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malikr65

What would be best for Hartford  

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  1. 1. What would be best for Hartford

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And if anyone can truly tell me that NH is not more politically and socially connected to CT and Hartford than to New York I just don't know what you guys are seeing. I know alot of people from New Haven who come here on a regular basis. They listen to our radio stations and watch our TV stations. We all like Uconn. I mean I really do not buy that New Haven is the last outpost of the NY metro. And certainly not the fringes of NH metro closer to Hartford such as Meriden and Wallingford. These places have no perceived connection to NY and much more of a real connection to Hartford as the capitol and as a major city. People from all over CT and western MA come here to go to Westfarms, Bradley, Buckland, Civic Center, Meadows (Dodge or whatever) I just do not buy the argument. I work in Simsbury and over half of my co workers are from outside what you would call Hartford metro. They come from Waterbury area, New Haven area, Springfield area, etc.

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I'd have to agree, what the world perceives as Hartford's sphere of influence, and what it's actual sphere is, are completely different. I was a season ticket holder for years, and my ex-girlfriend worked for the team while I was dating her. While the fan base did suffer down in Fairfield County, there were still significant numbers coming from areas like Shelton, Trumbull, and Bridgeport. New Haven is well under our sphere of influence (1/2 hour to get to a Whalers game, 1.5 hours to get to a Rangers game), Springfield is 100% in our sphere (the Whalers played there during the HCC roof collapse period, and it retained a huge following up to and including the Falcons being our AHL team), a large amount of people went to games from New London area/in, and they could easily pull from all of western Mass and southern Vermont (just over 1 hour from Brattleboro). Northern Vermont would obviously be Canadiens territory.

One of the Whalers huge flaws was their marketing ineptness. They basically ignored New Haven and Fairfield County. Despite that, New Haven still showed up at games, and FF did OK. They could even get weekenders from Albany if they tried (package deal, just under 2 hours each way). The market and support was never the problem, it was the poor management, marketing, and ownership. Explain to me how a bad market draws between 9k and 14k every night with possibly the worst team in NHL history, after trading away all their marquis players for slugs? The Islanders with all their history couldn't do it, the Devils with all their Stanley Cups have attendance issues, Boston, a much larger market with a ton of hockey history, don't draw nearly what they should. I could go on and on, LA Kings, Chicago (Original Six, still can't draw with a bad team), ahem.... Carolina.

Anyways, I will indeed concede that the chances are slim that we get a team. Bettman has been anti-Hartford since he got in the league. Hartford as a market got a bad rap during those bad days, and it really wasn't the markets fault. We do have one thing though, and that's Howard Baldwin. He's the one guy that still has faith in the market, he's currently looking for a team, and has publically stated that he'd like to move it to Hartford. Wether the State and City pull together if that happens is another story. They could just as easily ignore him and make him move whatever team he buys to Kansas City instead....

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The bottom line is that Hartford is a smart choice for the current NHL and the hole they have dug themselves into. CT could very easily be the most enthusiastic market in the NHL and many teams from the sunbelt would easily do better here then where they are currently. I think Prov. would have a harder time supporting a team as the entire state of RI is only about the size of Metro Hartford and the Metro Boston fans have a team. There would be no draw for a RI team in CT. Here in Hartford we would certainly draw fans from the entire state of CT and western MA this time around. I personally think we will get a team in the near future as someone will figure out that Hockey should go where Hockey is wanted. We will need to grow in order to attract the NBA, but a team could be supported, again due to the fact that CT is a state of 3.5 Million people and Western MA is included and would push the number over 4 Million in terms of regional population.

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Bottom line:

All that are numbers but they do not equate to the formula used. As I tried to point out, my experience with this indicates that sport franchises do not target states or "regions"...they target metro markets. Providence does not have a hard time - it is simply a better business decision to be close enough to BOTH Boston and Providence (only tradition keeps 3 of the 4 teams in Boston)...so the status quo in NE is perfect for the owners and the leagues.

Providence and Boston are bigger cities/metros than Hartford and the Boston-Providence geographic tie make it a strong market - that's all. The owners do not mind if it is in PVD or BOS as long as there is a draw from both.

My Tampa Bay example is just the point...neither city (both much bigger than Hartford) can support any team alone - but tying the cities together because they are close (like BOS-PVD) make it worth it. Simple business, not hometown pride.

I would much prefer it to be different, overall hockey is big in southern cities and the brick&mortar/labor/upkeep is much cheaper.

I agree with Cotuit.

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Bottom line:

All that are numbers but they do not equate to the formula used. As I tried to point out, my experience with this indicates that sport franchises do not target states or "regions"...they target metro markets.

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Hartford is the largest metro market in the country without a sports franchise. Btw, what experience are you reffering to that you have in the field of sports marketing?

