Dorothea Dix Property

[sax184]

If one sees accessibility as a problem for Dix, that would be true if it were to converted to park as is. That will not happen under any rational circumstance.

Well, converting the park as is seems to be the message from Dix 306. We need to "preserve" (read:keep things the SAME) the park! All 306 acres!

I love your big ideas. Seriously- you may be the most interesting poster on this board by a long shot. Unfortunately, Raleigh is thinking small bore on most items related to urbanism, which is why the 306 Dix outcome is the option with the most steam in the community right now.

Sadly, I feel that in fact, the conversion to a park "as is" outcome is among the most LIKELY end results, of not the most likely one.

[ncwebguy]

Dix 306's plan *is* to keep the land as is. That is why there is no budget for maintenance and operation of the park. It is to be a "destination" with no way to get there. They have never addressed the train tracks that run through the property, and want to demolish most builings and tear up the existing parking spaces.

As much sense as it would make to move Central Prison to some other part of the state that could use the economic boost and free up downtown Raleigh space, that isn't going to happen any time soon. If it was, it would have received more attention throughout the Dix closing/Butner facility opening coverage.

To pay for the park, the "all park" crowd wants to focus development on the Lake Wheeler and NC State side. Unfortunatly, NC State won't contribute to the tax base and doesn't want to build on the scale necessary to get anywhere near "Central Park" numbers. They won't build parking decks on the edge of Centennial on their own, though it makes the most sense. They could use that for park and ride to "traditional" and Centennial campuses, but so far they're happy paving over the former Dix farm's land.

On Lake Wheeler, combining parcels will be a lot easier said than done northeast of the boat dealership. Also, a woman was murdered there Friday morning while delivering USA Today newspapers at the gas station/subway across from the Farmer's Market. The land along the train tracks is a known homeless camp, and the existing housing/office/warehouse stock (other than Caraleigh Mills!) leaves a *lot* to be desired.

Pullen Park is bad enough on the weekends with the parking there. Adding a few more spaces to the Farmer's Market lot won't be enough for Dix Park. Most of those spaces are already taken for the market on the weekends already.

The ironic thing is that there was *no* discussion of Dix as park until the city started moving the dirt from the Convention Center site to the soccer fields to create the hill. That made sense because it saved money on having to put the dirt somewhere else, and shortened the dump trucks' trips. Creating a park and creating a hill are two different options though.

I *hope* the city made the $10.5 million offer in the hopes of getting a counter offer. It is too small for all of the land, but could start the discussion for a park/development partnership. Lake Wheeler Road would have to be improved, as would connection to downtown.

If everyone saw the forest for the trees (and had enough money and will):

- Central Prison would go elsewhere, maybe south of 440 of Garner Road if not a small town that wanted it.

- Govenor Morehead School could be moved to some of the rennovated Dix buildings and dorms, or incoprorated in new development on a part of Lake Wheeler Road kept by the state.

- Pullen/Govenor Morehead/Central Prison form the north end of the park, with a TTA station at Central Prison serving the park, redvelopment of some prison land, and Boylan Heights.

- Lake Wheeler/South Saudners would be realigned, allowing Lake Wheeler pass under Western where South Saunders does now, NW through part of existing Heritage Park (which would be redone with HUD money like Halifax/Capitol Park and Chavis Heights) and tie in with Dawson/McDowell.

- the South Street/Saunders intersection would be primed for redevlopement of 7-10 story apartment/condo buildings, fueling development toward downtown and the multi-modal station. Affordable housing is mixed in like Carlton Place and Gateway Park.

- South Saunders from Lake Wheeler to Ray Price is realigned to tie to Lake Wheeler. This could be mixed use -- office space to compliment state agencies and residences for those workers and anyone else wanting a southside downtown vibe.

- The state builds offices for DHHS (if they want to stay) and DENR as a Green Square replacement. Move the museum of Natural Sciences to the natural 200+ acre park and convert the existing museum space into an expanded Museum of North Carolina (not just history), with folk art, music, culture, etc. that the NC Museum of Art and CAM ignore.

