The Watering Hole

[DwntwnGeo]

Is Chris Knape on vacation? I have become used to regular updates, I feel a little bit in withdrawal here.

New posting from Chris yesterday 8-13-07. He was on a two week vacation to Texas. Should have more news about 275 Fulton, Riverhouse and Icon on Bond in the next week or so.

[Montague]

What are the rules on listing Condo's for sale on these forums?

Is there a place on UP to list downtown condo's for sale so the

members can see them before they go public? Or is this not

acceptable behavior?

I ask because I'm hoping we get someone cool to buy my neighbors

unit when they move out next month. But I'll keep the story to myself

until I know the appropriate way to share.

John

Edited August 14, 2007 by Montague

[GRDadof3]

What are the rules on listing Condo's for sale on these forums?

Is there a place on UP to list downtown condo's for sale so the

members can see them before they go public? Or is this not

acceptable behavior?

I ask because I'm hoping we get someone cool to buy my neighbors

unit when they move out next month. But I'll keep the story to myself

until I know the appropriate way to share.

John

See rule #6:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=260

# We are not a real estate site.

* Do not create posts looking to buy or rent property. (this is not limited to real estate)

* Do not create posts to sell or rent property. (also not limited to real estate)

* Do not attempt to contact members here to buy, sell, or rent propery.

* Don't create topics asking about relocation information. i.e. "Where is a good place to live?"

If blatant advertising were allowed, this site would quickly become a big trashy bulletin board.

Hope that helps.

[Montague]

Indeed it does. Thanks for the quick reply, GRDadof3.

John

[Explorer55]

Hello! Does anyone know why UP didn't "recognize" me for a few months. I was a "non-person". I could read all the postings, but I couldn't reply and the 'smiley' faces showed up as only web links. I saw my "name", but all other information was missing. I tried contacting UP moderators, but that didn't seem to work either. Now all of a sudden, everything is back to normal.

[GR Jackson]

I was wondering if there is anyone actively recruiting people from the east side of the state who have taken the buyouts from the automotive industrusty. Theses people should be looking to start up businesses with their money, and maybe we on this side of the state could capitalize on it.

[GRDadof3]

Hello! Does anyone know why UP didn't "recognize" me for a few months. I was a "non-person". I could read all the postings, but I couldn't reply and the 'smiley' faces showed up as only web links. I saw my "name", but all other information was missing. I tried contacting UP moderators, but that didn't seem to work either. Now all of a sudden, everything is back to normal.

I sent this to Neo. Maybe he'll have some info on what happened.

Sorry for the inconvenience Explorer55.

[Neo]

Hello! Does anyone know why UP didn't "recognize" me for a few months. I was a "non-person". I could read all the postings, but I couldn't reply and the 'smiley' faces showed up as only web links. I saw my "name", but all other information was missing. I tried contacting UP moderators, but that didn't seem to work either. Now all of a sudden, everything is back to normal.

I'm sorry that you had issues using our site. I believe your issue may have been related to browser cache and was local to your end. I don't have records for e-mails exchanged for help requests such as this however so I can't be certain of what your original help request e-mail contained.

If you have any future problems using our site please use the Contact Us link at the top of the page (in the yellow bar) and we will offer assistance to you. Thank you!

[Explorer55]

Thanks, but I did try every way I could think of to contact you. Nothing worked. I was about to use a friend's computer (I had tried both my home and work computer) and sign her up on UP so I could communicate, but then I was "recognized" again.

Oh, well. Hope it stays this way!

[highwayguy]

Anyone see on WoodTV.com that a local family found a lifesaver on Lake Superior? They don't reveal what they found, but obviously its a lifesaver. Is it me or is it from the Fitzgerald? If its authentic it's an increadible find considering the conditions of the lake and how long the ship has been lost.

It has now been determined that it's NOT authentic. The guy who found it now says he'll probably hang it in his shed.

Link: http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=6953374

[GRDadof3]

Saw an interesting sight this weekend. We had to be in Sault Ste Marie for a family situation, and we got to see the new Prince Wind Farm across the St. Mary's River in Sault, Canada. What an awesome sight!! It's Canada's largest wind farm, consisting of 120 windmills covering 20,000 acres (or 31 square miles, almost the size of the city of Grand Rapids) and produces 189 MW of electricity. You can easily see the windmills from the Michigan side because of their height, and they extend quite a few miles across the horizon.

