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Katriina would hhave overwhelmed any Presidest, sheesh. No expected the levees to fail. They thought they may be breeched but the ccomplete collapse was a big surprise.

In my opinion, Katrina wasn't the real disaster. Katrina revealed the disaster that was New Orleans. The Democrats ran that city and state for 50 years and look what they turned it into. Poverty run wild. Substandard housing. A permanant under class. And folks have the gall to blame Bush? Amazing.

Katrina was a failure on all levels. I'm not putting all the blame on President Bush, because it's no secret that the local government (Mayor & Governor) should have had the community better prepared. The reaction on the federal level was just as bad as the planning on the local level. There's plenty of blame to go around.

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Katrina was a failure on all levels. I'm not putting all the blame on President Bush, because it's no secret that the local government (Mayor & Governor) should have had the community better prepared. The reaction on the federal level was just as bad as the planning on the local level. There's plenty of blame to go around.

That's the same opinion I have. Even if no one expected the levees to fail (didn't the Discovery channel or something have a special that featured New Orleans as one of those cities where "the worst" was most likely?), the response was pathetic. I recall hearing reports about charities being turned away from areas of Louisiana and Mississippi that were the hardest hit, while FEMA did nothing. The feds (Bush included) kept saying the situtation was under control as everyone was watching it get worse and worse on the news. I believe that past administrations and congresses (all of them democrat and republicans) have refused to fund the strengthening or rebuilding of these levees. It was a ticking time bomb and no one on either side of the aisle, Democrat or Republican did anything to prevent it. As I just said, the response on all levels was pathetic, the charities responded soooo much quicker than the beaurocrats.

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Katriina would hhave overwhelmed any Presidest, sheesh. No expected the levees to fail. They thought they may be breeched but the ccomplete collapse was a big surprise.

In my opinion, Katrina wasn't the real disaster. Katrina revealed the disaster that was New Orleans. The Democrats ran that city and state for 50 years and look what they turned it into. Poverty run wild. Substandard housing. A permanant under class. And folks have the gall to blame Bush? Amazing.

I know this may not be a popular view around here, but I have to let this be said. The rampant poverty in New Orleans and the rest of the U.S. was mainly caused by the hysterical white flight of the 50's, 60's, and 70's that destablized neighborhoods practically overnight. If the whites of that generation could have tolarated living next to well to do blacks, the lower classes would have never taken complete control of our cities. It was only the wealthiest and most educated blacks who began to move into the white neighborhoods when the whites began to run for the hills. This is what caused the plummetting property values and real estate red-lining that has kept our country segregated a half century after the civil rights movement. Do you really think we planned on having the property values dive and the ghetto follow us? We were, for the first time in America's history, not being forced to live in the slums. This is why to this day, if you want to live in a mixed neighborhood you don't have too many options. RACISM is one of the biggest factors in many of the problems in this country. If you can't admit that you are either blind, ignorant, or a coward.

Edited by HartfordTycoon
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I know this may not be a popular view around here, but I have to let this be said. The rampant poverty in New Orleans and the rest of the U.S. was mainly caused by the hysterical white flight of the 50's, 60's, and 70's that destablized neighborhoods practically overnight. If the whites of that generation could have tolarated living next to well to do blacks, the lower classes would have never taken complete control of our cities.

I wouldn't want to downplay the role that racism played in 'white flight' but it was federal lending policies and policies such as red lining neighborhoods (which were racist policies) that made white flight possible. If it weren't easier to get loans in non-urban areas, and the interstate highway system didn't make longer commutes possible, whites would have stayed right where they were. Some people probably did move to get away from blacks, but most whites were taking advantage of federal policies that made it possible to live a better life in the suburbs (at least a better life was the line these people were being sold). Living together may have made us a more tolerant society and we would be further along in the social struggle against racism than we are now.

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I wouldn't want to downplay the role that racism played in 'white flight' but it was federal lending policies and policies such as red lining neighborhoods (which were racist policies) that made white flight possible. If it weren't easier to get loans in non-urban areas, and the interstate highway system didn't make longer commutes possible, whites would have stayed right where they were. Some people probably did move to get away from blacks, but most whites were taking advantage of federal policies that made it possible to live a better life in the suburbs (at least a better life was the line these people were being sold). Living together may have made us a more tolerant society and we would be further along in the social struggle against racism than we are now.

