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The Armory Thread


Liamlunchtray

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Thanks guys.  Right now we are pretty close to central Phoenix, just east a little bit.

We're moving because I found a great company in Pawtucket to work for, and also because we just think it would be exciting to live somewhere else and experience a new environment for a change.  Phoenix is beautiful in the winter but in the summertime I would rather be anywhere else!

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Heh -- so the-Mrs.-and-my AZ-to-RI idea is catching! ;) We're right behind you -- planning to absquatulate from Flagstaff next year, when I graduate from NAU, and head for Providence, if all goes well. I have to admit, I'll miss the weather up here, and the dark skies at night. But other than that, this place'll look great in the rear-view mirror!

Urb

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The WBNA met last night to hear from Armory Properties on a proposal for 82-for-sale apartments at the corner of Winter and West Fountain Streets.  Durkee Brown is the architect.  In their presentation, AP stated that about 55% would sell for under $299,000.  I believe the building is 5 stories, brick fa
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Of course, $299k is decidedly unaffordable to many, so we'll have to see how far under some of their units come in at.

I'd be happy with 10%-15% under $200k...

But overall a very good project for the area.

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They are proposing just under 10% affordable -- 8 units out of 82. 4 of these will target those making 60% of the median income, and 4 will target those making 80%. I think they can do better -- those extra units don't even make up the variance they need (they're asking for a bonus of 9 units) and they're pretty small. But ... its something, and the 60% level is hard to come by usually. Generally, I think its a good development for an area that has been largely ignored.

Regarding the retail, this is actually pretty close to the Westminster Street shops -- White Electric, Abode, etc. They said the sidewalk is wider than required there to provide space for restaurants with outdoor seating.

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Regarding the retail, this is actually pretty close to the Westminster Street shops -- White Electric, Abode, etc.  They said the sidewalk is wider than required there to provide space for restaurants with outdoor seating.

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It juste seems like its kind of hidden away. It's not like West Fountain gets much through traffic. Which corner of Winter/West Fountain is this on? What is there currently?

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It's a slightly odd area for retail, but it sits in the center of a giant block flanked by Dean, Westminster, Knight, and Broadway. As we see more infill, especially along the Service Road, we should see a pretty hefty population density in that area. Certainly a corner grocery store would do well. A restaurant/coffee shop that can get a good enough buzz going will attract people from the immediate area and beyond. If there were a good breakfast place there, I'd make the walk from Atwells. A restaurant, diner, coffee shop would also get a lot of traffic from the Public Safety Complex.

It would help if Winter Street could be connected to Belknap Street, then the area would be able to be accessed directly from Carpenter. Winter Street should also be improved with good sidewalks and adequate lighting to let people on Westminster know that this is an important street, and worth a quick walk down.

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Interesting article. This area really needs the development.

I thought this was an interesting quote: "...commission studies of how the project would affect shading in the residential neighborhood and traffic."

There are two things that always strike me about such statements. First, shading? The WBNA is ready to oppose a project because of shading? Sigh...

The traffic issue I always find surprising also. For all these people who want to live in urban, walkable neighborhoods, they seem quite concerned how traffic is in their areas.

I drive through this region every day. Traffic volume is quite high, but it's from people driving through the area, not traffic from within. Some traffic actually for this area, with it as a destination, would be refreshing in my opinion...

The Armory folks have been working with Wayland Sq on the Katherine Gibbs condos as well. They must have tremendous patience, as if I had to work with all these neighborhood groups (with the quality, or lack thereof, of "input" that these groups can give), I'd be tearing my hair out on a daily basis.

- Garris

PS: I wish Providence would hurry up with more urban friendly zoning, as all these great ideas for projects require variances for things like height that will hopefully be fixed in the revisions.

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Are the East Siders sponsoring NIMBY seminars on the West Side or something?

There are some valid concerns, but my god. Why do all these people live in the city if they hate city living so much?

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Oh come on.

This was hardly NIMBYism. Even remotely. This is the whole freakin point of the PROCESS.

Why do you think we have a CITY PLAN COMMISSION, or zoning board of review, or Capitol Center Commission, etc.? To discuss the issues and work them out to get the best possible development for development that will, like the best buildings in town, be around for HUNDREDS OF YEARS. Its really that simple, and certainly not a bad thing.

When you are talking HUNDREDS OF YEARS, you better get it right. And as we know, many developers in town (Paolino anyone? but also many others) need all the help (oversight) they can get to do the right thing for our city.

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From reading the article, I think the biggest opposition to this plan is the demolition of the buildings. Both WBNA and the residents in the area want to see the facades of the buildings preserved.

I dont know the structural integrity of these buildings and dont know what can be preserved or not. But based on what Armory Revivial has done in the rest of their projects, they are certainly concerned with preserving character rather than building stuff that mars the landscape.

Traffic should be a concern, whats the point of having people come to the area if its a horror show to get in/out. Not everyone can and/or wants to walk there.

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Oh come on.

This was hardly NIMBYism. Even remotely. This is the whole freakin point of the PROCESS.

I agree that this wasn't necessarily NIMBY-ism, but...

