The Armory Thread

[Cotuit]

There's a misplaced frustration among residents. The market is what the market is, and if the market supports $300k condos on West Fountain Street, than that is what the price is going to be. One can't expect private developers to take a hit. But the fact of the matter is that this project will have an affordable component, will the very poor be able to live there, no. But will the marginally middle-class such as myself be able to do it, I think so. The misplaced frustration is the fact that there is very little to nothing coming out of City Hall and the State House addressing the affordability issue. Don't blame private developers for wanting to make money, blame your elected representatives for not focusing on the affordability issue.

And blocking new development takes supply and demand out of the equation. Our state and city population is growing, we need more housing. How is blocking developments going to help the housing crunch?

[Garris]

And blocking new development takes supply and demand out of the equation. Our state and city population is growing, we need more housing. How is blocking developments going to help the housing crunch?

Exactly. That's the hillarious thing. For every development that is blocked, it just makes it easier for the next proposal to ask for more!

- Garris

[basachs]

I'm going to drive back there today. I drive through this area frequently, and frankly, I can't recall one building that jumped out at me and said, "Wow, that's great. I wish someone could do something with that." What I normally think driving through there is, "Man, what a mess. What is it going to take for this area to ever improve?"

- Garris

Okay, glad to hear I am not the only one who thinks that when driving through that area. The WBNA is in the development business now too right? I wonder if they can really play both sides of the fence and be objective. If they took on this project they might see some of the financial realities of rehabbing a building with dubious histrorical significance vs rebuilding the area with new buildings that keep in character with the area.

[eltron]

Blah de blah.

Tha same thing, over and over.

Read very carefully, its always the same old stuff. Nobody is even trying to block this project, and it is very clear, even in somewhat poorly reported articles, that people talking about this particular project are only looking to make it better and more neighborhood friendly, not "block" it.

Now I am sorry some people here have had bad experiences in Wayland Square or Fox Point or with Miriam Hospital or something, but lets just stick to the facts and quit making constant generalizations and get panties all up in a twist about the NORMAL state of doing the development business (from someone in the business). Its all a part of the game, and the good developers know it and work with it and ultimately get more rewarding and better performing projects.

And Cotuit, I agree with every single thing you say about the traffic issues. no beef there.

[eltron]

Okay, glad to hear I am not the only one who thinks that when driving through that area. The WBNA is in the development business now too right? I wonder if they can really play both sides of the fence and be objective. If they took on this project they might see some of the financial realities of rehabbing a building with dubious histrorical significance vs rebuilding the area with new buildings that keep in character with the area.

While most of the buildings in the area are pretty crappy light industrial buildings, there are two that are part of the project that are most definitely significant and worthy of redevelopment. But more than anything, the objection is a policy-based one that is concerned with precedent in tearing significant buildings down. The more people do it, the more people want to do and the more ammunition they have to support doing it.

[basachs]

Eltron, do you know if those are the two that are being torn down, or are they part of the ones that were being preserved?

I hear your point about precedent though. What makes these two buildings significant historical wise? I don't think the development will be blocked. People just love to churn their wheels though when a development project raises eyebrows. If it is not universally loved, it makes good copy. Bad developer versus caring, sensitive neighborhood association. what makes this particular project somewhat interesting is that WBNA and Armory Revival are usually on the same side...

[Cotuit]

While most of the buildings in the area are pretty crappy light industrial buildings, there are two that are part of the project that are most definitely significant and worthy of redevelopment. But more than anything, the objection is a policy-based one that is concerned with precedent in tearing significant buildings down. The more people do it, the more people want to do and the more ammunition they have to support doing it.

I'm willing to hear any discussion on the historic merits of a structure and the need/desire to save it. But it seems in this case, Armory cannot afford to redevelop the existing buildings they want to tear down. Maybe they could find a way, but expect the affordability cushion to go out the window if they are forced to renovate. As I understand, these building are in the newly created Historic Industrial Buildings Zone, and as such, any work prompts an automatic review.