- the mixed use area steps down as it approaches the Maywood corridor, with a "North Hills/Crabtree/Cameron Village" feel closer to Lake Wheeler and South Saunders, and an eclectic art studios, volume 11 and other clubs feel closer to Maywood. A transit stop there could serve the office workers coming in from parts east and residents going to downtown, RTP, etc.

- The farmer's market would be slightly realigned, with the public/open air market closer to Lake Wheeler. The "grocery store" part could stay in the same spot. The market would anchors other shopping along Maywood, like a Fisherman's Wharf for NC produce and other products.

- NC State builds Graduate student housing off Centennial, with parking decks to support students during the day and park visitors at night. Possibly a hotel run by college of managment and parks/rec/hospitality programs. Tie to Lake Raleigh via bike/walking trail and possibly tram.

- the Catholic campus is consolidated and the old Cardinal Gibbons is redevloped as a family friendly area, possibly tieing in with Mission Valley. A "year round carnival" with rides, restaurants, etc. could supplement the carousel and playground at Pullen and tie into the park. edit: Ferris Wheel with downtown views goes here!

But this will never happen because of the "all or nothing" mentality. All park or all devlopment are the only arguments presented to people who will make the decision.

Edited June 18, 2007 by ncwebguy

[ChiefJoJo]

Here is Bob Geary's take on the Raleigh's effort to buy Dix.

But Meeker's ace in the hole could be the announced departure of Health and Human Services Secretary Carmen Hooker Odom, much-maligned for the Easley administration's mental-health failures, and her replacement by Dempsey Benton. Yes, that Dempsey Benton, the ex-Raleigh city manager who goes way back with Meeker.

Benton had his critics as manager-some said he was too developer-friendly, unkind remarks that are ancient history now-but he was always known as in command and able to cut the deal. Which perhaps explains the little smile Meeker allowed himself as he mentioned Benton. This is not going to be an easy deal to cut, not in the grand design and certainly not in the fine print of who gets what, when. But in Benton, Meeker's got a counterpart capable of cutting it with him.

First, the grand design. DHHS wants to build offices on Dix Hill. But Meeker and Benton know that a new department headquarters is just right for our up-and-coming downtown, where state parking lots await their makeover. Now all of Dix can be a park, with the historic hospital buildings adapted for uses consistent with the park plan. Is that vague enough for you? Which buildings are historic again? Or is it the whole campus? And by the way, what is the park plan?

Looks like ncwebguy's and my idea for the DHHS building (and Cap Area Visitors Center) being located downtown might just be a little closer to reality. Regardless of what exactly happens with Dix (80% park or 100% park), I think locating DHHS out there is a plain dumb idea, and if the state and city could actually try to partner on this (Meeker and Benton for starters, then the Gov), it would make too much sense not to build their building downtown, and leave Dix out of the equation for that complex.

[DanRNC]

An interesting quote was that Meeker had hinted that a deal was closer than people think.

2 important things that the press conference highlighted were:

1. There is private investment in this property from the different groups-I am sure the City of Raleigh can eventually pony up more cash.

2. The differing factions have appeared to become more united (at least in public).

It was definitely more of united Raleigh coalition.

[Jones_]

I was in a meeting with Dempsey on Tuesday......did anyone realize Health and Human Services had a 14 Billion dolar budget!!?? Thas 70% of the States entire budget. Jesus. Dempsey was pretty frustrated with DENR....I am suprised he took this job.....the Governor, or Dan Gerlach must have approached him directly.

[pdxheel]

I was in a meeting with Dempsey on Tuesday......did anyone realize Health and Human Services had a 14 Billion dolar budget!!?? Thas 70% of the States entire budget. Jesus. Dempsey was pretty frustrated with DENR....I am suprised he took this job.....the Governor, or Dan Gerlach must have approached him directly.

I don't think those budget numbers are correct, maybe they include Federal Funds. In the Governor's Budget HHS' budget was $4.5B and in the Legislature it is around $5B. Still large, but not 70% (more like 25%).