I totally agree. I did not mean to over simplify and say it was just racist whites who moved. It was really the racist policies of the US Government. Which is why the Government is culpable and has to play a role in reversing the damage.

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Tycoon, the greatest influence in "white flight" is rarely talked about. The interstate highway system made suburbia possible. It wasn't race or governmental policies that drove "wf", it was lifestyle. The highways made it possible to have a big house and acres of land and still be to work in twenty minutes.

It wasn't hysteria that drove this phenomenon, it was cars. And the people in them were not fleeing the ciity or black or anything. They were seeking a house, a two car garage and a rec rooom.

After years of this move to the higher stanadard of living in the suburbs, all that was left in the cities were the lower classes and those tended to predominantly black. The cities had lost tax base and imploded. Services were cut, crime soared and soon companies joined the move to suuburbia.

A case could be made that Lyndon Johnson's great society programs helped ingrain a culture of dependence. But these were effects not causes. The government was not responsiblle for "wf."

It was simply that the new interstate highway system (built in th 50's) that made a better life in the suburbs possible annd the fact an entire class of people got left behind.

Edited by beerbeer
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Tycoon, the greatest influence in "white flight" is rarely talked about. The interstate highway system made suburbia possible. It wasn't race or governmental policies that drove "wf", it was lifestyle. The highways made it possible to have a big house and acres of land and still be to work in twenty minutes.

It wasn't hysteria that drove this phenomenon, it was cars. And the people in them were not fleeing the ciity or black or anything. They were seeking a house, a two car garage and a rec rooom.

After years of this move to the higher stanadard of living in the suburbs, all that was left in the cities were the lower classes and those tended to predominantly black. The cities had lost tax base and imploded. Services were cut, crime soared and soon companies joined the move to suuburbia.

A case could be made that Lyndon Johnson's great society programs helped ingrain a culture of dependence. But these were effects not causes. The government was not responsiblle for "wf."

It was simply that the new interstate highway system (built in th 50's) that made a better life in the suburbs possible annd the fact an entire class of people got left behind.

Was it not 400 years of adverse government policy that influenced blacks to be a predominant and perpetual underclass in this country? I think we all know the answer to that. Everything goes back to the crimes against humanity that this country was founded on and helped it to grow into the most prosperous nation in the world for it's white citizens.

If you are saying that hysteria was not a real phenomenon and at least part of the equation, I think you need to check into what society was like at the time. Blacks were rarely or never on TV or in positions prestige. We were second class citizens to the fullest extent of the law. To say that whites of the time were comfortable with the notion of integration and mixed society is simply not true.

Edited by HartfordTycoon
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Tycoon,

Don't start that. Black slaves were sold to whites by black Africans. So the root of the problem is the black Africans who supplied the slaves. The role of blacks in slavery is every bit as damming as the role of whites.

Sadly, in many parts of Africa slavery is still being winked at.

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Some great point all around. If I could just add (what probably is my most liberal view of all) that a large part of the reason we see such poverty in our urban cores, or ghettos, if you will, is because of the manner in which blacks were treated in this country up until (and even after) the civil rights movment. We didn't even consider them "full human beings". We (collectively as country) held them down for such a long period of time that I don't see how we should expect them to recover so quickly from such a violent and repressive past.

Considering it's only been what, 30-40 years since minorties have been "free" in this counrty, I think we should hold back some of our criticisms for another generation. If, 30 years from now, the minority community is still in the same situation they are today, then they will only have themselves to blame.

And to think, I'm a conservative. My little rant there could have been taken right out of "The Nation." :silly:

I just wanted to add - as a conservative, I also believe firmly in individual responsibilty. I'm not an expert on African American culture considering I'm white, but I do think now is the time for minorities to start reversing the thought that, for instance, a family consists of a mother and children, and the father gets some sort of "pass." (basically in line w/ what Bill Cosby has been preaching to the choir the last couple years)

Edited by SOCOM
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Some great point all around. If I could just add (what probably is my most liberal view of all) that a large part of the reason we see such poverty in our urban cores, or ghettos, if you will, is because of the manner in which blacks were treated in this country up until (and even after) the civil rights movment. We didn't even consider them "full human beings". We (collectively as country) held them down for such a long period of time that I don't see how we should expect them to recover so quickly from such a violent and repressive past.

