. But "high sale prices reflect activity in financial markets, not the value of real estate," Mr. Sloan said. "The state economy is at a questionable turning point. The labor force has been reduced. Businesses aren't investing in capital plant. The growing companies are nonoffice users like health care, education and biotechnology. Where will the office growth come from? If there's more outsourcing, we're in for rough straits.""

The full link is here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/10/realestate/10boston.html

- Garris

[BBascule]

The labor force has been reduced. Businesses aren't investing in capital plant. The growing companies are nonoffice users like health care, education and biotechnology. Where will the office growth come from? If there's more outsourcing, we're in for rough straits.""

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for posting the link. The idea of the non-office labor force is interesting.

[AvianKeahi]

Have you guys actually BEEN to St.Paul!?  I've walked around downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul on a beautiful sunny Sunday afternoon, and the place was EMPTY!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've heard this a lot from people visiting St. Paul on a Sunday or even Saturday. And I think it's true up to a point. Both downtown cores - which are about 8 miles apart - are primarily vertical office parks. They are very busy on weekdays but the office districts are empty on weekends. That's true of most American downtowns in their office cores, and I assume it's similar in Providence. But I don't think there is anything wrong with that. The pulse of any city shifts depending on the time and the day.

On weekends you have to change your strategy and look for the entertainment, recreational or arts districts. Even the downtown residential areas are not very crowded on weekends because people are out at the lakes and parks or shopping in the malls or at the museums or just doing their laundry. However, the activity does move back to the downtowns at night where a lot of restaurants, theatres and nightclubs are located.

I don't think downtown Providence ought to worry too much about every area being active 24 hours a day. What it does take however are strategic developments that offer citizens the opportunity to get a decent meal or listen to a jazz band after dark, take a romantic walk along a safe waterfront, or play catch with their kids in a beautiful park.

[Cotuit]

Even our best cities (New York, Boston, and SF) have had downtowns that were ghost towns at night and during the weekend. I'm not sure about SF, but in recent years Boston and New York's downtowns have been becoming 24-hour residential districts, and activity has been picking up at night and on the weekends.

Boston had activity around Quincy Market and the Aquarium, but most of the business district between the Artery and the Common was lifeless on weekends. In New York the Battery and South Street Seaport have always been active, but the business district south of City Hall was always dead in off hours.

Smaller cities like Providence and St. Paul are actually at an advantage. In Providence our Financial District is only a couple square blocks, it's easy for activities on the East Side and Federal Hill to bleed into the Downtown. It doesn't take much retail or residential to liven up the area. In the 3 years I've been here I've already seen a marked increase in downtown activity levels. I remember the first year when I was here and the students left how stark the constrast was, it was certainly less this year.

[MrSmith]

In my opinion the biggest factor in creating a successful rebirth/growth in Minneapolis is what is known as "Neighborhood Revitalization" (NRP). Essentially, all 85 neighborhoods in the city get a share of downtown tax revenue. The share varies depending on how poor the area is. With very few rules, the neighborhoods got to set the priorities for spending the money. The idea is that the residents sets neighborhood priorities, not the government.

Some neighborhoods created low-interest home loan programs, some got decorative street lighting and new playground equipment. Some paid for business landscaping. Some built community centers and gyms. Some installed art --the list goes on and on. The key is that it got neighbors involved.

My current neighborhood on the edge of downtown is 95% rental and has a 35% poverty rate. The goal of the neighborhood was to get more owner occupied housing in an effort to reduce crime and increase shops and amenities.

They used $100,000 to hire master planners to identify opportunities for development. Then they contacted developers about a piece of property along a highway exit ramp -- no one was interested. To entice them they offered $300,000 of their NRP money to help minimize the developers risk. The result: Grant Park a 27 story building with 322 owner occupied condos and brownstowns ranging in value from $199,000 to over $1 million. Now another non-subsidized tower is being built accross the street and five more will be built withing the next 3 years.

In addition, the success of this project (the first residential tower in Downtown in 20 years) has encouraged other developers accross the entire city. There are 50 project planned for downtown alone. And the best part is the with NRP as a foundation, these neghborhoods are more organized and better able to shape the developments than ever before.

[HartfordTycoon]

In my opinion the biggest factor in creating a successful rebirth/growth in Minneapolis is what is known as "Neighborhood Revitalization" (NRP).  Essentially, all 85 neighborhoods in the city get a share of downtown tax revenue.  The share varies depending on how poor the area is. With very few rules, the neighborhoods got to set the priorities for spending the money.  The idea is that the residents sets neighborhood priorities, not the government.

Some neighborhoods created low-interest home loan programs, some got decorative street lighting and new playground equipment.  Some paid for business landscaping.  Some built community centers and gyms.  Some installed art --the list goes on and on.  The key is that it got neighbors involved.

My current neighborhood on the edge of downtown is 95% rental and has a 35% poverty rate.  The goal of the neighborhood was to get more owner occupied housing in an effort to reduce crime and increase shops and amenities.

They used $100,000 to hire master planners to identify opportunities for development.  Then they contacted developers about a piece of property along a highway exit ramp -- no one was interested.  To entice them they offered $300,000 of their NRP money to help minimize the developers risk.  The result: Grant Park a 27 story building with 322 owner occupied condos and brownstowns ranging in value from $199,000 to over $1 million.  Now another non-subsidized tower is being built accross the street and five more will be built withing the next 3 years.

In addition, the success of this project (the first residential tower in Downtown in 20 years) has encouraged other developers accross the entire city.  There are 50 project planned for downtown alone. And the best part is the with NRP as a foundation, these neghborhoods are more organized and better able to shape the developments than ever before.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That development looks great. I hope we can see something like that in Hartford sometime soon. Damn, we have alot of catching up to do.