[JeffC]

I wouldn't look for anything bold here in the twilight of the Easley administration. These guys are now counting down the months until they leave office...look for the exodus from the political jobs to only escalate from now on. Dempsey has clearly been brought in as a caretaker to "make the trains run on time" in DHHS until the next administration takes office. And good luck to him making the trains run on time in that convoluted department.

[Jones_]

I don't think those budget numbers are correct, maybe they include Federal Funds. In the Governor's Budget HHS' budget was $4.5B and in the Legislature it is around $5B. Still large, but not 70% (more like 25%).

hmm....he pretty clearly said 14B to the oohs and ahhs of the gathered agency heads......Dempsey was closing out some DENR duties at this meeting, of which I am a part. Maybe we all misheard....or just me....

[pdxheel]

hmm....he pretty clearly said 14B to the oohs and ahhs of the gathered agency heads......Dempsey was closing out some DENR duties at this meeting, of which I am a part. Maybe we all misheard....or just me....

The 14B probably includes Federal funds, receipts, etc. But I doubt the 14B is solely General Fund (Taxpayer) money. Unless I'm reading the information posted online for the Gov's Budget and Leg's Budgets the $14B is incorrect.

[Jones_]

The 14B probably includes Federal funds, receipts, etc. But I doubt the 14B is solely General Fund (Taxpayer) money. Unless I'm reading the information posted online for the Gov's Budget and Leg's Budgets the $14B is incorrect.

Here is the one I am reading......I agree with your general fund assessment....

[vitaviatic]

Arggh...

I see a lot of focus on how much Dix will cost, and how Raleigh should treat the whole process like buying a piece of pottery in a Marrakech bazaar. It may very well be done that way, and with all "306" going to parkland. While that would be wonderful, and far better than McOfficePark, I might have some concerns that once the property is acquired, that the park would add several million dollars per year in upkeep expenditures, all coming out of the city's general fund, thus raising the ire of Raleigh taxpayers (justifiably so), and in conjunction, making for a less than satisfying experience in the new park itself. In fact, done wrong, this whole thing could be a ten year money bomb going tick...tick...tick...

I like Bob Geary's writing/reporting. His work is pointed (he nailed the hell out of Soleil Center's evolution and ascendence in Crabtree Valley) and seems to navigate the backwaters of these types of deals very well. Which makes me afraid that he is right on this one too, and a huge opportunity is going to be blown here.

Saving all 306 acres for a park is a noble cause, one that I do not disagree with on principle. I do, however, doubt the viability of this plan. Conserving the park is great. But what about tomorrow? The model parks that I have compared Dix to (as well as the supporters and would-be benefactors of Dix -- read all of the tired "Central Park" comparisons -- btw, Central Park is not a viable model for Raleigh for several reasons) are not simplistic museum pieces. They are, to a large extent, self-sustaining economic generators in their own right. Let's take my favorite (and maybe the best model comparison for Raleigh) -- San Diego's Balboa Park, which sports an IMAX theater, Botanic Gardens, Aviary, History Museum, Spreckels Organ and Starlight Bandshell (for concerts), Automotive, Aerospace, and Sports Museums, the Starlight and Old Globe dramatic theater venues, and lest we not forget, the San Diego Zoo. These are ALL revenue producing entities (the Zoo alone makes the park revenue positive for the city) and provide income to maintain the city's park system. In addition to all of this, Balboa is home to the San Diego Youth Symphony, San Diego Civic Youth Ballet, the San Diego Junior Theatre, the Marie Hitchcock Puppet Theater, and the Photographic Arts Building (which houses the SoCal Camera Clubs). Keep in mind that, without Balboa Park, and the facilities available there (as would be at Dix as well if the hospital facilities were modified and kept largely intact), these low-budget societies would most likely not exist, because hardly any of them could even afford office space at market rates. There is also the Spanish Village Art Center, which is a collection of galleries rented by artists, who sell their wares at the same time they educate and entertain visitors. Similar high income parks can be found in San Francisco, St. Louis, Seattle, Denver, and to some degree, Phoenix. (Notice I only compared Raleigh with cities of similar size now, or which were recently of similar size to Raleigh today -- within the last 25 to 30 years, say.)