Considering it's only been what, 30-40 years since minorties have been "free" in this counrty, I think we should hold back some of our criticisms for another generation. If, 30 years from now, the minority community is still in the same situation they are today, then they will only have themselves to blame.

And to think, I'm a conservative. My little rant there could have been taken right out of "The Nation." :silly:

SOCOM, it's called common sense. If more American's had it, black or white, we would be in a better state. Also 30 years can't really make up for 300+. I understand what you are saying, but the game in many ways is getting harder. The gap between rich and poor is widening and Republicans don't care, at least from what I can tell, they don't even acknowledge that fact.

Tycoon,

Don't start that. Black slaves were sold to whites by black Africans. So the root of the problem is the black Africans who supplied the slaves. The role of blacks in slavery is every bit as damming as the role of whites.

Sadly, in many parts of Africa slavery is still being winked at.

I hold all guilty parties accountable. It's called supply and demand. No demand, no supply. No supply, no demand. They go hand in hand. BTW Arab invaders in Northern Africa actually started the large scale African slave trade. Africans played a large role, and I have African friends who I have had this conversation with. However, White society is solely culpable for building and perpetuating the institution of slavery in this country for centuries.

Edited by HartfordTycoon
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Was it not 400 years of adverse government policy that influenced blacks to be a predominant and perpetual underclass in this country? I think we all know the answer to that. Everything goes back to the crimes against humanity that this country was founded on and helped it to grow into the most prosperous nation in the world for it's white citizens.

I understand that there were great problems in society, but I think that may be a part of modern-day black's downfall. A lot of them pass their pessimism (which in the past was justified) and mistrust of white down to their kids.

The hip hop culture is kind of the antithesis of "white" culture, though with the younger crowd not so much. I think what Bill Cosby said about race is 100% right. The problems with black culture in America can only be pointed out by a black person. Any white person who says these things would be labeled as "racist".

I think most of the people in our country's mainstream culture nowadays are welcoming of other cultures, and the more you assimilate the easier it is to break through. I'll be honest, though. If you act or dress like a "gangster" you will be judged as a "thug" or one of a few words that aren't nice to say. With affirmative action, poor black kids have more opportunities than a white kid from the same socioeconomic situation. If the country was still racist today, I don't think the whites in charge would've let the Asians rise to become the richest race per capita in the country. I feel bad about what happened in the past, but I have just as much to do with America's terrible history with race as I do with the Holocaust. Hell, my ancestors were Irish (Catholic) and Polish and they were oppressed too. Especially the Irish. It was easier for our groups to get assimilated because of the obvious: skin color; but it's not like we use it as an excuse if we don't do well now in a society that doesn't have the same problems as the one our ancestors moved into.

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Also 30 years can't really make up for 300+.

Agreed. I guess I should have stated my point more clearly. I only think that in 30 years if minorities are still having the same problems then, that they are having today (highschool graduation rate for example), then the finger can't really be pointed outwards anymore. There's no way we can reverse 300+ years of repression over the course of 50 or 60 years, but it certainly should improve over that time. That's my point.

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I understand that there were great problems in society, but I think that may be a part of modern-day black's downfall. A lot of them pass their pessimism (which in the past was justified) and mistrust of white down to their kids.

The hip hop culture is kind of the antithesis of "white" culture, though with the younger crowd not so much. I think what Bill Cosby said about race is 100% right. The problems with black culture in America can only be pointed out by a black person. Any white person who says these things would be labeled as "racist".

I think most of the people in our country's mainstream culture nowadays are welcoming of other cultures, and the more you assimilate the easier it is to break through. I'll be honest, though. If you act or dress like a "gangster" you will be judged as a "thug" or one of a few words that aren't nice to say. With affirmative action, poor black kids have more opportunities than a white kid from the same socioeconomic situation. If the country was still racist today, I don't think the whites in charge would've let the Asians rise to become the richest race per capita in the country. I feel bad about what happened in the past, but I have just as much to do with America's terrible history with race as I do with the Holocaust. Hell, my ancestors were Irish (Catholic) and Polish and they were oppressed too. Especially the Irish. It was easier for our groups to get assimilated because of the obvious: skin color; but it's not like we use it as an excuse if we don't do well now in a society that doesn't have the same problems as the one our ancestors moved into.