Based on some info I found online, this is roughly about the size of the area:

You can easily see it from multiple areas around Sault Ste Marie, so if you're in the UP, swing by and check it out. I would have taken a picture, but it was hazy, the wind farm is so LONG across the horizon, and I didn't think I could do it justice.

Wish we had more of these in Michigan.

http://www.northernbusinessjournal.ca/site...ent.asp?id=1056

[Rhino6885]

Wish we had more of these in Michigan.

Add it to the list of things I'm jealous Canada does. I caught something the other day about a guy who came up with a practical design for a "personal" windmill that every homeowner could potentially use to power their homes. Each home would require their own, and they're quite large and make some noise. He upset his NIMBY neighbors with the towering windmill, so he has been ordered to shut 'er off until it can be resolved.

Eventually, I'd like to see a good design for a wind power device that is practical for the average homeowner. Though I'm no engineer, it can't be that hard to come up with something that is more compact, as one regular sized windmill can power multiple homes. Solar is another option, but I think it takes quite some time to recapture the initial expense.

[Rhino6885]

Also, is it cost prohibitive for new developments to put up a couple of windmills instead of hooking up to the grid? It would be cool to see Orchard Park/etc. run off of wind from its own footprint. Maybe some legislation to give tax benefits to this type of thing should be in order (maybe they are already)?

[GR Jackson]

Also, is it cost prohibitive for new developments to put up a couple of windmills instead of hooking up to the grid? It would be cool to see Orchard Park/etc. run off of wind from its own footprint. Maybe some legislation to give tax benefits to this type of thing should be in order (maybe they are already)?

I would think that the cost of wiring and hooking windmills up to each individual home would be cost prohibitive, but if you could get a large section of residences to participate then they might go for it based on the savings on their electric bill.

[torgo]

I would think that the cost of wiring and hooking windmills up to each individual home would be cost prohibitive, but if you could get a large section of residences to participate then they might go for it based on the savings on their electric bill.

Possibly, but participants would have to pay for all that land somehow. The windfarm referenced above results in about a half-acre of windfarm land per household, plus the costs of building and running the thing would be added on. I don't know if that would be too expensive for not, but its worth taking into account. I dont think windfarms are realistic on any large scale, but in small towns it might be feasible, and contribute to a piece of the overall "sustainability" puzzle.

Edited August 22, 2007 by torgo

[GRDadof3]

Possibly, but participants would have to pay for all that land somehow. The windfarm referenced above results in about a half-acre of windfarm land per household, plus the costs of building and running the thing would be added on. I don't know if that would be too expensive for not, but its worth taking into account. I dont think windfarms are realistic on any large scale, but in small towns it might be feasible, and contribute to a piece of the overall "sustainability" puzzle.

They're obviously working on a large scale, both in Canada and in neighboring states like Minnesota and Wisconsin. Michigan trail far behind these two. Ontario's goal is to obtain 5% of its energy from wind (as well as other percentages from other renewable energy sources).

Here's a cool "wind map" of Michigan air currents at 50 meters height, showing where the opportunities lie. It's even better at 75 and 100 meters. The problem is the people in rural areas against them.

[Rizzo]

Add to that they don't have to be installed on land. I believe the Dutch or other coastal European countries are developing some wind farms out in the ocean. I'm not sure how feasible that is in Lake Michigan considering the destructive ice sheets.

I'm kind of surprise we aren't hearing more about wave energy considering we live near some large lakes. An international company developed this long (a few hundred feet) snakelike device that is jointed to allow for vertical movement. The snake is jointed so that it captures this positive and negative vertical motion produced by the waves. Then it just converts the mechanical energy produced to stored electricity.

Edited August 23, 2007 by Rizzo

[snoogit]

I'm much more interested in this stuff:

http://www.konarkatech.com/

That tech has the potential to make it onto roofs everywhere. (as long as we can let the "green" roof phase pass) And its something like $1.00 sq ft already making it $4.00 sq ft cheaper then current cells.