In this case, I'd expect more from WBNA. They know how this all works. Get their 'people' to stop throwing out things like traffic and get down to the real issues. I say put WBNA and Armory in a room, have WBNA bring with them their real likes and dislikes and hash it out with Armory. Then come back to the public with their best effort. WBNA and Armory are players on both sides of this debate in various projects, I hope we don't have a future of them duking it out in the press to look forward to.

[eltron]

Eltron, do you know if those are the two that are being torn down, or are they part of the ones that were being preserved?

I hear your point about precedent though. What makes these two buildings significant historical wise? I don't think the development will be blocked. People just love to churn their wheels though when a development project raises eyebrows. If it is not universally loved, it makes good copy. Bad developer versus caring, sensitive neighborhood association. what makes this particular project somewhat interesting is that WBNA and Armory Revival are usually on the same side...

Heres one:

West Fountain Street

I LOVE this building, and actually wanted to buy it when it was on the market, but it was too steep for me.

[Liamlunchtray]

Please use caution when you try to get these people to move their cars out of the way. People have been shot for far less. Your not in Kansas Toto!

They're all wacky born agains that patronize a store front church. I think I can take em :-)

[Recchia]

I said there were some valid concerns. But let's talk about 100 year problems for real. Traffic. People need to realize something about traffic. It's a city, it's going to have traffic, if you can't handle that, leave. What's the hundred year problem? The fact that our entire American society is constructed around the automobile and $2 gas. Let's all wait until Rita slams Houston and the predicted $5 mark is hit, then we'll see the mistake, at least traffic will be better.

Yes! Very well said!

and our societal entitlement that tells us that we should be able to park within 10 feet of our destination on demand...

so damn true, can I tell you that I personally saw three projects (simple sidewalk and/or traffic calming projects) in my short tenure in transportation planning this summer, that were hijacked by local groups and or businesses that were worried about losing one measly on street parking spot, even though the pedestrian improvements to the area would far outweigh the loss of that one stupid spot....ugh...

[virgo20]

I said there were some valid concerns. But let's talk about 100 year problems for real. Traffic. People need to realize something about traffic. It's a city, it's going to have traffic, if you can't handle that, leave. What's the hundred year problem? The fact that our entire American society is constructed around the automobile and $2 gas. Let's all wait until Rita slams Houston and the predicted $5 mark is hit, then we'll see the mistake, at least traffic will be better.

When a development is proposed is not the time to discuss traffic if it is a real concern. The time to discuss traffic is always. Blocking individual developments in the name of traffic is ridiculous. The traffic problem lies in our poorly maintained streets, our lack of signage, our malfunctioning and non-existant traffic signals, our poor pedestrian conectivity between neighborhoods (West Side to Downcity, Federal Hill to Smith Hill, Smith Hill to Downtown...), our lack of parking or lack of well marked parking (how much traffic on Atwells is caused by people circling for parking), our poor drivers and lack of enforcement, our joke of a transit system, and our societal entitlement that tells us that we should be able to park within 10 feet of our destination on demand... If neighborhood groups really had a concern about traffic they would be working to tackle these issues, not waiting until there is a proposal they don't like and crying traffic.

You are 100% right. I like your website too! Welcome to Providence!!

[virgo20]

I'm going to drive back there today. I drive through this area frequently, and frankly, I can't recall one building that jumped out at me and said, "Wow, that's great. I wish someone could do something with that." What I normally think driving through there is, "Man, what a mess. What is it going to take for this area to ever improve?"

- Garris

Exactly!!! Thank-you!!! The amazement comes from people like Kari and her crew who have lived in Providence for less than 10 years but seem to have the key to urban revival at their fingertips...Will somebody shut them up?

[Liamlunchtray]

Exactly!!! Thank-you!!! The amazement comes from people like Kari and her crew who have lived in Providence for less than 10 years but seem to have the key to urban revival at their fingertips...Will somebody shut them up?