Good points and I agree with you. It is not racist for a white person to make observations of what blacks should be doing better. What is racist is the belief that too many still hold, that it's due to genetic inferiority, and not societal forces. Now these societal forces are from within the black community as well as from the US Society at large. We, blacks have to step up and call for change from within. But it needs to be understood that we were kept poor and ignorant on purpose for most of this county's history and that understandably has left lasting scars. We also do not have a culture to call our own. We do not get the proper recognition as playing a role in the development of US Culture. (since we were only slaves not people what could we possibly have contributed, right?). Anyway, blacks need a better understanding of our history to appreciate who we are. One problem is that our history was lost and stolen from us. My family's tracable history starts on a plantation, we know nothing about anything previous to that. And that is tragic. Period.

I also want to let it be known that I am not a racist. I judge people as individuals and feel as if everyone on this board does as well, from what I can assume by your posts. Just to put that out there. Just because I don't agree with some points doesn't mean I will consider you racist or anything negative.

One last point, you shouldn't judge people based on appearances. A white kid can wear baggy jeans and cap and everyone assumes he's harmless. It's not the same for us and most of us just like the style if we dress a certain way. It's because it looks good to us and to who we want to think we look good. The same reasons anyone dresses how they dress.

Edited by HartfordTycoon
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Look at the poverty rates for African Americans in the 50's, look at the percentage of out of wedlock births foor African Americans in the 1950's. Those rates were much worse by the end of the 70s.

I believe "wf" was part of that. There is no question the lower class communities took a huge step backwards in the 60s and 70s. However, that makes it difficult to blame economic conditions on historic trends.

These processes in the 60s and 70s are much more relevant than the 400 years of oppression argument. In fact, I believe they trump it. These unfortunate trends was made worse by government trying to fix the problem. As usual they made it worse. The anti-work, anti-family welfare programs turned"wf" into a downright disaster for cities.

On the subject oof hip hop. Personally, I have no problem with hip hop or rap, my nephew is a white high school teacher who is a huge rap fan. In a way it's like rock and roll in the 50s and 60s. The adults thought rock was subversive back then. Like hip hop today, it was just fun

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Look at the poverty rates for African Americans in the 50's, look at the percentage of out of wedlock births foor African Americans in the 1950's. Those rates were much worse by the end of the 70s.

I believe "wf" was part of that. There is no question the lower class communities took a huge step backwards in the 60s and 70s. However, that makes it difficult to blame economic conditions on historic trends.

These processes in the 60s and 70s are much more relevant than the 400 years of oppression argument. In fact, I believe they trump it. These unfortunate trends was made worse by government trying to fix the problem. As usual they made it worse. The anti-work, anti-family welfare programs turned"wf" into a downright disaster for cities.

On the subject oof hip hop. Personally, I have no problem with hip hop or rap, my nephew is a white high school teacher who is a huge rap fan. In a way it's like rock and roll in the 50s and 60s. The adults thought rock was subversive back then. Like hip hop today, it was just fun

Some of that may be true, and beleive it or not, intergration destroyed many black enterprises that were created during segregation and was somewhat of a setback for the black community. The historic argument is definately true as I can attest that every black person's grandparents or great grand parents were dirt poor as children and their grand parents were slaves and education was really not even a factor for most blacks historically, it was either illegal unaccessable. My only point is let's say slaverly lasted for 100 years instead of 300 and our society was desegregated during the 18th or 19th centuries as opposed to the mid 20th. I think there can be no doubt that blacks would be better off today in 2006 and I would like to think the entire nation would be healthier.

As for Hip Hop I am a fan. I like some music but don't agree completely with it's content and some of it is trully great and will stand the test of time. However, Hip Hop is very culpable for perpetuating, not creating, many stereotypes and glorifying unproductive, self destructive, dangerous, and criminal behavior.