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Hartford itself doesn't have to be within New York's sphere in order for it's market share to be diminished. There's a big piece of Southwest Connecticut that is not going to swing towards supporting a Hartford team over a New York team and that is the problem that Hartford faces. It's the same reason that Providence won't get a pro team unless someone defects from Boston (or in a very unlikely senario, MLB decides Boston can support an AL and NL franchise, and the NL goes to Providence, very very very unlikely). Hartford has a nice large ring of people around it, unfortunately not all of them are oriented towards Hartford. I think the only way we'll see major league hockey come back to Hartford is if the league implodes and is reborn in a new form without the southern teams. It'd be nice to get a team back in Quebec too you know, if the NHL can't make it work in Quebec, I see little hope for Hartford.

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I agree with much of what you said here. However, even without SW CT, Hartford has it's metro area, plus good old Springy. Thats quite a big market share, Hrtfd+Sprfld.

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Hartford itself doesn't have to be within New York's sphere in order for it's market share to be diminished. There's a big piece of Southwest Connecticut that is not going to swing towards supporting a Hartford team over a New York team and that is the problem that Hartford faces.

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I don't see that as a problem. Southwestern CT is NYC territory and many residents there don't really care too much about the rest of CT. They are much closer to NYC and naturally they follow NYC sports teams. A new team in Hartford doesn't need SW CT. They can draw fans from the rest of the state, Western MA and Albany.

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I just don't buy it, Cotuit. I think a team in Hartford would draw from the entire state. How many Ranger Fans and Islanders fans do you think we have in CT? Even in southwestern CT. I would say almost none if any.

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Many southwestern CT residents are ex-New Yorkers. If they're not Rangers fans, then they probably don't care about hockey anyway and wouldn't support a Hartford team. No worries, there are plenty of other worthy places that a Hartford team can draw fans from.

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The bottom line is that Hartford is a smart choice for the current NHL and the hole they have dug themselves into. CT could very easily be the most enthusiastic market in the NHL and many teams from the sunbelt would easily do better here then where they are currently. I think Prov. would have a harder time supporting a team as the entire state of RI is only about the size of Metro Hartford and the Metro Boston fans have a team. There would be no draw for a RI team in CT. Here in Hartford we would certainly draw fans from the entire state of CT and western MA this time around. I personally think we will get a team in the near future as someone will figure out that Hockey should go where Hockey is wanted. We will need to grow in order to attract the NBA, but a team could be supported, again due to the fact that CT is a state of 3.5 Million people and Western MA is included and would push the number over 4 Million in terms of regional population.

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By putting a new Whalers team back in Hartford to replace the old Whalers (taken away by that slimeball Karmanos), the NHL would be able to redeem itself somewhat and would be showing that it cares about its true fans. The NFL did it for Cleveland and the NBA did it for Charlotte. The NHL needs to go where hockey is wanted.

Man, if only I had started at UConn as a freshman (1996-97), I might have been able to go to a Whalers game. But noooo, Karmanos the scumbag just had to move them out the year before I transferred to UConn. :lol:

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Bottom line:

All that are numbers but they do not equate to the formula used. As I tried to point out, my experience with this indicates that sport franchises do not target states or "regions"...they target metro markets. Providence does not have a hard time - it is simply a better business decision to be close enough to BOTH Boston and Providence (only tradition keeps 3 of the 4 teams in Boston)...so the status quo in NE is perfect for the owners and the leagues.

Providence and Boston are bigger cities/metros than Hartford and the Boston-Providence geographic tie make it a strong market - that's all. The owners do not mind if it is in PVD or BOS as long as there is a draw from both.

My Tampa Bay example is just the point...neither city (both much bigger than Hartford) can support any team alone - but tying the cities together because they are close (like BOS-PVD) make it worth it. Simple business, not hometown pride.

I would much prefer it to be different, overall hockey is big in southern cities and the brick&mortar/labor/upkeep is much cheaper.

I agree with Cotuit.

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Your experience isn't shining through, my friend. Hartford is a much bigger media market than Providence, that's what they look at. And there would be no run-over with Boston, as Providence would have. In fact, Hartford is in prime area, close enough for the fans of 9 different NHL teams to be able to come and see their team, while not close enough to not have it's own large fan base.

Nielsen Media Markets

Also, Springfield is 100% in Hartford Whalers territory, so add them (264,840), and we get 1,278,190, which is not only significantly larger than Providence, but ranks us 21st, just above cities like St. Louis, and Pittsburgh....

