West Greenville Village

[GVLbikeNboard]

Here is the site plan for Woodside Mill:

http://www.greenvillesc.gov/city_governmen...ideSitePlan.pdf

That looks really nice, there will be all kinds of amenities!

[gs3]

Looks great. Nice to see a jogging trail incorporated on the property.

[gman430]

Here is a story from the Greenville News on the proposed redevelopment project for Woodside Mill which is anticipated to cost between $75-$85 million: http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20...ONTPAGECAROUSEL The developers have to qualify for special mortgage insurance and tax credits through the federal government for it to happen. I hope they will succeed in getting the funding.

[gs3]

Here is a story from the Greenville News on the proposed redevelopment project for Woodside Mill which is anticipated to cost between $75-$85 million: http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20...ONTPAGECAROUSEL The developers have to qualify for special mortgage insurance and tax credits through the federal government for it to happen. I hope they will succeed in getting the funding.

Why tax credits and the federal government?

[gman430]

Why tax credits and the federal government?

Not sure. That's what the article I linked to says. I do know the funding the developers want is a special tax credit for rehabilitation of property. Seems worth it to me. It will help revitalize the area.

Edited April 8, 2009 by citylife

[Greenville]

Why tax credits and the federal government?

Because evidently we are now a country that expects help from the government for anything and everything we possibly can. It's the main side effect of the spendulous plan.

[Danmire]

It's probably credits similar to what was used for the redevelopment of the Monaghan Mill. $75mil spent for 250 apartments averages at $300,000 an apartment.

[gs3]

Because evidently we are now a country that expects help from the government for anything and everything we possibly can. It's the main side effect of the spendulous plan.

Off topic for a minute.....you have heard that Microsoft (a very profitable company) is getting something like 11 Million from the spendulous plan to pay for a bridge, I believe at their campus.....a private bridge on private property. Can you believe that? We've got problems in Washington.....big problems!

Back to the mill, the tax credits are to get the developers to spend and invest in less than desirable areas? I understand that. Not sure I understand the amount. Seems high?

[btoy]

It's probably credits similar to what was used for the redevelopment of the Monaghan Mill. $75mil spent for 250 apartments averages at $300,000 an apartment.

That price per unit sounds way too high!!!

The Credits are the Federal Historical Income Producing Tax Credit, SC State Historical Tax Credit and SC State Textile Revitalization Tax Credits. For a total of 55% in tax credits for each dollar spent on renovation but not on acquisition. The federal credit requires a 5 year hold which means you have to do apartments and not condo's. Other credits could be available for affordable housing. If you can not use the tax credits you can sell them for real money.

[vicupstate]

Because evidently we are now a country that expects help from the government for anything and everything we possibly can. It's the main side effect of the spendulous plan.

These tax credits have been in effect for years. If they weren't in place, there would be even more historic demolition than there already is, not to mention more blighted property. A Tax credit is in effect a tax cut,btw. That certainly makes it alright doesn't it?

[GvilleSC]

Well, this certainly sounds like good news: greenvillesc.gov (PDF)

I'm not entirely sure where this is located, but any redevelopment in West Greenville is for the best. Homes for Hope is involved, as is the City of Greenville.

Many people have said before that the Pete Hollis area is the next West End, but I truly believe West Greenville could see better days much sooner... Hopefully this redevelopment project will really take off along with the redevelopment of the old mill.

[mallguy]

Transforming West Greenville would require putting lots of high-paying jobs nearby. (Result- people who can afford nice houses and spend lots of money to attract retail would be living and working there.)

I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[gman430]

Transforming West Greenville would require putting lots of high-paying jobs nearby. (Result- people who can afford nice houses and spend lots of money to attract retail would be living and working there.)

I don't see that happening anytime soon.

What do you call downtown Greenville with the office workers and St. Francis with the hospital workers? Both of those are less than a mile away.

[Greenville]

Transforming West Greenville would require putting lots of high-paying jobs nearby. (Result- people who can afford nice houses and spend lots of money to attract retail would be living and working there.)

I don't see that happening anytime soon.

