Where is the next great downtown development?

[jacksonvillian]

Just for discussion...

Where should the next big downtown development be?? Northbank? Southbank? Riverside Avenue? North Stadium Riverfront? or somewhere else??

With everything that is in the pipeline right now, looks like the current focus areas are going to get built-out in the next few years. In order for things to keep moving, another area is going to have to be re-born. I would suspect that an area within proximity of the river would be next...

What say you??

[rav4guy]

A lot of people are looking toward East Jacksonville as the next "IT" area downtown. This is the area of A. Phillip Randolph north of the Matthews bridge overpass. It is a nice stretch of old, unique buildings that sadly fell victim to white flight along with the rest of the downtown area. Very similar in feel to Main St. in Springfield.

Optimistically, this is an awesome area, and with careful planning could be linked up with Springfield to the west. But, I also can't put too much emphasis on the need for development in LaVilla as well. This area is so much more accessible already, and with sooooo much empty promise...

Only time will tell.

[bobliocatt]

As of right now, there's plenty of room for more development in the Northbank. Imo, the city's focus should get a lot smaller and continue to concentrate on attracting dense development in the core and along Main Street to combine the redeveloping Springfield community with downtown to create one single large urban district.

[Lunican]

An entertainment and shopping complex in LaVilla would have such a huge impact on downtown. Its long overdue. Other cities have gotten it done, why can't Jax?

[Urban_Legend]

I think Springfield is IT, though it's a very slow process. If Springfield was a waterfront neighborhood like Riverside and San Marco, it would surely speed up the process...

[Lunican]

What is going on in Springfield is amazing. I am hoping for a Publix shopping center in Springfield just like the one in Riverside.

[Viper]

An entertainment and shopping complex in LaVilla would have such a huge impact on downtown. Its long overdue. Other cities have gotten it done, why can't Jax?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. Brooklyn could fit that as well.

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

I think that it will be on the Northbank, with the present downtown on the Northbank filling in with great density; but I also think that the LaVilla and Brooklyn areas of the Northbank will fill in with a sort of "new" or "secondary" downtown, similar to what Miami done South of the Miami River.

I can envision 30 to 50 foot towers soaring in this area (not that many because the area is relatively small) with added shopping, entertainment, etc. to complement the residential and commercial high-rises.

I am hoping that the present downtown on the Northbank fills in with additional residential and commercial buildings and towers, and that developers see the enormous potential in LaVilla and Brooklyn.

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

[bobliocatt]

I would like to see most new towers rise, as infill projects in the Northbank and Southbank, while outlying neighborhoods, such as East Jax, the Cathedral District, LaVilla and Brooklyn fill in with more low-to- mid-rise townhouse and rowhouse projects. The primary connector between downtown and Riverside would be a pedestrian friendly Park Street, while Hendricks and San Marco Blvd would be the pedestrian friendly connectors to San Marco.

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

I would like to see most new towers rise, as infill projects in the Northbank and Southbank, while outlying neighborhoods, such as East Jax, the Cathedral District, LaVilla and Brooklyn fill in with more low-to- mid-rise townhouse and rowhouse projects.  The primary connector between downtown and Riverside would be a pedestrian friendly Park Street, while Hendricks and San Marco Blvd would be the pedestrian friendly connectors to San Marco.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you would like to see mid-risers, talls and supertalls restricted to the present Northbank and Southbank downtown area, and low-rise residential gracing the out-embracing neighborhoods as you depicted above (San Marco, Brooklyn, Hendricks, Riverside, Lavilla, Eastside).

Sounds good to me, but I want to see more scrapers in some of the nearby neighborhoods such as LaVilla, Brooklyn, and Eastside in the area of the Shipyards, Tallyrand, etc.

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

[bobliocatt]

^I'd like to see us take a step out of St. Petersburg's & Orlando's booms by seeing more concentrated high density urban developments packed side-by-side in the core, instead of being spread out around town. Then once the core has become packed and vibrant, then see more development move on to the surrounding areas. I'd like to see the core take on a New Orleans or DC scene, at street level, instead of an Atlanta or Charlotte, both of which make strong skyline statements, but still fail in the urbanity department.

[Viper]

I too would love to see a shift in density. I'll give the Southbank credit for working toward it.

Distant views of DT should appear conal or mountain like. Foot hills to the outside slopping higher toward the center with the core being the peak. Building talls outside of that cone shape looks odd (Southbank aside...we can simply have two mountains.).