Why do you think we have a CITY PLAN COMMISSION, or zoning board of review, or Capitol Center Commission, etc.? To discuss the issues and work them out to get the best possible development for development that will, like the best buildings in town, be around for HUNDREDS OF YEARS. Its really that simple, and certainly not a bad thing.

... I don't think the current City Planning Commission, Capitol Center Commission, etc are any better than the neighborhood groups. If they were really so great, why do we have bland designs for G-Tech and Waterplace? If they were so great, how come the developer of the strip plaza (with parking in front) was allowed to drop such a structure in the middle of otherwise urban streetfront friendly Hope Village. If they were so effective, how come we have a huge strip plaza (Staples, Whole Foods) sitting on North Main?

No, the neighborhood groups have selfish interests that aren't necessarily better for the city as a whole (although the WBNA seems to be the best of these as opposed to, oh, I don't know, perhaps the dreaded Fox Pointers and Friends of India Park folks). In my lifetime, I've seen lots of projects changed as a result of community input, but rarely made better as a whole, and certainly rarely made better for 100 years.

I think the Katherine Gibbs condo is a great example. While the local groups succeeded in getting more greenery around the proposed building (which it needed), the neighborhood crusade to its cut height I think has resulted in a less attractive, more busy, less symmetrical, more squat structure that lacks the majesty of its taller early design. While everyone is concerned about light and shrubs, everyone has ignored the fairly pedestrian unfriendly relationship of the building to the streetscape and its isolating main entrance.

What we need are urban, and not suburban, city standards of design across the community that are expected and enforced and not at the whims of neighborhood groups, which we currently don't have at all and even when we do, we're willing to discard them (for example, G-Tech in the Capitol district).

Check out this post by Inga Saffron on her blog from the architecture critic (who seems to have the right idea) of the Philadelphia Inquirer (http://changingskyline.blogspot.com) regarding Vancouver:

"How does Vancouver do it?

Vancouver has doubled its downtown population in the past 20 years, mainly by building tall condo towers. But instead of being stressed by the rapid growth and high-density construction, the city has become more livable, more interesting and more fun than ever. Credit goes to the city's director of planning, Larry Beasely.

Beasley, who gave a talk Monday at the University of Pennsylvania, is a stickler for hands-on planning. "Having a developer present something to us and having us react - that simply doesn't work," he said. His department has spent countless hours working out design standards, so developers know in advance what will fly and what won't.

Here's a quick list of what Vancouver planners demand as a starting point:

-Elegant, thin towers, with floor plates no bigger than 6,800 square feet.

-To ease the transition to the street, most condo towers need to have a low-rise base comprised of townhouses, shops or low-rise apartments.

-Towers must be placed at wide intervals to preserve views of Vancouver's stunning waterfront and mountain scenery.

-ALL, yes ALL, parking must be underground. Imagine that in a downtown surrounded by water. There are dozens of new condo towers and not one of them sits on a parking deck.

-Between 20 and 33 percent of all new condo units must be set aside as affordable housing.

-Whenever a neighborhood begins to experience a building boom, city planners rush in to assess the need for parks, bike paths, playgrounds, schools and daycare.

Coming from Philadelphia, it sounds impossible that a city could demand so much and get developers to comply. But it works, Beasley said, because the demands are consistent. He also believes that good urban design begets good cities. "People will not be drawn to cities that are ugly or uncomfortable. They'll vote with their feet," he said.

Right now, Vancouver's downtown population is 85,000, exactly the same as Philadelphia's Center City. Wanna bet which city pulls ahead?"

When you are talking HUNDREDS OF YEARS, you better get it right. And as we know, many developers in town (Paolino anyone? but also many others) need all the help (oversight) they can get to do the right thing for our city.

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The above process would also protect us from the exploitative Paolinos of the world...

- Garris

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Thank god I live in the "hip" neighborhood...

1266 Westminster

$299k is STEEP.

Looks good though. Overall nice addition. They put these things up FAST!

I check out the progress on this every day. Ive been amazed at how fast it went up - Looks reasonably well built though.

Now if someone would PLEASE develop the store front church next door. I'm sure Im being an elitist white bread snot, but I hate it. They dont use their parking lot and park right up to the corner at harrison making it impossible to turn out onto Westminster, plus theyre always blocking the street chit-chatting in cars and whatnot and getting aggravated if you try to get them to move it along. I am so not a fan.

Liam

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I check out the progress on this every day. Ive been amazed at how fast it went up - Looks reasonably well built though.

plus theyre always blocking the street chit-chatting in cars and whatnot and getting aggravated if you try to get them to move it along. I am so not a fan.

Liam

Please use caution when you try to get these people to move their cars out of the way. People have been shot for far less. Your not in Kansas Toto!

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Thank god I live in the "hip" neighborhood...

1266 Westminster

$299k is STEEP.

Looks good though. Overall nice addition. They put these things up FAST!