1. West Greenville won't be a high-end district for the super wealthy, but rather an artsy district for mostly young urban professionals.

2. The largest concentration of high-paying jobs in the Upstate (downtown Greenville) is only a mile or two away.

3. Having jobs in the immediate vicinity is not a criteria for a successful neighborhood. If it were, people wouldn't live in suburbs.

Edited April 14, 2009 by Greenville

[gs3]

1. West Greenville won't be a high-end district for the super wealthy, but rather an artsy district for mostly young urban professionals.

2. The largest concentration of high-paying jobs in the Upstate (downtown Greenville) is only a mile or two away.

3. Having jobs in the immediate vicinity is not a criteria for a successful neighborhood. If it were, people wouldn't live in suburbs.

Good points.

With the progress being made in West Greenville, I fully expect it to come back.....it will take some time, but it looks to be on the right upward track.

Some people thought the corner of Laurens and Pleasantburg was dead, poverty stricken and would never turn around......just look at it now.....a new Fresh Market and adjoining retail center on one corner, and South Carolina's only Lotus dealership on another corner. http://www.lotusgreenville.com/lotus/ Not a depressed area at all.

[mallguy]

What do you call downtown Greenville with the office workers and St. Francis with the hospital workers? Both of those are less than a mile away.

The growth of downtown in the past 20 years and the growth of both hospitals hasn't yet caused higher-end residential development in West Greenville. People who work in those places and who want to live close by and can afford to live in Alta Vista, the Augusta Road area, Chanticleer and now downtown. It's been that way (except for downtown residential) as far as I can recall; I asked my parents about it, and they said that those trends have been ongoing since the 1940s, and West Greenville has been less desirable since then, if not before. No reason to believe that all of a sudden people who can afford good housing (and who want good schools for their kids) will shift to West Greenville in enough numbers to have much of an impact, especially with downtown growing at the rate it's grown in the past 20 years. Maybe if downtown added 50,000 jobs in the next few years, but that isn't going to happen, realistically.

[vicupstate]

The growth of downtown in the past 20 years and the growth of both hospitals hasn't yet caused higher-end residential development in West Greenville. People who work in those places and who want to live close by and can afford to live in Alta Vista, the Augusta Road area, Chanticleer and now downtown. It's been that way (except for downtown residential) as far as I can recall; I asked my parents about it, and they said that those trends have been ongoing since the 1940s, and West Greenville has been less desirable since then, if not before. No reason to believe that all of a sudden people who can afford good housing (and who want good schools for their kids) will shift to West Greenville in enough numbers to have much of an impact, especially with downtown growing at the rate it's grown in the past 20 years. Maybe if downtown added 50,000 jobs in the next few years, but that isn't going to happen, realistically.

You're ignoring a very key fact though. In the '50's, '60's, 70's 80's and 90's no one was trying to change the situation. The city has turned DT around and is focusing it's attention on other areas. The Pendleton Street area has seen recent improvements, the mill project is in the offing, focus is turned to that area and the city has a proven track record now. Cleveland park West and the Swamp Rabbit Trail will be nearby also.

There is nothing in your description of West Greenville that couldn't have been said about WEST END a decade or two ago.

I;ve seen many depressed areas turn around in my lifetime in a wide assortment of cities, there's no particular reason why it can't happen here.

[vicupstate]

This week's Journal has an article on the West Greenville, the Queen St project specifically. Nearly 100 new homes have been built in West Greenville already in the past few years.

[mallguy]

You're ignoring a very key fact though. In the '50's, '60's, 70's 80's and 90's no one was trying to change the situation. The city has turned DT around and is focusing it's attention on other areas. The Pendleton Street area has seen recent improvements, the mill project is in the offing, focus is turned to that area and the city has a proven track record now. Cleveland park West and the Swamp Rabbit Trail will be nearby also.

There is nothing in your description of West Greenville that couldn't have been said about WEST END a decade or two ago.

I;ve seen many depressed areas turn around in my lifetime in a wide assortment of cities, there's no particular reason why it can't happen here.

