Main Street/CBD Developments

[lucjanrc]

All the other student housing complexes look miles better than the proposed Edge. Cheap software? Intern architect? 

[carolinagarnet]

1 hour ago, mpretori said:

Maybe it's because of insurance and being it catered to college kids. 

Aesthetic balconies are non-functioning; they are typically not placed in front of a working door. The apartment would probably only need liability insurance if it built full working balconies and even then, I'm not sure how much more that would really cost. Balconies would allow them to charge slightly more and would attract the higher end market they seem to be targeting. I think the blandness of the building may be due to something else entirely. Prefab and modular construction is increasingly popular due to the lower cost, faster time to market, and simplicity of assembly. Unfortunately, adding any embellishments (excluding windows) to a slab build on the ground is very difficult. Based on the two designs, I think they are pushing for prefab construction. It is more difficult to pull off with taller buildings, but still economically attractive. Unfortunately, this method limits the character-building elements that make a building visually interesting.

[Spartan]

I just hope the DRB shoots it down. If not, the Columbia needs to get on board with adopting some higher standards.

[carolinagarnet]

Does anyone else think this is a really bad idea? Steve Benjamin has been getting very creative with his funding schemes. TIFs should be used only in limited circumstances and should not be overused, lest you end up with a city of choppy little districts that are not contributing to the general fund. It seems like the city is trying to draw wider TIF borders than are necessary in order to hit the amount of money they need for the park. The problem is that many of the houses and townhouses that are already within the TIF zone contribute to the city, the county, and Richland 1 already. Removing their tax revenue only puts further pressure on other neighborhoods that do not fall within TIFs.

http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article86143417.html

[vicupstate]

The park is in deplorable shape and the city should never have let it get that bad.  Kirk Finlay would cry if he were alive to see it's present condition. 

The typography of this park has caused problems from day one. I lived in Cola when it was being built (late '80's) and the construction problems and cost overruns probably cost then  Mayor Patton Adams to lose reelection to Bob Coble.  It certainly was a major factor. It seems the issues continue to occur and that should give the city great pause in building a 'glass building' at the peak of this park.        

The glass building looks pretty ridiculous if you ask me. Given the reputation this park has from the years of neglect it will need a major PR campaign to get people to want to hold events there.

The city has it's hands full with Bull Street and needs to see that project succeed, before it takes on anything more than repairs at Finlay Park.  

A TIF would NOT take away EXISTING revenues, but ADDITIONAL tax revenues going forward would not go to the city/county/school district general funds until the TIF expires. 

The Congaree Vista TIF was pretty successful and built Finlay (Sydney) Park in the first place. However the city's management has gone dramatically downhill since then.  

I would pair down the plans for Finlay to simply fixing what needs repair and being as sure as possible that it actually can be fixed.   

  

[growingup15]

http://www.thestate.com/news/local/article86300422.html

 

looking like some new garage talk has come up.

[Spartan]

First of all, "typography" is is a font (e.g.: Times New Roman, Courier New). I can excuse pretty much anyone for that amusing typographical error, but a journalist should know better. Topography describes terrain.

Improving Finlay Park is a great idea. It should be the crown jewel of the city. It should be the one of the top 5 places in the city that people tell visitors to go see. If the park is improved and made to be a statement for South Carolina, then it's possible that it could be a catalyst for new development and a TIF would work. However, if the focus is on maintenance and shoring up what's already there, then a TIF would be a waste of time and energy.

[vicupstate]

It was and would still be a crown jewel, if it had been maintained and ideally, built correctly to begin with (assuming that was possible given the site challenges). 

The city has a full plate paying for Bull Street and has a long history of fiscal mismanagement. Costly utility upgrades and maintenance is an albatross around the city's neck as well.  A long list of housing projects have been given sizable tax breaks as well. The burden of providing services to those projects will not be reduced in kind, however. 

The city should not burden itself further with this project, nor should it get in the event rental business via a very pricey new venue that will not pay for itself.  Spend what is needed to make the repairs and call it a day.  Improvements can be made later once the city completes other projects that are already obligated.  This area has already been TIFed before, and should not be put in a TIF again.    

 

[Spartan]

So that means you're ok with Finlay continuing to be a black eye on the city, rather than a centerpiece? How do you know a new venue won't pay for itself?

[vicupstate]

It doesn't take $20mm to bring the park back to its former glory. Those images clearly show a grand redesign of the park and it's fountains.

I wouldn't trust the City of Columbia to run a lemonade stand, much less a very expensive event venue. An event venue is suited for the private sector, not the public sector.  The only way it could support itself is if there was no debt service on the facility at all.  That would be unfair competition and totally unnecessary.  We aren't talking about a meeting room or a picnic shelter, which would be appropriate for a park, this is much bigger and more specialized.  