I think you guys are being awfully hard on Kari and the WBNA. They do a HUGE amount of great things in this neighborhood and really should be commended for al the time and effort they put in. I'm not sure if I agree with them on opposing the current propsition for west fountain, but they certainly have some valid concerns (primarily whether or not some/all of the existing buildings on the site could be preserved). Also, if you just roll over and dont question the developers on major projects (even if its an ally like Armory Revival) then you end up with developments that dont benefit the community as well as they could. As Eltron mentioned earlier, this is a normal part of the development process. I agree that it can be hard to get people in Providence to agree to change, but then again its because of that that we didnt get completely destroyed by urban revitilization in the 50's like a lot of cities.

Liam

[virgo20]

I think you guys are being awfully hard on Kari and the WBNA. They do a HUGE amount of great things in this neighborhood and really should be commended for al the time and effort they put in. I'm not sure if I agree with them on opposing the current propsition for west fountain, but they certainly have some valid concerns (primarily whether or not some/all of the existing buildings on the site could be preserved). Also, if you just roll over and dont question the developers on major projects (even if its an ally like Armory Revival) then you end up with developments that dont benefit the community as well as they could. As Eltron mentioned earlier, this is a normal part of the development process. I agree that it can be hard to get people in Providence to agree to change, but then again its because of that that we didnt get completely destroyed by urban revitilization in the 50's like a lot of cities.

Liam

I don't know how long you have lived here, but the WBNA has had its nose in every single situation for years. The neighborhood is centered around the Armory and Westminster St. Development proposals have come and gone because of staunch concentric opposition. They had plans to create apartments years ago @ the Louttit complex. Nobody can doubt that the area has great historic character, however, the area is still a ghetto! Period! When something is mentioned in the press @ that area, it always seems that there is a negative perception and/or connotation from the area residents and the WBNA. Why not work with developers on enhancing a project rather than having to object to something? (traffic?) Give me a break!! That's the problem with a lot of people from Providence. You fvking complain about how bad your neighborhood is and how much its changed over the years, but then you complain about development. The Armory area looks like a historical bubble surrounded by the ghetto.Where do you go to the store Liamlunchtray? I'm guessing you don't walk to Cranston St. Where do you buy toilet paper if you run out on a Sunday night? There's nothing on Westminster! The area has so much potential, but is still an underserved ghetto with no gateway, no entrance, and no sense of community.( except for the radical neighborhood activists) The least you could do would be to put up a gate ( like a gated community) to identify where the "hip' people live. ......as of now, nobody can differentiate!! My point is that we should not bring everything to the table as if this were a college debate. They should be asking these developers what could be further brought to the table to enhance their area and surroundings...not arguing about fvking shade and traffic!!!

[Liamlunchtray]

I don't know how long you have lived here, but the WBNA has had its nose in every single situation for years.

Where do you go to the store Liamlunchtray? I'm guessing you don't walk to Cranston St. Where do you buy toilet paper if you run out on a Sunday night? There's nothing on Westminster!

I lived in Rhode Island pretty much my whole life. I have lived in Providence proper for 10 years and I have lived in the Armory for 5. When I need a convenience store I usually goto the Tropical Market on the corner of Westminster and Bridgham. It its late at night I would hit the 7/11 on Cranston street. (I'm not entirely seeing how this relates to the WBNA....

Im still not entirely understanding what the big issue is with WBNA. Is it just that you feel they should have acomplished more by now? I agree that the Armory is kind of a bubble of revitalization surrounded by ghetto, but I don't really see how this is WBNA's fault. Things are definitely expanding from the main base of the armory out towards downtown, and the changes that have happened since we first moved here 5 years ago are pretty great. I feel like there is really some steam behind things at this point.

Do you live in the Armory Virgo? How long have you been here? Was there some personal interaction with WBNA that soured you on them? I always feel really lucky to live in a neighborhood that has a strong community organization like this. I think every neighborhood should have one.

[virgo20]

I lived in Rhode Island pretty much my whole life. I have lived in Providence proper for 10 years and I have lived in the Armory for 5. When I need a convenience store I usually goto the Tropical Market on the corner of Westminster and Bridgham. It its late at night I would hit the 7/11 on Cranston street. (I'm not entirely seeing how this relates to the WBNA....