Edited by HartfordTycoon
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On the subject oof hip hop. Personally, I have no problem with hip hop or rap, my nephew is a white high school teacher who is a huge rap fan. In a way it's like rock and roll in the 50s and 60s. The adults thought rock was subversive back then. Like hip hop today, it was just fun

I don't buy that. 50 cent says he'll "put a hole in a nigga for f**king with me" and Eminem raps about mosagony. The culture was significantly influenced by gang members and drug dealers. Didn't Snoop Dogg get away with killing a guy? How come you see so many rap stars in jail? This isn't the puritanical 50s anymore. I think people are now too willing to let things be. I would not ever let my kid listen to anything with lyrics like that or act like an ignorant thug. I'm young and recently graduated from college, and I quietly object to what a lot of my friends listen to. This stuff is absolutely a negative influence.

Edited by damus
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I don't buy that. 50 cent says he'll "put a hole in a nigga for f**king with me" and Eminem raps about mosagony. The culture was significantly influenced by gang members and drug dealers. Didn't Snoop Dogg get away with killing a guy? How come you see so many rap stars in jail? This isn't the puritanical 50s anymore. I think people are now too willing to let things be. I would not ever let my kid listen to anything with lyrics like that or act like an ignorant thug. I'm young and recently graduated from college, and I quietly object to what a lot of my friends listen to. This stuff is absolutely a negative influence.

Snoop did not get away with killing anyone. His BODYGAURD killed someone who was perceived to be an immediate threat to Snoop. That's what bodygaurds are for. Rap music has always been influenced by the struggles and harsh reality of inner city life. Hip Hop was founded in NYC by young blacks, latinos, and even whites. The music itself is not the problem, it's the current state of it and that is really a corporate issue to take up with the major label heads. It is economic and white kids(who buy 80% of rap) are more interested in hearing "I will kill you" than "brother, let's get free". It's sad but concious rappers cannot sell records and they're livelihood does depend on it. So people choose to pretend to be "superthugs" even though it's a fictitious thing that does not even exist in the worst hoods in America. All in the name of $$$. Violence and bad attitudes sell in America and worldwide no matter what color the skin is. What does that say about us as humans?

Edited by HartfordTycoon
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It is economic and white kids(who buy 80% of rap) are more interested in hearing "nigga, I will kill you" than "brother, let's get free". It's sad but concious rappers cannot sell records and they're livelihood does depend on it. So people choose to pretend to be "superthugs" even though it's a fictitious thing that does not even exist in the worst hoods in America. All in the name of $$$. Violence and bad attitudes sell in America and worldwide no matter what color the skin is. What does that say about us as humans?

I did not mean to say that the style of the music is bad, but I see your point. I don't think you need to have lyrics that are that bad and promote such terrible things to sell music. This is not elvis shaking his hips or Lennon saying "we're bigger than Jesus". This stuff rots the minds of impressionable young kids who listen to it and look up to these guys. It's definately wrong that parents are letting kids listen to this. It's wrong to listen to this stuff, period. If you said in public what Eminem said in "kill you", for example, you would be arrested. It's true what you say about violence being a popular source of entertainment. In movies there was always James Bond, and war movies have always popular. My favorite shows are actually 24, The Sopranos, and Prison Break and all of them are pretty violent. In "corporate" rap, we are rooting for crinimals who promote (in some cases) rape, murder, drugs... "get rich and die trying". I guess I'm a little contradictory with liking The Sopranos, but you don't see people out there trying to imitate Paulie Walnuts as they commit violent crimes.

I don't listen to him so I don't know for sure, but I've been told Wyclef is one of those "conscious rappers" you were talking about. I've heard a little bit from Tupac (who I think was also a gang member) that was postive like "keep your head up". There's really nothing that comes out nowadays that I can relate to or at least listen to for a good beat. I usually stick to sports or news radio in the car...

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I did not mean to say that the style of the music is bad, but I see your point. I don't think you need to have lyrics that are that bad and promote such terrible things to sell music. This is not elvis shaking his hips or Lennon saying "we're bigger than Jesus". This stuff rots the minds of impressionable young kids who listen to it and look up to these guys. It's definately wrong that parents are letting kids listen to this. It's wrong to listen to this stuff, period. If you said in public what Eminem said in "kill you", for example, you would be arrested. It's true what you say about violence being a popular source of entertainment. In movies there was always James Bond, and war movies have always popular. My favorite shows are actually 24, The Sopranos, and Prison Break and all of them are pretty violent. In "corporate" rap, we are rooting for crinimals who promote (in some cases) rape, murder, drugs... "get rich and die trying". I guess I'm a little contradictory with liking The Sopranos, but you don't see people out there trying to imitate Paulie Walnuts as they commit violent crimes.