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The Hartford media market is the largest in the US without a major league franchise and the Hartford metro market has a higher per capita income than any city without a team. Hartford (and CT as a whole) have far more large corporations which is a big determining factor in franchise relocation. It is these corporations that buy skyboxes and blocks of season tickets. There is no way Providence is a more attractive market to any major league franchise than Hartford. Not to say that Providence wouldn't be deserving - its geography in this case screws them. Providence is far too close to Boston.... unless one of the Boston teams moved to Providence and that will never happen.

While it would be tough to draw fans from Fairfield County, its not impossible by any stretch of the imagination. One thing the Whalers never did to draw these fans in large numbers is simple - win. UConn has no problem drawing fans from as far away as New York. It didn't help that you could watch the Bruins, the Rangers, the Islanders and Devils on TV in Stamford but not the Whalers. And once Gary Bettman and his "southern relocation" philosophy took over the NHL and Peter Karmanos bought the team, the Whalers were doomed. The only staisfaction I get in this whole debacle is that Karmanos has lost a fortune seeking greener hockey pastures in Raleigh of all places. And believe it or not Governor Lowell Weiker, who directed the sale of the team to Karmanos OVER a local group who made a bigger offer, still sits on the board with Compuware - Karmanos' corporation since the year the Whale left town.

Bottom line is that Hartford has a good a shot of any market left to get a team. The problem as I see it is that most leagues are already oversaturated with too many teams.

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For the simple fact that Providence has never had a major league team. The minor leagues are a tough sell in Hartford after having the NHL. I'm a former Whaler season ticket holder and have been to one WolfPack game in my life. No one here cares about the WolfPack except little kids - its minor league.

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Your lucky to get 3,500 to a Wolfpack game. They are always in the bottom in attendence. Providence averages about 8,000.

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We don't like minor league teams in Hartford plain and simple. They are beneath us and an insult in my opinion. Uconn Games in the Civic Center for men and women draw 15,000 consistantly and Uconn Football draws 40,000 consistantly. Hartford is way more of a big league sports market than Providence. This is an undisputable fact and there is simply no need to discuss it further. Providence will never be on national TV for sporting events on a consistent basis. I just watched the Buick Championship finals on CBS this weekend, and there are rumors of Tiger coming next year or at least some way better players. Let's please be serious here. The Whalers had the attendance and were the worst team in the league. The Civic Center plays to national audiences consistantly and rentschler field soon will too. So again please let's get real people.

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We don't like minor league teams in Hartford plain and simple. They are beneath us and an insult in my opinion. Uconn Games in the Civic Center for men and women draw 15,000 consistantly and Uconn Football draws 40,000 consistantly. Hartford is way more of a big league sports market than Providence. This is an undisputable fact and there is simply no need to discuss it further. Providence will never be on national TV for sporting events on a consistent basis. I just watched the Buick Championship finals on CBS this weekend, and there are rumors of Tiger coming next year or at least some way better players. Let's please be serious here. The Whalers had the attendance and were the worst team in the league. The Civic Center plays to national audiences consistantly and rentschler field soon will too. So again please let's get real people.

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I forgot to mention that Hartford has the repetation throughout the AHL as having the worst fans ever.

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We don't like minor league teams in Hartford plain and simple. They are beneath us and an insult in my opinion. Uconn Games in the Civic Center for men and women draw 15,000 consistantly and Uconn Football draws 40,000 consistantly. Hartford is way more of a big league sports market than Providence. This is an undisputable fact and there is simply no need to discuss it further. Providence will never be on national TV for sporting events on a consistent basis. I just watched the Buick Championship finals on CBS this weekend, and there are rumors of Tiger coming next year or at least some way better players. Let's please be serious here. The Whalers had the attendance and were the worst team in the league. The Civic Center plays to national audiences consistantly and rentschler field soon will too. So again please let's get real people.

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And I might add they consistantly referred to being in Hartford even though they were in Cromwell. And has anyone else noticed that on the news now when they talk about surrounding towns the new emphasis being placed on being "suburban" Hartford. The regional thinking is starting to take hold.

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Also, Springfield is 100% in Hartford Whalers territory, so add them (264,840), and we get 1,278,190, which is not only significantly larger than Providence,

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Actually, that is smaller than Providence. The Providence MSA is 1,628,808 according to 2004 estimates. If you want to add Springfield, we'll add New London. However, your numbers are wrong, Hartford with Springfield would be 1,872,537. Providence with New London would be 1,895,274. We could play this game all day...

But this isn't about Providence, no one is saying that the NHL is going to come to Providence, it could if some weird things happened in Boston, but those things aren't going to happen.

The Whalers left Hartford for a reason, and it wasn't to make you all sad.

For the simple fact that Providence has never had a major league team.

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Never? Are you sure about that?

We don't like minor league teams in Hartford plain and simple. They are beneath us and an insult in my opinion.

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Whatever, that's got to be one of the most childish things I've ever heard.