[Nitro]

(as long as we can let the "green" roof phase pass)

Why do you call green roofs a phase?

[snoogit]

Why do you call green roofs a phase?

I just don't see it lasting too long. Theres been lots of "eco-phases" Plastic Bags, "Earth Ships", the list goes on... I just feel that some buildings will take advantage of having a lawn on the roof, but its adoption will be short lived. Why? while a green roof might not need to be replaced but once every 50 years, it does have to be maintained. So the whole Idea of moving into the city to avoid lawn care has just been thrown out the window. Is the cost of not replacing the roof as often save more money compared to just keeping roofs the way they are, and not having to pay for lawn care, even if theres an eventual replacement in 50 years?

I have a feeling that green roofs might be adopted by a few buildings now, and they will be around till the day I die since they last 50 years, and by that time I'll be in my late 70s early 80s. you will see fewer and fewer of them as the reality of keeping a green roof from becoming a jungle roof mount up. I'm all for finding ways to reduce a building's impact on the environment, but green roofs aren't the #1 solution.

And what about the added weight of the storm water? green roofs can eliminate store water runoff? that means the weight of that water is added to the roof... while some structures might be able to handle the weight, I'd say a good chunk of structures WON'T.

[Veloise]

...So the whole Idea of moving into the city to avoid lawn care has just been thrown out the window. Is the cost of not replacing the roof as often save more money compared to just keeping roofs the way they are, and not having to pay for lawn care, even if theres an eventual replacement in 50 years?

Is that even a concern? (Where's that one green roof on that hospital, somewhere on M-6? And there's some car company in Dearborn that did one; I doubt it had to do with the price of a lawnmower.)

I have a feeling that green roofs might be adopted by a few buildings now, and they will be around till the day I die since they last 50 years, and by that time I'll be in my late 70s early 80s. you will see fewer and fewer of them as the reality of keeping a green roof from becoming a jungle roof mount up. I'm all for finding ways to reduce a building's impact on the environment, but green roofs aren't the #1 solution.

And what about the added weight of the storm water? green roofs can eliminate store water runoff? that means the weight of that water is added to the roof... while some structures might be able to handle the weight, I'd say a good chunk of structures WON'T.

Someone might benefit by reading the Green Roof description piece.

[Rhino6885]

I just don't see it lasting too long. Theres been lots of "eco-phases" Plastic Bags, "Earth Ships", the list goes on... I just feel that some buildings will take advantage of having a lawn on the roof, but its adoption will be short lived. Why? while a green roof might not need to be replaced but once every 50 years, it does have to be maintained. So the whole Idea of moving into the city to avoid lawn care has just been thrown out the window. Is the cost of not replacing the roof as often save more money compared to just keeping roofs the way they are, and not having to pay for lawn care, even if theres an eventual replacement in 50 years?

The people moving into the city to avoid lawn care aren't the ones who have to take care of the green roofs--that's for management of the building to take care of. Furthermore, what about the blue hairs who have had gardens to maintain for most of their lives? I'm sure one or two of a hundred condo dwellers would love to have a green space to take care of. I suppose we can only speculate, but I see the number of green roofs increasing and becoming a standard feature of new construction.

I have a feeling that green roofs might be adopted by a few buildings now, and they will be around till the day I die since they last 50 years, and by that time I'll be in my late 70s early 80s. you will see fewer and fewer of them as the reality of keeping a green roof from becoming a jungle roof mount up. I'm all for finding ways to reduce a building's impact on the environment, but green roofs aren't the #1 solution.

And what about the added weight of the storm water? green roofs can eliminate store water runoff? that means the weight of that water is added to the roof... while some structures might be able to handle the weight, I'd say a good chunk of structures WON'T.

You're right. For new construction, the engineers take into consideration the added weight. For existing construction, extra support may have to be added. Nitro knows WAAAAY more than I do, but I remember hearing that the Bazzani green roof was ok because the building was constructed with the plan to add additional floors, so the structure has no problem supporting it.