I don't listen to him so I don't know for sure, but I've been told Wyclef is one of those "conscious rappers" you were talking about. I've heard a little bit from Tupac (who I think was also a gang member) that was postive like "keep your head up". There's really nothing that comes out nowadays that I can relate to or at least listen to for a good beat. I usually stick to sports or news radio in the car...

The conscious rappers are more like Talib Kweli, Most Def, Common, and even Kanye West (who has proven you don't have to be a thug to sell records.) My favorite is Nas, he's not always PC but everything he says has meaning and validity. Lauren Hill and Wyclef, both Fugees are talented and pretty conscious as well.

If you don't think there are 21 year old "Jr. Gotti's" out there immitating the Sopronos, I think you should double check. In urban areas like New York and Boston there are plenty of white/italian/russian thugs or wannabe thugs. A good friend of mine got into a fight with some wiseguy wannabes on recent trip to NYC for nothing. The just pulled up on him and his friends, got out, and started a fight.

Edited by HartfordTycoon
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I guess I'd have to take your word for it with those Jr. Gottis....

I ran into a Snoop Dogg story while I was on my laptop outside a client's office just now, and decided to read it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...4/27/usnoop.xml

Snoop Dogg grew up in Long Beach, California and ended up on the wrong side of the law. In 1993 he was tried and acquitted for murder - the same year he found fame with debut album Doggystyle.

Was this the same incident that involved the bodyguard or was there another one?

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I guess I'd have to take your word for it with those Jr. Gottis....

I ran into a Snoop Dogg story while I was on my laptop outside a client's office just now, and decided to read it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...4/27/usnoop.xml

Was this the same incident that involved the bodyguard or was there another one?

That is the right trial.

Bio

"A more serious impediment to his career was the trial on charges of accessory to the murder of Phillip Woldermariam, shot by his bodyguard McKinley Lee. The trial was underway in November 1995 and attracted a great deal of media attention, due in part to Dogg's defence attorney being Johnnie Cochran, O.J. Simpson's successful defender. During the trial the rapper's bail was set at $1 million. The verdict on 20 February 1996 acquitted Dogg and McKinley Lee of both murder charges and the manslaughter cases were dropped in April. The trial had not overtly damaged his record sales, with his debut topping seven million copies worldwide, and the follow-up Tha Doggfather entering the US album chart at number 1, although it ultimately failed to match the commercial success of Doggystyle."

Bio

He was acquitted on all charges and it was NOT based on ANY loopholes. He was innocent, yet still carries a negative stigma. He is certainly partially to blame for that as he created his own image. The real sequence of events justified the shooting because it was in self defense, or the defense of the client in this case.

Edited by HartfordTycoon
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Does anybody know anything about the Cinco De Mayo thing going on in Downtown Hartford this friday? Where is it, what's it all about? Etc?

I just got this e mail at work today. These block parties Downtown are usually big and very well attended.

FOUR OF HARTFORD'S BEST BARS TEAM UP FOR

CINCO IN THE STREETS DOWNTOWN FIESTA

Hartford's Largest Cinco De Mayo Party to Take Place on Allyn Street

Four of downtown's coolest cantinas are joining forces to throw the biggest, brightest, boldest Cinco de Mayo party Hartford has ever seen! In fact, four walls can't hold it in. We're closing off Allyn Street and opening up the whole block for a seriously sizzling night of food, drink and entertainment under the open sky. The Cinco In The Streets Downtown Fiesta starts on Friday, May 5 at 4p.m., continues until last call.

The Cinco In The Streets Downtown Fiesta is brought to you by Agave Grill, The Brickyard Caf

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hello. I'm Stephanie. My family came from Sicily to Middletown in the 1920s. My parents moved to Cromwell in the 1970s, and I was graduated from Cromwell High in 1993. I went to school in Boston thereafter and never went home. I miss CT a lot, and I've always been concerned about Hartford's redevelopment. It was such a big issue when I was growing up, but it seemed to go nowhere in the 80s and early 90s. I'm glad things are different now, and it's nice to get caught up.

DODD AND LIEBERMAN FOR PRESIDENT! ;)

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