Hartford is way more of a big league sports market than Providence. This is an undisputable fact and there is simply no need to discuss it further.

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What does that even mean?

Providence will never be on national TV for sporting events on a consistent basis. I just watched the Buick Championship finals on CBS this weekend, and there are rumors of Tiger coming next year or at least some way better players. Let's please be serious here. The Whalers had the attendance and were the worst team in the league. The Civic Center plays to national audiences consistantly and rentschler field soon will too. So again please let's get real people.

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The difference between Hartford and Providence is, Providence doesn't care about these things. If big events come to Providence, and some people sitting on their couch on a Sunday afternoon in Des Moines see it, great, if not, Providence is still a great place to live, so what's the problem?

But like I said, this isn't about Providence, it's about Hartford. I guess we'll see if Hartford can support a pro team when/if someone decides to move one there.

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So.. Back to the real topic at hand. What are your guys thought on whether or not it would be beneficial to have a team, NHL or NBA, located in Hartford(of course) but using the state name instead of the city? Would this help garner more regional support and/or national attention?

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Your lucky to get 3,500 to a Wolfpack game. They are always in the bottom in attendence. Providence averages about 8,000.

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And this proves....... nothing, other than we don't want to eat hamburg after eating steak...

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Actually, that is smaller than Providence. The Providence MSA is 1,628,808 according to 2004 estimates. If you want to add Springfield, we'll add New London. However, your numbers are wrong, Hartford with Springfield would be 1,872,537. Providence with New London would be 1,895,274. We could play this game all day...

You crossing your wires here, Cotuit. We have been talking about Media Markets, not MSAs. Apples and oranges. Please re-read my post and check out the link that I provided in a prior post. You also seem to forget that Hartford has also had prior major League team before the Whalers. Hartford Dark Blues, anyone?

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So.. Back to the real topic at hand. What are your guys thought on whether or not it would be beneficial to have a team, NHL or NBA, located in Hartford(of course) but using the state name instead of the city? Would this help garner more regional support and/or national attention?

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Of course it's benifical to have a team. After Whalers games, downtown would be teeming with people, bars were always packed, restaurants were always full. After they left, it was increasingly rarer to see bars full or people milling about on week nights, the Wolf Pack certainly didn't do much, most of those people are families that leave early to get the kids home and to bed. To compare the 2 leagues is ridiculous, watching the Wolf Pack is not even close to the good time that watching the Whalers was, not even close. Hamburger and steak. I don't know anyone that gets excited when the Wilkes-Barre Penguins come to town instead of the Pittsburgh Penguins. No one gets excited when the Philadelphia Phantoms roll in compared to the Philadelphia Flyers (remember when we both had the long hockey pants?). And, not to burst anyones bubble, but no one gets excited when the Providence Bruins show up instead of the Boston Bruins. Just isn't the same. Not even close....

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Of course it's benifical to have a team.  After Whalers games, downtown would be teeming with people, bars were always packed, restaurants were always full.  After they left, it was increasingly rarer to see bars full or people milling about on week nights, the Wolf Pack certainly didn't do much, most of those people are families that leave early to get the kids home and to bed.  To compare the 2 leagues is ridiculous, watching the Wolf Pack is not even close to the good time that watching the Whalers was, not even close.  Hamburger and steak.  I don't know anyone that gets excited when the Wilkes-Barre Penguins come to town instead of the Pittsburgh Penguins.  No one gets excited when the Philadelphia Phantoms roll in compared to the Philadelphia Flyers (remember when we both had the long hockey pants?).  And, not to burst anyones bubble, but no one gets excited when the Providence Bruins show up instead of the Boston Bruins.  Just isn't the same.  Not even close....

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I meant whether anyone thought it would be benficial to brand the team as say the Connecticut Whalers or Connecticut Clippers (one can hope) as opposed to the Hartford Whalers or Hartford Clippers. Does anyone think that would garner more statewide support? I think that it may, but my hometown pride would still like to see Hartford in the logo of any pro team we acquire.

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Actually, that is smaller than Providence. The Providence MSA is 1,628,808 according to 2004 estimates. If you want to add Springfield, we'll add New London. However, your numbers are wrong, Hartford with Springfield would be 1,872,537. Providence with New London would be 1,895,274. We could play this game all day...

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And also please note that New London is in Hartford's NOT Providences media market. If we get a team they will watch on their local broadcast network.

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I meant whether anyone thought it would be benficial to brand the team as say the Connecticut Whalers or Connecticut Clippers (one can hope) as opposed to the Hartford Whalers or Hartford Clippers. Does anyone think that would garner more statewide support? I think that it may, but my hometown pride would still like to see Hartford in the logo of any pro team we acquire.

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I think it's just semantics.

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