[Nitro]

I just feel that some buildings will take advantage of having a lawn on the roof, but its adoption will be short lived. Why? while a green roof might not need to be replaced but once every 50 years, it does have to be maintained. So the whole Idea of moving into the city to avoid lawn care has just been thrown out the window. Is the cost of not replacing the roof as often save more money compared to just keeping roofs the way they are, and not having to pay for lawn care, even if theres an eventual replacement in 50 years?

Well, let's first make sure we're all on the same page. Green roofs don't necessarily (or usually) mean grasses. We're talking Sedum and Allium plants here. You don't need to rent a goat to maintain one of these things. You'd be surprised just how little maintenance a green roof really needs. We've gone the extra mile on our roofs but you don't really have to babysit them. Granted, in the first growing season you'll need to water it regularly until they are established, but after that you can pretty well leave it to its own devices. In a extensive green roof (</= 4" of soil) there isn't enough soil depth to do grasses.

I have a feeling that green roofs might be adopted by a few buildings now, and they will be around till the day I die since they last 50 years, and by that time I'll be in my late 70s early 80s. you will see fewer and fewer of them as the reality of keeping a green roof from becoming a jungle roof mount up. I'm all for finding ways to reduce a building's impact on the environment, but green roofs aren't the #1 solution.

You're making some assumptions about green roofs here that aren't really true. See my answer up above. I think you're dead wrong about the numbers of green roofs. You are going to see exponential growth of green roofs here in the US. Look at the European model, they have been building green roofs for many centuries. This isn't new technology, and it isn't going away anytime fast.

You are right, they aren't the #1 solution, but they are a very important piece of the solution. Let's take a look from a business standpoint of the systems in place at the East Hills Center building. All stormwater that falls on that site stays on site and is infiltrated back to the environment naturally in the rain garden or is absorbed by the green roof. What does that mean from a developers standpoint? Well, we did have to pay more for the green roof but in return we didn't have to pay for concrete curbs around the site to direct water, we didn't have to put in catch basins to catch all of that water, we didn't have to put conveyance pipes to carry the water to the storm sewer, and we didn't have to pay the municipal tap fees to the storm sewer. When you step back and look at all of the implications they start to make a lot of sense.

Now, what are the secondary benefits? I've placed a lot of dirt on my roof membrane so it isn't being exposed to the sun. I've now extended the life of my roofing membrane by: 50, 75, maybe more years? How long does a piece of plastic last in a landfill that isn't exposed to the sun? As a developer, what does that do to my replacement reserves for longterm maintenance on a building? It lowers them a lot. I've also helped reduce the urban heat island effect, and created habitat for wildlife and a host of other good benefits.

The dirty little secret of the combined sewer overflow separation project here in Grand Rapids is that as we continue to separate the sewers the quality of the Grand River is declining. It makes absolute sense, we're no longer sending dirty stormwater into the wastewater treatment plant so all of the crap it picks up over land is now being dumped untreated into the river. If we wish to maintain the quality of the best resource our region has (our water) The onus is back on us as designers, architects, engineers, and developers to make sure we are doing our part.

Every stormwater department from the City of Grand Rapids to the Michigan DEQ to the EPA is now advocating Low Impact Development techniques as best management practices. Rain gardens, bio swales, infiltration trenches, porous pavement, and green roofs are now on everybody's radar.

And what about the added weight of the storm water? green roofs can eliminate store water runoff? that means the weight of that water is added to the roof... while some structures might be able to handle the weight, I'd say a good chunk of structures WON'T.

Green roofs are designed to hold a certain amount of stormwater usually 1" or so. If there is more then that it will runoff into a roof overflow drain. Taking the East Hills Center example again, our roof drains are piped into the rain garden. The roof uses what it can and the rest gets infiltrated in the rain garden.

Retrofitting a building that wasn't designed to carry the weight can be challenging. However, there is more then one system in development designed to be light weight for retrofits. I have a prototype here at the office.

Don't think green roofs are just granola and Birkenstock's. They are functional tools that we use very effectively.

[Veloise]

Here's a link to a petition.

Just

sign

it.

http://www.nola.com/mardigras/petition/ind...n/petition.html

[gvsusean]

Here's a link to a petition.

Just

sign

it.

http://www.nola.com/mardigras/petition/ind...n/petition.html

what is this a link too?