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

I too would love to see a shift in density.  I'll give the Southbank credit for working toward it.

Distant views of DT should appear conal or mountain like.  Foot hills to the outside slopping higher toward the center with the core being the peak. Building talls outside of that cone shape looks odd (Southbank aside...we can simply have two mountains.).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, Atlanta is a perfect example of that. Atlanta was doing good until some idiot decided to build some super talls outside of the cone.

I must say that New York City is a perfect example of still working this cone concept but to the fullest; i.e., two downtowns but still working toward the "mountain" or "cone" concept; working the slope from the ends to the peak in the middle!

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

[urbanjacksonville]

I think Jacksonville is in a great position to learn from other city's mistakes. Even though our spawl is pretty extensive it is not as bad as orlando or atlanta. Hopefully these urban redevelopment projects will encourage people to mave back in towards the center of town and keep the sprawl in check.

In terms of the next great downtown development once springfield/east jax and the stadium districts are developed look for people to start moving out from there east to the river, tallyrand, and west into durkeeville. I think Durkeeville has great potential due to its proximity to Stanton High School and Springfield.

[BosTech]

Sprawl?

Well think about it....City of Jacksonville is almost as big as METRO Atlanta landwise.

Jacksonville is alredy "spread out" as other metros (not cities),so it takes lot more for Jax to develop into urban city,but we will get there.

[bobliocatt]

Well think about it....City of Jacksonville is almost as big as METRO Atlanta landwise.

We're not that bad. Metro Atlanta swallows nearly 1/4 of the State of Georgia. Jax is only spread out, because its a consolidated city. However, compared to other metros, such as Tampa Bay, Atlanta, Orlando, we don't have anywhere near their amount of sprawl.

In terms of the next great downtown development once springfield/east jax and the stadium districts are developed look for people to start moving out from there east to the river, tallyrand, and west into durkeeville. I think Durkeeville has great potential due to its proximity to Stanton High School and Springfield.

Durkeeville has a lot of potential. Its got several unique areas in its borders, including the city's only inner city college (Edward Waters), a historic baseball stadium (Jackie Robinson even played for the Negro League team there), the remains of Jax Beer's old brewery, gridded streets, high population density, the farmers market and even an old warehouse section that would make a cool loft or art district.

Btw, since you mentioned Tallyrand, I was looking at the old Ford Plant today. That thing would make a great farmers market/cruise ship terminal. Hopefully the Jax Port Authority will reconsider bringing in a cruise ship terminal closer to downtown that focuses more on the smaller ships, that can make it under the Dames Point.

[scongro]

I agree, I think it would make a great cruise terminal as well. It would set a nice border between the sports complex area and the industrial area.

[vicupstate]

In terms of the next great downtown development once springfield/east jax and the stadium districts are developed look for people to start moving out from there east to the river, tallyrand, and west into durkeeville. I think Durkeeville has great potential due to its proximity to Stanton High School and Springfield.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What with Springfield, Riverside and San Marco largely out of the price range of many people, what is everyone's best bet for the next neighborhood to gentrify? I need to get more familiar with Durkeeville. I have seen very little of it, but I was pleasantly surprised in my one real visit. I wish they would change the name, it sounds like a separate town altogether with the "ville". Plus it doesn't exactly have a pleasant "ring" to it.

I have toured Murray Hill a little, but I must have missed the nicer streets. I was not too impressed, but I know the area has appreciated well in recent years.

Thoughts, opinions?

[bobliocatt]

What with Springfield, Riverside and San Marco largely out of the price range of many people, what is everyone's best bet for the next neighborhood to gentrify?

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

Imo, your best bet is probably Murray Hill or East Jacksonville.  I'd rate Murray Hill over East Jax, because the housing stock is better and well maintained.  Brooklyn and LaVilla are closer to the core, but Brooklyn's revitalization is still at least 15 years away and its too late for LaVilla, ever being much more than a suburban office park.  Plus the city won't sell you any land over there anyways.