I have never seen any parks package like this anywhere in the South (sorry folks, Underground Atlanta doesn't qualify). San Diego benefited at the turn of the twentieth century from the Panama Canal and the Panama-Pacific Exhibition (the first world's fair). Like so many other things, Raleigh is being gifted with the closure of Dix (which has a history of its own, and pre-existing facilities to boot) for the chance to be the breakout Southern city to pull this off. San Diego is a great bellwether for Raleigh in that, although on a bigger scale, it is a booming technoburb, with a well-cultivated convention business and a superhot downtown condo market. Intuition might tell you that most conventioneers in San Diego head for the beach. Wrong. They head for Balboa Park -- a large percentage of those to the Zoo. Most conventioneers in San Diego are Californians who have their own beaches. But even for Californians, Balboa is a special treat. That's what you want.

(I've always wondered why, with a great vet school like NCSU has, a terrific zoo couldn't be organized there in the Triangle. It seems like a dream laboratory for vet students to me.)

Having said all of that, in order to start up a first class urban park you will need a well-endowed trust fund. A couple of million won't do. You need a serious income stream that will rollover cash over the years, big enough that the park district can live off the interest. How to do that? Spinoff of peripheral land. There isn't much that you can do with 306 acres that you can't do with 225 or 250. You might be able to generate a nice chunk of income with a zoo and/or other attractions, but your startup capital costs will more than offset your income for the first ten or fifteen years, maybe longer. Develop the perimeter high density. Now here comes the math...

Suppose the perimeter parcels averaged $350k per acre (and I think that is verrrrry conservative once the park becomes a reality) and 80 acres go on the block...

= $28,000,000 to the trust fund right off the bat.

Now, remember that I mentioned a couple of hotels? The new Convention Center is developing the Marriott (fine, whoo-hoo), but they will need more room inventory, and ostensibly so will NCSU for Centennial and Main Campus visitors. Unless they are planning on developing hotels themselves (bad idea to waste campus land like that), the parkside hotels would do double-duty, high-rate service for downtown and NCSU both (within easy shuttle distance, or medium exertion walking distance to the Convention Center and the MMTC rail station (if it ever gets built and service started). Assume two high profile hotels, total room inventory of 1,000 rooms...

1,000 rooms x 62% occupancy rate = 620 occupied rooms per night

620 x 365 nights per year = 226,300 additional room/nights per year (for the parkside hotels only)

Average rate = $150 per night (low!)

226,300 x 150 = $33,945,000 gross room revenue per year

33,945,000 x .06 hotel occupancy tax (laughably low compared to most major cities -- 8% to 10% is normal) =

$2,036,700 in additional hotel tax generations per year for the city and county

If the park district taxes the hotels an extra 1% (if it's a quasi) =

33,945,000 x .01 park distict tax (PDT) = $339,400 per year

339,400/4 = $84,850 quarterly PDT revenues

Now...

$28,000,000 = present value (the proceeds from the initial land sales to start the park trust)

4 payments per year (quarterly) x 30 years = 120 payments

$84,850 per quarterly deposit (from PDT proceeds)

8.0% interest

= $342,853,269 future value @ Y30 (without reductions for operating funds)

Feel free to proof these numbers. (My calculator has sometimes been known to lie to me.) It's a standard TVM equation for a straight deposit scenario. In practice, a 1/2% to 1% would be drawn off for operational funding, but the variables are so myriad that I'm not even going there. Suffice it to say that there would be (the trust managed properly) plenty of money to maintain the 225 acre park (and who knows, perhaps acquire more land later). And that's independent of self-generated income from within the park itself.

This only throws two hotels into the fold. Several office and condo towers contributing a similar assessment would add even more. Keep in mind that the hotel operators who set up around the park are not likely to quibble. After all, it's in their own self-interest to make sure the park is maintained as a high-quality marketable attraction. At the same time they can write off the park assessments on federal (and probably state taxes as well -- not sure about that one). This is an almost unheard of opportunity to harness the power of the Dix land, and make it a jewel for Raleigh, the Triangle, and the state.