Im still not entirely understanding what the big issue is with WBNA. Is it just that you feel they should have acomplished more by now? I agree that the Armory is kind of a bubble of revitalization surrounded by ghetto, but I don't really see how this is WBNA's fault. Things are definitely expanding from the main base of the armory out towards downtown, and the changes that have happened since we first moved here 5 years ago are pretty great. I feel like there is really some steam behind things at this point.

Do you live in the Armory Virgo? How long have you been here? Was there some personal interaction with WBNA that soured you on them? I always feel really lucky to live in a neighborhood that has a strong community organization like this. I think every neighborhood should have one.

No. I was born and raised in Providence. I have a lot of civic pride when it comes to my city as a whole. The Armory is a great area with so much potential to be even greater. With a few good projects , mainly at the gateways, ( Westminster and West Fountain ) this area could be great. My issue is that there are too many neighborhood groups that protest in this city rather than coming up with responsible suggestions. The WBNA is not the only one. The Summit, Fox Point, and College Hill organizations have run a gamut about every little thing. It's why No.Main Street has been a barren wasteland for over 20 years!!! The Armory has seen development proposals for the Louttit Complex for years as well as the Armory itself.( 2 very important gateways) Unfortunately, they have never been able to agree to anything . ( parking, shade,height,and my favorite, landscaping???) Developers do not want to sit there and waste time on arguing over annuals or perennials.They will move on to bigger and bighter things elsewhere.When this info comes out in the press, ( Prov. Journal , Phoenix, etc.) it's ALWAYS written as if they are employees on the design team rather than concerned citizens who have questions and civic input. It's very frustrating when I hear people from R.I. slam the judge's gavel with opposition every time change happens. I personally feel its hypocrisy!!

[Liamlunchtray]

No. I was born and raised in Providence. I have a lot of civic pride when it comes to my city as a whole. The Armory is a great area with so much potential to be even greater. With a few good projects , mainly at the gateways, ( Westminster and West Fountain ) this area could be great. My issue is that there are too many neighborhood groups that protest in this city rather than coming up with responsible suggestions. The WBNA is not the only one. The Summit, Fox Point, and College Hill organizations have run a gamut about every little thing. It's why No.Main Street has been a barren wasteland for over 20 years!!! The Armory has seen development proposals for the Louttit Complex for years as well as the Armory itself.( 2 very important gateways) Unfortunately, they have never been able to agree to anything . ( parking, shade,height,and my favorite, landscaping???) Developers do not want to sit there and waste time on arguing over annuals or perennials.They will move on to bigger and bighter things elsewhere.When this info comes out in the press, ( Prov. Journal , Phoenix, etc.) it's ALWAYS written as if they are employees on the design team rather than concerned citizens who have questions and civic input. It's very frustrating when I hear people from R.I. slam the judge's gavel with opposition every time change happens. I personally feel its hypocrisy!!

I certainly agree that nitpicking over minor details is a bad idea (IE Shade or minor landscaping), but at the same time I think that what WBNA has done for the community overall has been a good thing. I dont quite understand what you were saying re: Louttit. Wasnt that project ready to roll when the fire happen? How had WBNA affected it? Also, what were the Armory proposals that they nixed? It may have happened before I active started following the goings on in the neighborhood. They were certainly in full support of the ballot initiative last year. And unless I am mistaken they were also in favor of the Police barracks and the movie studio. The problem there was handing the project to Corrente and not an established studio that had money.

I drove down West Fountain yesterday and aside from that one building that Eltron posted a pic of (which I love) I didnt see much worth saving. I would love it if they could at least save the facade of that building, but even if it was lost I dont think it would be the end of the world. The benefits of the project would certainly overpower the loss of one (not particularly old or historic) building, even if it is really cool looking. I do wish that projects like this were being planned for Westminster rather than an uneventful Industrial area like West Fountain. I wish there was some forward progression at the loft project across from wiggin village on Westminster. I think something like the West Fountain project would be more beneficial to the neighborhood there then it would on West fountain. Instead we just get the "Lofts coming - 2004" sign.