When you come down later this month, I'll have to give you a little tour of Durkeeville.  Although Durkeeville has potential, I don't think it will see much redevelopment anytime soon, because its considered the heart of North Jax (the hood) and its cut off from the rest of the city by railyards, I-95 and MLK Parkway downtown and Springfield.  Other than that, it provides the closest scene to how vibrant old Jax used to be.  People use the sidewalks (at least on Mrytle Avenue), several old retail buildings are occupied with businesses and most of its old housing stock still remains.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In my opinion, Murray Hill is too far away and removed from downtown and the central core. I still like my bets on Brooklyn, LaVilla, Eastside (including Tallyrand), and San Marco. I disagree with the point that the City is not willing to sell any land in LaVilla and its only suited for an Office Park, and Brooklyn is so far deteriorated or too far gone that its revitalization is 15 years away. What basis do you have for supporting such an assumption oh Grand Wizard of Urban Planet?

Anyway, I feel that Jax will soon explode, and when it does, the City will be ready to accomodate whatever land is available for that explosion, regardless of price, deterioration, or other negative factors. If Miami did it, so can we!

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

[bobliocatt]

In my opinion, Murray Hill is too far away and removed from downtown and the central core.  I still like my bets on Brooklyn, LaVilla, Eastside (including Tallyrand), and San Marco.  I disagree with the point that the City is not willing to sell any land in LaVilla and its only suited for an Office Park, and Brooklyn is so far deteriorated or too far gone that its revitalization is 15 years away.  What basis do you have for supporting such an assumption oh Grand Wizard of Urban Planet?

Here's my opinion on these hoods and my reasoning for them:

LaVilla

It was bad enough when the city when in during the 1990's and totally wiped out an urban neighborhood and all the rich history connected with it. The death blow, imo, has been the decision to piecemeal most to the vacant land to developers who have built suburban office complexes on key intersections. Other negative factors include the decision to cut off the street grid to construct the LaVilla School of Arts, the expansion of homeless shelters and the rejection of the LaVilla Square townhome project last year. The courthouse fiasco alos clouds the future of this former neighborhood. Today, the remaining vacant lots are too sparsely located to build any viable urban community, without demolishing some of the recently built structures. I also don't expect an un-funded proposed transportation terminal (which won't be built for at least 10 years itself) to turn things around anytime soon.

Brooklyn

Imo, nice location, but not much building stock left. Plus the lots currently available are overpriced for a neighborhood that the city still doesn't exactly know what it wants to do yet. The new freeway, we once called Riverside Avenue and its rentention ponds don't do it any favors, as well. The only way Brooklyn comes back within the next 10 years is if one large company purchases the entire hood (which is pretty complicated with all the multiple land owners) and redevelops it, themselves. When you combine all of these facts together it adds up to a neighborhood not ready to be the next spot.

Murray Hill

Its location to Avondale and Riverside and affordability are already attracting young families. Edgewood Drive, at the heart of this community is already a fairly urban corridor. The neighborhood also has a decent housing stock consisting of modest brick bungalows and duplex apartments. Edgewood's future streetscaping project and the rising of home values in Avondale. Riverside and Five Points, will only continue to push people that way. Another positive, is that there are now large roads or expressways cutting inside its boundaries, yet it's still offers direct access to I-10, Cassat and Roosevelt.

Tallyrand

Don't expect to see anything there soon other than more industrial port related development. Not much to explain, but I just don't see CSX, Jax Port Authority, Southeast Toyota, Owens Corning and other industrial companies selling off their profitable industries anytime soon. Other than most of the land being heavily polluted over the years, its also cut off from the core by the MLK Expressway and the Matthews Bridge.

San Marco

??? Its already a vibrant neighborhood. You won't see any gentrification going on there. Only more expensive urban infill in the Hendricks Avenue corridor.

Hopefully, this will help clear up my point of view. It would be great to see LaVilla and Brooklyn become the next spot, but don't hold your breath anytime soon.

Anyway, I feel that Jax will soon explode, and when it does, the City will be ready to accomodate whatever land is available for that explosion, regardless of price, deterioration, or other negative factors.  If Miami did it, so can we!

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The city is already exploding. Btw, with all the development that has taken place in Miami over the last 10-15 years, it still hasn't truly made it to inner city hoods like Little Haiti, Liberty City and Overtown (although Overtown has recently been discovered). If it has taken these Miami hoods a while, I wouldn't expect much more out of Jax's hoods.

[FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER]

Here's my opinion on these hoods and my reasoning for them:

LaVilla

It was bad enough when the city when in during the 1990's and totally wiped out an urban neighborhood and all the rich history connected with it.  The death blow, imo, has been the decision to piecemeal most to the vacant land to developers who have built suburban office complexes on key intersections.  Other negative factors include the decision to cut off the street grid to construct the LaVilla School of Arts, the expansion of homeless shelters and the rejection of the LaVilla Square townhome project last year.  The courthouse fiasco alos clouds the future of this former neighborhood.  Today, the remaining vacant lots are too sparsely located to build any viable urban community, without demolishing some of the recently built structures.  I also don't expect an un-funded proposed transportation terminal (which won't be built for at least 10 years itself) to turn things around anytime soon.

Brooklyn

Imo, nice location, but not much building stock left.  Plus the lots currently available are overpriced for a neighborhood that the city still doesn't exactly know what it wants to do yet.  The new freeway, we once called Riverside Avenue and its rentention ponds don't do it any favors, as well.  The only way Brooklyn comes back within the next 10 years is if one large company purchases the entire hood (which is pretty complicated with all the multiple land owners) and redevelops it, themselves.  When you combine all of these facts together it adds up to a neighborhood not ready to be the next spot. 

Murray Hill

Its location to Avondale and Riverside and affordability are already attracting young families.  Edgewood Drive, at the heart of this community is already a fairly urban corridor.  The neighborhood also has a decent housing stock consisting of modest brick bungalows and duplex apartments.  Edgewood's future streetscaping project and the rising of home values in Avondale. Riverside and Five Points, will only continue to push people that way.  Another positive, is that there are now large roads or expressways cutting inside its boundaries, yet it's still offers direct access to I-10, Cassat and Roosevelt.

Tallyrand

Don't expect to see anything there soon other than more industrial port related development.  Not much to explain, but I just don't see CSX, Jax Port Authority, Southeast Toyota, Owens Corning and other industrial companies selling off their profitable industries anytime soon.  Other than most of the land being heavily polluted over the years, its also cut off from the core by the MLK Expressway and the Matthews Bridge.

San Marco

???  Its already a vibrant neighborhood.  You won't see any gentrification going on there.  Only more expensive urban infill in the Hendricks Avenue corridor.

Hopefully, this will help clear up my point of view.  It would be great to see LaVilla and Brooklyn become the next spot, but don't hold your breath anytime soon.

The city is already exploding.  Btw, with all the development that has taken place in Miami over the last 10-15 years, it still hasn't truly made it to inner city hoods like Little Haiti, Liberty City and Overtown (although Overtown has recently been discovered).  If it has taken these Miami hoods a while, I wouldn't expect much more out of Jax's hoods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, but Miami is working on it, and working on it hard. I've been reading about several plans for Overtown and Liberty City, nothing for Little Haiti unless I am missing something.

But getting back to big Jax, thanks for the overview. But you know as well as I do that stranger things have and can happen with City neighborhoods. Who would have ever thought that Springfield would start to come around like it has with the renovation thing? Those blocks and tracts of land you speak of in LaVilla are small, and some redesigning of the streets and those blocks/land tracts would have to be redone if any major corporations, etc. were interested in constructing scrapers in that area; so I can see your point. But I still don't understand Brooklyn, that is, what's holding it back except for our duh duh City leaders. They just need to come forth with a concrete vision, plan, and then promote and market the area for prospects relative to their vision and plan (seems easy enough for me but hard for them).

Any way, you did it again Grand Wizard. Thanx for the info.

FLORIDA SKYRISE ORDER

[bobliocatt]

But I still don't understand Brooklyn, that is, what's holding it back except for our duh duh City leaders. They just need to come forth with a concrete vision, plan, and then promote and market the area for prospects relative to their vision and plan (seems easy enough for me but hard for them).

Bingo.....because of urban renewal, crime & highway construction, Brooklyn doesn't have much in terms of historical housing or building stock left, its going to take more than the grass roots revitalization efforts that have jump started Springfield, Riverside and Murray Hill. The difference between these hoods and Brooklyn is that their historical building stock has stayed largely intact over the years and they aren't completely cut off from the river and other areas of town by highways and railroads. Imo, with the new 6 lane Riverside Avenue cutting the neighborhood off from the river and all of the I-95/Forest St construction underway, Brooklyn is on hold until a clear vision for its future has been decided by the city.

[urbanjacksonville]

Imo, your best bet is probably Murray Hill or East Jacksonville.