Not everyone is an anti-tax curmudgeon in this world. In Denver, we have a 1% sales tax for transit, and a .1% sales tax for the Scientific and Cultural Facilities District (SCFD), which goes to support the local libraries, museums, parks, the zoo, botanical gardens, Denver Center for the Performing Arts, and long list of other cultural entities. I, for one, happily pay those taxes. I take light rail to work at least four days a week, saving me a wad of cash every month, far over what I pay in those taxes. As for the SCFD tax, I can go to a world class library and check out a book in any of 22 languages (that's just the ones I've counted), or to a top tier art museum, zoo, botanical garden, or theatrical production for free (they have free days for local residents as "appreciation days" several times per year).

A little off topic, but here's the tie-in...

People in Raleigh do not like to pay taxes. For any reason. Maybe for a highway, basketball arena, or half a hospital. That's who Raleigh is, collectively speaking. These are ideas to get around that, and still have high caliber attractions. In my late teens I left Raleigh, realizing sadly that it probably was never going to be what I wanted in a city, and being an urban dweller at heart, set out for various locales from the Pacific to Latin America, and a dozen American states. That doesn't mean that I don't like Raleigh, the Triangle, or North Carolina -- far from it. I care, and I have been impressed at times at how far things have come. But I see the burghers still aiming low -- paying millions to keep Dix a glorified pasture for the benefit of Boylan Heights gentry, generally kaboshing anything that smacks of urbanity. I would love to be wrong here, but I wonder.

So please, prove me wrong on this one d@mmit! And get yourself a great park and city district in this process!

[Gard]

Arggh...

(I've always wondered why, with a great vet school like NCSU has, a terrific zoo couldn't be organized there in the Triangle. It seems like a dream laboratory for vet students to me.)

Having said all of that, in order to start up a first class urban park you will need a well-endowed trust fund. A couple of million won't do. You need a serious income stream that will rollover cash over the years, big enough that the park district can live off the interest. How to do that? Spinoff of peripheral land. There isn't much that you can do with 306 acres that you can't do with 225 or 250. You might be able to generate a nice chunk of income with a zoo and/or other attractions, but your startup capital costs will more than offset your income for the first ten or fifteen years, maybe longer. Develop the perimeter high density. Now here comes the math...

I never thought of a zoo, but that is an EXCELLENT idea! Not only would it be good for the University, it would greatly benefit the city as well and give us what would really be a major tourist attraction. I really think a zoo would do well in Raleigh, attracting people from all over the region to it and even providing a good place for schools to have field trips. I will certainly be bringing this up to my representatives in both the city and state.

[orulz]

I never thought of a zoo, but that is an EXCELLENT idea! Not only would it be good for the University, it would greatly benefit the city as well and give us what would really be a major tourist attraction. I really think a zoo would do well in Raleigh, attracting people from all over the region to it and even providing a good place for schools to have field trips. I will certainly be bringing this up to my representatives in both the city and state.

Good luck getting the state to contribute any money whatsoever to that zoo with Asheboro just down the road...

[bullcity76]

They should be able to raise plenty of money from the Dix 306 crowd... Since it looks like Dix is going to be mostly a park, the City should do all it can to make it and Pullen Park a destination park. Pullen could use an upgrade along with improvements at Dix.

[tjoad]

Story discussing Dix's value.

There was brief mention of a public-private partnership by Greg Poole Jr.:

"It's very important that a distinction is made between [the campus being] sold to be commercially developed or to a public-private partnership that plans to invest millions in it," said Greg Poole Jr., president of Dix Visionaries.

Poole said he is open to the idea of having a public-private partnership lease the property.

"We could work with that," he said.

I hope more people begin seeing this as the best solution. A public-private partnership, if properly planned and executed, will provide the best utilization of this precious land, than either an all-private or all-public purchase. There are so many possibilities if the city and developers work together.