[Garris]

I certainly agree that nitpicking over minor details is a bad idea (IE Shade or minor landscaping), but at the same time I think that what WBNA has done for the community overall has been a good thing.

I know near nothing about the WBNA, but I've heard they have an excellent reputation. That's why I was surprised to read some of those rediculous comments in the articles.

I think the nitpicking and nonsensical opinions are one of the big things that really annoy people like me. I've attended condo meetings and those of the Wayland Sq association against projects like the Katty Gibbs Condos and just have been left scratching my head on some things. For example, many people in my condo say that the new taller condo will lessen the light coming into our own back windows. Well, since we have Northern exposure back windows, how does that work exactly? They say that their view of the sky, which you can now only see over the Katty Gibbs building if you crane you neck waaay up, will be blocked as well. And it goes on and on... Sigh...

I think while many neighborhood groups know a lot about what they don't want in an area, I find others (like occasionally my condo assn and the Wayland Sq group) don't know what they do want except for an absence of what they don't want. At least the WBNA seems to have a proactive, urban vision. That's why I was surprised about the triteness of some of the comments regarding an area that is near a complete loss right now...

I drove down West Fountain yesterday and aside from that one building that Eltron posted a pic of (which I love) I didnt see much worth saving... The benefits of the project would certainly overpower the loss of one (not particularly old or historic) building, even if it is really cool looking.

I did the same drive on Friday, and I felt the same way. Maybe, just maybe that building is worth saving, and nothing else, and if we loose that building in the process of a neighborhood saving (creating?) project, it would be worth the tradeoff... I'd rather see them incorporate it, but if not, no biggie...

I do wish that projects like this were being planned for Westminster rather than an uneventful Industrial area like West Fountain.

Why do you think these projects aren't coming to Westminster?

- Garris

[Liamlunchtray]

Why do you think these projects aren't coming to Westminster?

- Garris

I have no idea to be honest. I thought it was funny that in one of Virgo's posts he(?) mentioned that West Fountain was a gateway to the neighborhood - It is a totally isolated side street tucked away behind the police station. You pretty much only drive down it if you have a need to be there. I don't understand why Westminster isnt booming with new projects. Actually there are quite a few smaller projects going on, but still nothing major yet. I think that one of the benefits of Westminster is that it actually has a decent number of buildings that are kind of throw-aways, which would allow for some demos and new construction to mix in with the rehabs. Broadway on the other hand has so many Historic houses, that there reallly isnt much room for major new construction. I think the retail/condo building at the corner of harrison/westminster is the perfect example of the kind of new, hip buildings that will work wonderfully in this neighborhood. I would love to see someone buy up everything between harrison and dexter street and build a large new project. Condos and retail anyone?

[eltron]

I have no idea to be honest. I thought it was funny that in one of Virgo's posts he(?) mentioned that West Fountain was a gateway to the neighborhood - It is a totally isolated side street tucked away behind the police station. You pretty much only drive down it if you have a need to be there. I don't understand why Westminster isnt booming with new projects. Actually there are quite a few smaller projects going on, but still nothing major yet. I think that one of the benefits of Westminster is that it actually has a decent number of buildings that are kind of throw-aways, which would allow for some demos and new construction to mix in with the rehabs. Broadway on the other hand has so many Historic houses, that there reallly isnt much room for major new construction. I think the retail/condo building at the corner of harrison/westminster is the perfect example of the kind of new, hip buildings that will work wonderfully in this neighborhood. I would love to see someone buy up everything between harrison and dexter street and build a large new project. Condos and retail anyone?

The reason you don't see somthing like this on Westminster is simple: the land area needed for a project of the size economically viable is not available on Westminster (even teardown), and it is on West Fountain. This was a large parcel already assembled that came on the market, and they jumped on it. Transaction costs for smaller parcels is huge and the timing is difficult.

I don't think the building I posted the other day is actually in the project...though it went off the market at the same time as the other parcels. Perhaps Armory bought it too and have something else planned there?