[TKJones]

Another thing to keep in mind is that Finlay's bad reputation (at least from my observations) isn't because of its poor physical condition. Putting big money into renovations won't necessarily change the fact (or the perception) that the park has been completely taken over by homeless people. With a struggling bull street commons and a need to keep momentum and move toward connectivity for main street/vista, making this a priority just doesn't seem like the right move at the moment. I like Finlay probably more than most, and a reasonable amount of maintenance and reconstruction makes sense right now, but potentially spending eight figures on it would be wasteful. Hopefully not too long from now once downtown's appeal continues to improve, the demand and the money will actually be there to support a quality renovation.

[carolinagarnet]

To pile on, the park is at a fundamental disadvantage. It sits far below much of the property surrounding it and is blocked from view (from Assembly) by the post office. I actually love the idea of selling off some of the land on the west side of the park as windows overlooking the area would likely increase safety. Streetscaping seems like a waste of money since those streets are relatively low traffic and the adjoining property has limited development potential. Bull Street between Gervais and the Commons or Gervais between Harden and Main would be a much better use of that money. Better yet, allow the developers to build next to the library and use that money to pay for all of the city's existing obligations. It did not escape me that Benjamin is now trying to get out of the massive financial burden the city assumed by agreeing to pay for garages at Bull Street by outsourcing construction and maintenance to the public sector. Somehow he wants to keep spending in spite of the massive unfunded liabilities he knows the city is required to cover.

[Spartan]

The post office is the biggest thing holding back that site. If they could find a way to move that building and incorporate the land into the park, it would be a major win for Columbia. IMO, that's what they should use the TIF for.

[growingup15]

2 minutes ago, Spartan said:

The post office is the biggest thing holding back that site. If they could find a way to move that building and incorporate the land into the park, it would be a major win for Columbia. IMO, that's what they should use the TIF for.

Agreed. but ive  heard people saying before that land where the Postal building is at would great for a developer or an Apartment or mixed used.

 

i think They need to find a developer to fuse a great development and the park together.

[urbanlover568]

Overall i think it's becoming very clear that things are looking more murkier for Columbia. Park 7 ceased construction on their mid-rise, no construction on kline city center, and bull street coming to a halt. 

[vicupstate]

The Post Office has been there from day one. That isn't the problem. Inadequate upkeep and maintenance and patrolling sounds like the problem. 

[growingup15]

13 hours ago, mpretori said:

Overall i think it's becoming very clear that things are looking more murkier for Columbia. Park 7 ceased construction on their mid-rise, no construction on kline city center, and bull street coming to a halt. 

I'm trying to figure out what happened?

 

things we're looking good for Columbia then 2016 came in and poof

[Spartan]

13 hours ago, vicupstate said:

The Post Office has been there from day one. That isn't the problem. Inadequate upkeep and maintenance and patrolling sounds like the problem. 

For clarification, I'm not suggesting that the post office is the problem. I'm saying that removing it and incorporating that area into the park would make the park better.

The other thing that would make it better is if all of the adjacent blocks had apartment or condo midrises. The park doesn't have enough neighborhood traffic for people to take ownership of the space. The biggest challenge to that, IMO, is the fact that Arsenal Hill is dominated by the Governors Mansion and other government buildings. That doesn't make a compelling neighbor.

[SouthernBorn]

Overall i think it's becoming very clear that things are looking more murkier for Columbia. Park 7 ceased construction on their mid-rise, no construction on kline city center, and bull street coming to a halt. 

You have to be the biggest skeptic and unknowing person I know. Park 7 is waiting for certain permits and approval from boards and some design changes. Also the market was just flooded with student housing so they are definitely waiting to see how this set of student housing does. Kline city center is also going through some permitting and waiting for some tenants along with design changes. Bull street is doing underground infrastructure and will more than likely wait til after baseball season to start construction on above ground infrastructure and Hughes is waiting for the parking garages.

You seem to look at it as you see it visually and not know what's going on behind the scenes. I don't think you know what goes into building buildings and projects. There's more than just getting approval from a board putting equipment on site and putting up a building. These developers have experience and know what they're doing. It's Columbia projects take longer than in other cities. Look how long it took for Nashville to get 505 CST to start. The new World Trade Center wasn't built in a day and the tower 2 still hasn't started construction.

[urbanlover568]

6 hours ago, SouthernBorn said:

You have to be the biggest skeptic and unknowing person I know. Park 7 is waiting for certain permits and approval from boards and some design changes. Also the market was just flooded with student housing so they are definitely waiting to see how this set of student housing does. Kline city center is also going through some permitting and waiting for some tenants along with design changes. Bull street is doing underground infrastructure and will more than likely wait til after baseball season to start construction on above ground infrastructure and Hughes is waiting for the parking garages.

 

You seem to look at it as you see it visually and not know what's going on behind the scenes. I don't think you know what goes into building buildings and projects. There's more than just getting approval from a board putting equipment on site and putting up a building. These developers have experience and know what they're doing. It's Columbia projects take longer than in other cities. Look how long it took for Nashville to get 505 CST to start. The new World Trade Center wasn't built in a day and the tower 2 still hasn't started construction.

1. Park 7 got design approval and started construction. 1 month after starting, they up and left. Took all their equipment and haven't seen anyone on site since. Just a hole there now. 