[JeffC]

the current NC Zoo represents the sort of political split the baby solution ("NC needs a world class zoo. We can't decide whether to put it in Charlotte, the Triad, or the Triangle, so lets split the baby and put it in between in the middle of nowhere.") Result: a pretty good zoo with lots of land to expand into acquired fairly cheaply compared to say, land in downtown Raleigh or Charlotte, but one with no built in political constituency of any consequence (what kind of clout does Asheboro wield in the General Assembly, post Harold Brubaker?), and thus a perpetual scramble for funds from a disinterested legislature (their master plan was supposed to be built out when? 1990? They only have Africa and North America finished, and its taken so long that recent capital expenditures were used to renovate and overhaul what they already have...)

Upshot of all that? Efforts to build a zoo in Raleigh would be opposed to the death by the entire current zoo bureaucracy, as well as the Zoo Society, their booster group. So the chances of state funding would be, well, zippo. The fight over where to put a world class zoo in North Carolina was fought and lost back in the 1960s. I have no idea if Raleigh made any kind of serious push to get it. I'd guess no... anyone remember?

Edited June 25, 2007 by JeffC

[CHGuy]

I think a couple of years ago the Zoo decided not build any further continents. They didn't think they would ever get the funding for it. I could be wrong. Someone will have to verify.

[DanRNC]

The NC Zoo is a great facility but has been a victim of terrible PR. When was the last time you saw an ad on TV for the place? Back in my former life when I was an intern at a philanthropic organization that helped fund the place, we kept emphasizing the need for increased advertising for the zoo but this advice went in one ear and out the other. The zoo does underscore the mentality in this state-talk big but do nothing to back up the talk financially.

[Jones_]

The zoo does underscore the mentality in this state-talk big but do nothing to back up the talk financially.

Unless of course your name is "Lottery"

[sax184]

Spinoff of peripheral land. There isn't much that you can do with 306 acres that you can't do with 225 or 250.

With 306 acres, you can appease the well-organized "freeze it in time" crowd. Again, you have excellent suggestions. But where's the constituency for it? We've had a few fits and starts of people trying to channel the gripes about the non-urbanity of Raleigh, but the forces of NIMBYism and preservation of the status quo remain much better organized.

Maybe the question here that is the answer to a lot of the problems we discuss is actually a meta-question.

What would build a constituency for urbanity in Raleigh and the Triangle? WakeUP Wake County? SparkCon?

[ChiefJoJo]

I got this note from the 306 listserve:

#1 GENERAL ASSEMBLY ADJOUNS

[ChiefJoJo]

Wake Co mental health officals want Dix to remain open, even after the state opens the new Butner mental health facility.

Wake County is planning to build a new mental health crisis center to open in 2010. And under an agreement with the county, private Holly Hill Hospital would add 44 beds for poor patients to make up for the loss of Dix. But the Holly Hill beds would not be available until early 2009.

Dix could fill the gaps for Wake until Holly Hill and the crisis center are open. Durham said county administrators are working for a plan to offer commissioners this fall.

Clearly, the county has been using Dix--a state facility--for what should be local govt mental healthcare responsibility.

[Gard]

Looks like at least part of Dorthea Dix will be kept open until 2011 in a deal between Wake County and the state:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/776570.html

[Jones_]

As much as folks like to dream about a huge park or a perfectly planned urban environment or a hybrid of the two...ultimately the needs of the mental health treatment community outweigh all our dreams at this point.....the community based approach has failed utterly according to the article...having these beds is much better than having these people turned out on the streets.

[ChiefJoJo]

As much as folks like to dream about a huge park or a perfectly planned urban environment or a hybrid of the two...ultimately the needs of the mental health treatment community outweigh all our dreams at this point.....the community based approach has failed utterly according to the article...having these beds is much better than having these people turned out on the streets.

Unfortunately, this exposes a major failure of Wake's HHS Dept, in that they have (unfairly) been using Dix as an inpatient mental health facility for years, even though it belongs to the state, and the county should have been planning for it's own facility for years. This new lease agreement is pretty much an admission of that. Somehow, they are just now getting around to dealing with the facility needs.