Now, I think people are misunderstanding the point and purpose of the City Plan Commission, the board in question in this latest neighborhood issue. Projects are meant to go before this panel for working out DETAILS, even seemingly annoying ones like traffic and shading, and planting buffers, and brick color. EVERYTHING. Its a part of the process. It identifies issues and the developer works on them. This is why the panel is made up of an architect, an urban planner, a developer, neighborhood advocates, etc. This is exactly why the WBNA raises issues now, and its a part of the process. If the project makes economic sense, the developer works out their issues and it goes through. Everyone happy.

People in the neighborhood, including the WBNA were pissed when the condo tower at Knight Street was proposed because its design was awful, they didn't get a chance to review anything because the land area was just under what was required for City Plan Commission review, and the bomb was dropped at the zoning board of appeals, where it needed variances out the wazoo. Did you notice that there was NO opposition to the Rialto proposal, roughly equivalent in scope and scale to the Knight Street project? Thats because their design was excellent, they went through the process, and they worked through their issues in the proper manner.

[Liamlunchtray]

I don't think the building I posted the other day is actually in the project...though it went off the market at the same time as the other parcels. Perhaps Armory bought it too and have something else planned there?

Thats pretty cool, because it's pretty much the only one of those buildings that seems really worth saving. The rest of them in that immediate area are ok, but nothing to get too wound up about.

also - Thanks for shedding some light on the other side of the debate. Being that I am strictly an amateur enthusiest who has no backround in this stuff, I sometimes feel like I cant call bullcrap when I want to because I dont have all the knowledge to back it up.

Liam

[basachs]

I took a ride by there this morning as well, and it is certainly an area that needs to be rebuilt. I never saw renderings of what the Armory Revival Co was proposing there, has anyone?

Liam, that "condos in 2004" sign you are referring to, what is the history behind that? I saw some graffiti on itt that says " more housing for rich people". A lot of anger in general over the sprucing up of Westminster? I agree with you though that the street has a long ways to go.

[Cotuit]

I have no idea to be honest. I thought it was funny that in one of Virgo's posts he(?) mentioned that West Fountain was a gateway to the neighborhood - It is a totally isolated side street tucked away behind the police station.

Duany's proposals would make it more of a gateway. He proposed re-alligning Washington so that it fed into West Fountain. This would make for a connection to Carpenter, and route traffic along a more attractive route rather than Washington which ends at Knight. I believe he wanted to see some sort of formal square behind the Public Safety Building where the traffic would be re-routed. Combine this with the MetroLofts proposed along the Service Road between Washington and Westminster, and you have the makings for a gateway from Downcity.

Ideally, we'll see Westminster further develop as a gateway as well.

[Liamlunchtray]

Liam, that "condos in 2004" sign you are referring to, what is the history behind that? I saw some graffiti on itt that says " more housing for rich people". A lot of anger in general over the sprucing up of Westminster? I agree with you though that the street has a long ways to go.

I dont know the story on that. It seems like every 6 months or so there will be a little action over there and then it goes dormant again. The developer is Joseph Martino, but I havent been able to track down any info on it at all. Westminster has loads of potential, and a built in customer base. It just needs to get moving.

In other Westminster news - It looks like the Funeral Home with the Diner in the lot is finally starting to get going. They appear to be gutting the beauty shop and I noticed that blinds and whatnot are being taken home in the funeral home too. Its a really great property. Cant wait to see what happens with it.

Liam

[basachs]

I dont know the story on that. It seems like every 6 months or so there will be a little action over there and then it goes dormant again. The developer is Joseph Martino, but I havent been able to track down any info on it at all. Westminster has loads of potential, and a built in customer base. It just needs to get moving.

In other Westminster news - It looks like the Funeral Home with the Diner in the lot is finally starting to get going. They appear to be gutting the beauty shop and I noticed that blinds and whatnot are being taken home in the funeral home too. Its a really great property. Cant wait to see what happens with it.

Liam

Yes I noticed that. I live right around the corner from there. Be nice to just walk to this place. Heard it was a bistro of some sort going into Norma's. Hopefully a nice bar included.