2. Kline themselves stated they would start construction in June 2016, this has not happened because they havent sold a single sq ft of retail or office space. 

3. Bull street, while may be doing utility relocation, is behind the mayors own projections. Even though it's a 20 year build-out, Ben said they would release names in Jan, then June and now infinity is anyone's guess.  

Colliers projects no new office construction in the next 12-24 months in their Q1 report. Same could be said for retail and residential. The market has essentially flat-lined in Columbia.  

[carolinagarnet]

2 hours ago, mpretori said:

1. Park 7 got design approval and started construction. 1 month after starting, they up and left. Took all their equipment and haven't seen anyone on site since. Just a hole there now. 

2. Kline themselves stated they would start construction in June 2016, this has not happened because they havent sold a single sq ft of retail or office space. 

3. Bull street, while may be doing utility relocation, is behind the mayors own projections. Even though it's a 20 year build-out, Ben said they would release names in Jan, then June and now infinity is anyone's guess.  

Colliers projects no new office construction in the next 12-24 months in their Q1 report. Same could be said for retail and residential. The market has essentially flat-lined in Columbia.  

When you say Park 7, I assume you mean the University SC Tower on Assembly, across from the State House? They were on the tail end of the student housing boom and are aiming for the higher end of the market, so it wouldn't surprise me if they are reevaluating their decision to build. Keep in mind they scaled down the project after the uproar about the building on south Main, though of course they attributed it to buying additional land.

At any rate, it might be a bit premature to claim that Columbia has flat-lined. The city has seen over $1.5B in announcements in less than five years (not including Bull Street). Consider how unparalleled that level of growth is, not just in South Carolina, but in any city of Columbia's size. There is still plenty of room for growth- just maybe not at such the same pace. It appears that Kroger in Olympia is on track, the Canalside expansion sailed through, there are still several projects under construction (Federal Realty's conversion downtown for one), and some pent up demand at USC. Summer is also the most popular time for major announcements and we are just now getting into the season. No need for any dire projections yet.

[SouthernBorn]

1. Park 7 got design approval and started construction. 1 month after starting, they up and left. Took all their equipment and haven't seen anyone on site since. Just a hole there now. 

2. Kline themselves stated they would start construction in June 2016, this has not happened because they havent sold a single sq ft of retail or office space. 

3. Bull street, while may be doing utility relocation, is behind the mayors own projections. Even though it's a 20 year build-out, Ben said they would release names in Jan, then June and now infinity is anyone's guess.  

Colliers projects no new office construction in the next 12-24 months in their Q1 report. Same could be said for retail and residential. The market has essentially flat-lined in Columbia.  

I'm pretty sure I have more insider information than you and I'm biting my lip on some other things coming to Columbia. But I'll let you keep your skepticism.

[urbanlover568]

26 minutes ago, carolinagarnet said:

When you say Park 7, I assume you mean the University SC Tower on Assembly, across from the State House? They were on the tail end of the student housing boom and are aiming for the higher end of the market, so it wouldn't surprise me if they are reevaluating their decision to build. Keep in mind they scaled down the project after the uproar about the building on south Main, though of course they attributed it to buying additional land.

At any rate, it might be a bit premature to claim that Columbia has flat-lined. The city has seen over $1.5B in announcements in less than five years (not including Bull Street). Consider how unparalleled that level of growth is, not just in South Carolina, but in any city of Columbia's size. There is still plenty of room for growth- just maybe not at such the same pace. It appears that Kroger in Olympia is on track, the Canalside expansion sailed through, there are still several projects under construction (Federal Realty's conversion downtown for one), and some pent up demand at USC. Summer is also the most popular time for major announcements and we are just now getting into the season. No need for any dire projections yet.

Yea, that's what I think also. Usc just raised tuition as well. But like I said before, bull street has to be a suscess or the city will fail. So much has been staked on this. I'm leaning towards fail. The broken promises is not good whichever way you look at it.

[carolinagarnet]

30 minutes ago, mpretori said:

Yea, that's what I think also. Usc just raised tuition as well. But like I said before, bull street has to be a suscess or the city will fail. So much has been staked on this. I'm leaning towards fail. The broken promises is not good whichever way you look at it.

I don't think Bull Street will fail- I just think it may not look exactly like the photos. There is plenty of need for retail downtown and Kline aside, not much inventory coming onto the market. Regardless of whether Hughes has as many retailers as he claims, he should have enough to build out a property or two. The big concern in my mind is office space- there simply is not much pent up demand. I foresee Hughes developing a retail center a la Sandhills with a few residential properties before turning it over to a large scale single family developer like a KB Homes. Not exactly the vision Hughes has laid out, but still development for development's sake.

[growingup15]

11 hours ago, SouthernBorn said:

I'm pretty sure I have more insider information than you and I'm biting my lip on some other things coming to Columbia. But I'll let you keep your skepticism.

I havr Insider Information also and I should have my insider reply to me either Today or Tommorow and we will have our answer ok.