Uh, my great-grandfather owned land along West Washington Street starting in the late 1880s, and it went to pot by the 1920s, and my family also owned tracts in West Greenville starting in the 1930s. They tried very hard to redevelop those areas, in league with others, and back then downtown was the only real commercial and employment (other than mills) center in Greenville County. They tried very hard to change the situation and it didn't work. They finally just sold parts of their properties to the government. West Washington Street between Academy and the train station used to be a nice area (until the 1920s); the rest of West Greenville has been mill villages and similar housing; it has never been upscale and so it won't "come back"; it will gentrify for the first time, at best.

Charlotte also has lower-end areas to the west of its center city. Despite the massive growth in uptown Charlotte, spillover hasn't been that big there into those areas.

Not saying that West Greenville cannot be transformed into something nicer than it is now, but we need to be focusing on big-picture changes to the area- relocations of large employers, complete redevelopment of large tracts of land, major improvements in schools and more. Unless those things happen, upper-income people will continue to flock to the eastern side of downtown, as they have done for 100 years.

Edited April 17, 2009 by mallguy

[Greenville]

Not saying that West Greenville cannot be transformed into something nicer than it is now, but we need to be focusing on big-picture changes to the area- relocations of large employers, complete redevelopment of large tracts of land, major improvements in schools and more. Unless those things happen, upper-income people will continue to flock to the eastern side of downtown, as they have done for 100 years.

Again, the target demographic to help redevelop West Greenville is not the upper income people, but rather the artsy young professionals. Luxurious homes and condos are not needed to bring an area back. Creative middle-class people, good landscaping, varied restaurants/coffee shops, some niche retail, landscaping, and streetscaping are. People want to feel part of a community with an identity and a vibe. If West Greenville can develop that, and offer people a safe and progressive area in which to live, the area will make a great turnaround. No company execs, doctors, or lawyers will be expected to live there (and the target demographic might not want them living there, anyway!).

[mallguy]

Again, the target demographic to help redevelop West Greenville is not the upper income people, but rather the artsy young professionals. Luxurious homes and condos are not needed to bring an area back. Creative middle-class people, good landscaping, varied restaurants/coffee shops, some niche retail, landscaping, and streetscaping are. People want to feel part of a community with an identity and a vibe. If West Greenville can develop that, and offer people a safe and progressive area in which to live, the area will make a great turnaround. No company execs, doctors, or lawyers will be expected to live there (and the target demographic might not want them living there, anyway!).

OK, (1) how many "artsy young professionals" are there in Greenville, (2) where do they live now, (3) what grounds do we have for why they will sell their current properties or otherwise relocate, and (4) where will their children, if any, go to school? Why would they not live near the West End already if they want an urban-type artsy area? Show me good, hard facts and analysis and I'll go for an idea; otherwise this thread is becoming like the "Prada is opening at Magnolia Park; a guy at the gas station told me, so it's happening" thread.

Edited April 18, 2009 by mallguy

[vicupstate]

I'm sorry if your family couldn't make West Greenville thrive in the middle of a depression and the onset of a World War, but just how relevant is that?

Obviously, you are not familiar with Wesley Heights in Charlotte. The Uptown makeover HAS spilled over outside the 277 loop. It was a major psychological hurdle but it happened.

I guess I've seen too many neighborhoods in too many cities turn around to think that there is 'something in the soil' that prevents it from happening. From Harlem(NYC) to Grant Park(Atlanta) to to Ansonborough (Charleston) to South End (Charlotte) DT/West End (Greenville), if the econmics and leadership foster it, it can happen anywhere.

The artists/residents that will move into West Greenville will be the ones priced out of West End. There children will go to school at the newest one in the county, Whittenburg.

Just because West Greenville won't get a 'Mall' in the near future does mean it can't see a significant turn in it's fortunes. In fact, it has already started just that. Judging by your handle maybe urban just isn't your style.

Edited April 18, 2009 by vicupstate

[mallguy]

I'm sorry if your family couldn't make West Greenville thrive in the middle of a depression and the onset of a World War, but just how relevant is that?