This building looks great.....However, I don't see why anyone would live there. There are no convenience stores unless you walk to the Spanish market where nobody speaks English way down the road.They closed the laundromat and the salon. And what is proposed? A gift shop? This neighborhood lacks basic amenities. Armory Revival Co. comes up with a great plan to anchor the neighborhood with a well proposed development and here comes the WBNA opposing every facet of the project. What is reasonable on Upper Westminster and your neighborhood Kari? Isn't Kari Lang the same spokesoman for WBNA from years ago when they were trying to find tenants for the actual Armory building? I remember her being incredibly annoying and objecting to any form of reuse that was proposed. I can appreciate your civic pride, but this is ridiculous.The Armory is still vacant. The neighborhood definitely has a pulse now, but still has heart problems. Westminster is lined with old ugly gas stations and although there are many buildings of historical character in the area, West Fountain and much of Westminster from Citizens to Dexter Street is nnot historically significant. The Louttit Laundry building is in the same class. This is a very historic building, but has been the subject of arson , vandalism, and decay for a long time. The entryway for your neighborhood is non-existent and needs much attention.Louttit Laundry has set vacant for over 2 decades and it continues to rot. No developer unless they receive some type of government financing will ever touch that parcel . And although well-intentioned, as long as radical idealists populate the Armory, the Louttit will sit there for another 20 years rotting away.I believe that the Armory Revival has a great plan and it would only better your area.I would love to save the Louttit too, but it has to go as well.It is beyond repair.

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Oh come on.

This was hardly NIMBYism. Even remotely. This is the whole freakin point of the PROCESS.

Why do you think we have a CITY PLAN COMMISSION, or zoning board of review, or Capitol Center Commission, etc.? To discuss the issues and work them out to get the best possible development for development that will, like the best buildings in town, be around for HUNDREDS OF YEARS. Its really that simple, and certainly not a bad thing.

When you are talking HUNDREDS OF YEARS, you better get it right. And as we know, many developers in town (Paolino anyone? but also many others) need all the help (oversight) they can get to do the right thing for our city.

I said there were some valid concerns. But let's talk about 100 year problems for real. Traffic. People need to realize something about traffic. It's a city, it's going to have traffic, if you can't handle that, leave. What's the hundred year problem? The fact that our entire American society is constructed around the automobile and $2 gas. Let's all wait until Rita slams Houston and the predicted $5 mark is hit, then we'll see the mistake, at least traffic will be better.

When a development is proposed is not the time to discuss traffic if it is a real concern. The time to discuss traffic is always. Blocking individual developments in the name of traffic is ridiculous. The traffic problem lies in our poorly maintained streets, our lack of signage, our malfunctioning and non-existant traffic signals, our poor pedestrian conectivity between neighborhoods (West Side to Downcity, Federal Hill to Smith Hill, Smith Hill to Downtown...), our lack of parking or lack of well marked parking (how much traffic on Atwells is caused by people circling for parking), our poor drivers and lack of enforcement, our joke of a transit system, and our societal entitlement that tells us that we should be able to park within 10 feet of our destination on demand... If neighborhood groups really had a concern about traffic they would be working to tackle these issues, not waiting until there is a proposal they don't like and crying traffic.

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Reading the Providence Phoenix article it does seem that the WBNA is most concerned about the buildings being torn down. Now while I am all for preserving historic buildings, I am not sure what historical significance these buildings have. Does anyone know?

Are they truly historic and preservation worthy, or can they be torn down to build what could be a new historical turning point for the Armory District in general and that neighborhood specifically?

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<snip> This neighborhood lacks basic amenities. Armory Revival Co. comes up with a great plan to anchor the neighborhood with a well proposed development and here comes the WBNA opposing every facet of the project. What is reasonable on Upper Westminster and your neighborhood...? <snip>

I can appreciate your civic pride, but this is ridiculous.The Armory is still vacant. The neighborhood definitely has a pulse now, but still has heart problems. Westminster is lined with old ugly gas stations and although there are many buildings of historical character in the area, West Fountain and much of Westminster from Citizens to Dexter Street is nnot historically significant... No developer unless they receive some type of government financing will ever touch that parcel .

And although well-intentioned, as long as radical idealists populate the Armory, the Louttit will sit there for another 20 years rotting away.I believe that the Armory Revival has a great plan and it would only better your area.I would love to save the Louttit too, but it has to go as well.It is beyond repair.

Here here! This is something that worries me both short term and long term about Providence. There is the wide spread perception that the city needs to improve and get better, but even the most mild and benign of development suggestions sets off waves of protest from every one from open space advocates to civil rights groups.

You have the Phoenix, which usually does OK reporting on these issues, irresponsibly (in my opinion) throwing around terms like "wave of gentrification" and "mounting frustration for some about the West Side

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Reading the Providence Phoenix article it does seem that the WBNA is most concerned about the buildings being torn down. Now while I am all for preserving historic buildings, I am not sure what historical significance these buildings have. Does anyone know?

Are they truly historic and preservation worthy, or can they be torn down to build what could be a new historical turning point for the Armory District in general and that neighborhood specifically?

I'm going to drive back there today. I drive through this area frequently, and frankly, I can't recall one building that jumped out at me and said, "Wow, that's great. I wish someone could do something with that." What I normally think driving through there is, "Man, what a mess. What is it going to take for this area to ever improve?"

- Garris

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