Obviously, you are not familiar with Wesley Heights in Charlotte. The Uptown makeover HAS spilled over outside the 277 loop. It was a major psychological hurdle but it happened.

I guess I've seen too many neighborhoods in too many cities turn around to think that there is 'something in the soil' that prevents it from happening. From Harlem(NYC) to Grant Park(Atlanta) to to Ansonborough (Charleston) to South End (Charlotte) DT/West End (Greenville), if the econmics and leadership foster it, it can happen anywhere.

The artists/residents that will move into West Greenville will be the ones priced out of West End. There children will go to school at the newest one in the county, Whittenburg.

Just because West Greenville won't get a 'Mall' in the near future does mean it can't see a significant turn in it's fortunes. In fact, it has already started just that. Judging by your handle maybe urban just isn't your style.

No, actually I own a condo less than a mile from Wesley Heights and have friends who live there. The area is up-and-coming (with my friends' latest reports being that they found interesting artifacts in their yard in Wesley Heights when they were out gardening), but again, even with massive growth in central Charlotte, the residential spillover to areas such as Wesley Heights (and the Cherry area) is limited; growth of Dilworth and other traditionally more desirable areas has been stronger, in terms of numbers of residents. And no, I have lived in downtowns of large cities (with Charlotte being the smallest) for the past 19 years, and I have been on land use planning panels before. And I didn't just move to Greenville a few years ago; my family has been there (and involved in residential development) since the 1800s.

And where will people of limited means in Greenville live if West Greenville is gentrified? Maybe they don't want to have their property values (thus rents and taxes) go up?

I would do the following to promote West Greenville, at a minimum:

(1) Allow residents to send their children to any school in the county;

(2) Require office developments above a certain size- maybe 200,000 sf?- to be downtown or in the areas west of downtown, rather than in Eastside suburbia (there are large undeveloped tracts around Academy Street and near the West End, for example);

(3) Give tax benefits to residential development in West Greenville;

(4) Target companies who could relocate to West Greenville; and

(5) Beautification and transportation improvements in West Greenville.

And give me the data and facts- (1) how many "artsy" young professionals there are in Greenville and (2) the other data mentioned- and explain why they would want their kids to go to Whittenburg when they could go to Eastside schools or other ones, and I'll buy the arguments.

Even then I would expect only certain parts of West Greenville to be gentrified. Some of the other turnarounds you mention (such as Harlem--which I am very familiar with, having lived on 97th Street for a few years) have been limited and are due in part to other more desirable areas being just way too expensive for a lot of people. Greenville would also need to have housing in more desirable areas to be extremely expensive and with limited supply (like the Upper East Side of Manhattan, causing people to move to Harlem)- that is not the case here.

Edited April 18, 2009 by mallguy

[GvilleSC]

This isn't simply a pipe dream, West Greenville already has had a large amount of redevelopment along its village/downtown area. The housing is probably the one component that hasn't come back as much. However, we see Homes of Hope breaking ground on a large development of new houses, along with the mill conversion that is planned and awaiting 'incentives'. Not to mention, the West End's development is creeping ever closer along Main toward Pendleton Street and residential developments resulting from downtown's revitalization are in areas beyond that. Only time will tell, but I think anyone who hasn't seen West Greenville in a few years would be amazed at what has already taken place. It's still seedy, but relative to where it was, it's encouraging. I think that is what gives us locals the vision and idea that it's coming back and what it CAN be.

[goodbye]

OK, (1) how many "artsy young professionals" are there in Greenville, (2) where do they live now, (3) what grounds do we have for why they will sell their current properties or otherwise relocate, and (4) where will their children, if any, go to school? Why would they not live near the West End already if they want an urban-type artsy area? Show me good, hard facts and analysis and I'll go for an idea; otherwise this thread is becoming like the "Prada is opening at Magnolia Park; a guy at the gas station told me, so it's happening" thread.

You may need to take a trip over to West Greenville sometime. It may not yet be the artsy heaven envisioned, however it is undoubtedly becoming a well-known artist colony in Greenville. It has plenty of gritty charater and its growing solid base of creativity is loaded with dynamic variety. (Read more)