Dorothea Dix Property

[orulz]

area can be preserved as open land, and possibly a ped bridge over western boulevard and making it a pullen park annex.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I bet that some sort of improved pedestrian facility over Western Blvd. is already planned once the Rocky Branch Greenway is extended through campus. The current Pullen Rd. connection sucks. The sidewalk is narrow, and it doesn't even extend as far as campus! Try riding a bike to campus from the greenway along pullen. The stoplight doesn't help at all. What a joke.

Pullen Rd. was listed as "functionally obsolete" on the state's list of bridges most desperately in need of replacement. I think I read somewhere that along with a new bridge and interchange at Western Blvd, Pullen Dr. would be widened to 4 lanes and extended to intersect Centennial Parkway directly across from Main Campus Dr. That would be a great way to connect Main Campus and Centennial. A bike path could share such a bridge without traffic conflicts if the exits were done in a four-ramp partial cloverleaf configuration (like I-40 @ Davis Dr in RTP, or Wade Ave @ Oberlin Rd) where all the ramps are on one side of Pullen. Unfortunately any changes to the Pullen/Western interchange would be difficult to accomplish without losing at least a few of the huge oak trees in the median. At any rate, this project, along with the Avent Ferry/Western Blvd interchange, are both unfunded and at least 5 years away.

[ralex231]

i disagree with it being a 100% park completely saying that pullen park is only a couple of blocks down the road and that the D Dix's is so spectacular for development

[foodpainter]

I love parks, and I like the idea of keeping part of it a park, but adding some desirable ITB real estate (houses or condos) would get more people living downtown.

Too bad we don't have a minor league baseball team- it would be a cool place for a ball park.

[blueize74]

People's Voices Shape Dix's Future

It's interesting to juxtapose this article to what we discussed a while back. What do you think?

[Tayfromcarolina]

There is a public session for input tonight from 6-8 at the convention center there are 3 different options the public can vote on.

[blueize74]

What to expect in the future...

News & Observer Clip

[ChiefJoJo]

article from today's N&O

[orulz]

I haven't been to many of these public work sessions before, but I went to this one and left feeling rather underwhelmed with the outcome on the whole.

Many people came to the meeting looking to pick a fight over anything that didn't leave the "big field" as is, and there were large delegations from the Raleigh Charter School and the Triangle Youth Philharmonic. I agree that the Charter School would be an excellent use for the Dix land; however, I don't necessarily agree with the tactic of throwing lots of people at the public meeting (they had representatives at nearly every table) in order to create the illusion that public opinion is really so slanted in their favor.

I felt there were some great ideas, but the vast majority of the people there suggested something that would leave it almost exactly like it is. There was a common sentiment that making even one tiny parcel of the Dix property available to private development (particularly residential development) is a travesty. This is a very predictable reaction and seems to be closely related to knee-jerk nimbyism. I'm sorry, but the present configuration of Dix is hardly effective for any type of use.

People kept coming back to the idea of Central Park, and the analogy to New York City was drawn many times. I believe that such a concept would never work in Raleigh, and is not something that we need anyhow. I say: if you need acres of undeveloped land? Head to Umstead. Sure, some segments of Dix are absolutely worth preservation, but Dix is far from pristine in the first place, and too valuable to the city to be simply dedicated as a giant "big field."

One concept that I did find attractive was the idea of demolishing the old hospital building. It's old, laced with asbestos, and has been expanded with countless additions, each of a different architectural style, giving it a haphazard appearance and a confusing layout. The building is not well suited to adaptive reuse, nor is there anything particularly historically significant about it. Many of the surrounding, smaller buildings could be reused for office space but the majority of the activity on the Dix campus should be pushed towards the edge of the parcel , along Lake Wheeler Rd.

Personally, would love to see mixed use (private!!) development along Lake Wheeler Rd. The Dix campus should not just be a destination park that people visit on the weekends, it should be a place used daily by people who live there, work there, or play there. Unfortunately, the word "private" was almost a swear word among the crowd at the meeting last night.

This gives me the impression that:

1) Some people don't 'get' how public interests can be served by appropriate, well-executed, and well-managed private development

2) Some people don't understand the process for involving private developers in projects like this.

I get the feeling that these people expected a Super Wal-Mart and McMansions on the property if the private sector were involved at all. This couldn't be further from the case. The land would not be sold haphazardly to the highest bidder. Instead, it would probably be leased, and the state would issue a RFP in which developers submit their ideas for the property and the best plan among them is selected in a process similar to the redevelopment of Blount St.

In defense of the public's hostility, however, I don't think that LandDesign did a particularly good job coming up with the three alternatives. They basically covered all the extremes, leaving it up to the public to interpolate between them and find a compromise.The "mixed use" alternative called for private development of a lot of the prime land, but the "central park" concept left way too much area underutilized. Perhaps that left people with the notion that it was an all-or-nothing deal on the park. None of the presented alternatives attempted to strike any sort of a balance and as a result they were uniformly unappealing. I found it very difficult to visualise what the property might actually look like in the end.

I hope the consultants can come up with something more meaningful during the next step of the process.

[JunktionFET]

If it is kept as a largely undeveloped park, it will turn into another Fayetteville St Mall debacle. Raleigh is not New York City. I agree that while some of the people probably had a well thought out argument, others were there just to spout some overbearing and idealistic vision--one that they might personally never even take advantage of!

[orulz]

I really wish I was good enough at thinking on my feet to formulate a response on the spot to what I saw and heard. Unfortunately I'm the kind of guy who needs to "sleep on it" to really sort things out in my mind (I'd make a terrible lawyer!) I would have been more vocal in my "breakout group" but words just failed me.

Oh well. Maybe I'll write a letter to the N&O.

Edited May 19, 2005 by orulz

[ericurbanite]

yea i mean the people at the meeting atleast most of them were like a cult and were against anything but a park. I mean i dont think your getting a clear public opinion on what needs to be done with dorthea dix. Now politicians are going to have to go with a park because well they will loose there votes for next election because of all these tree huggers. with 300 acres thats a lot of land, theres still room for plenty of park. I like the idea of development along lake wheeler, but it cant be like sprawl development. It should have an urban feel to it. Also, it would be nice to have a large ampitheatre overlooking the raleigh skyline and it would be great to host the live after 5 events there that they do during the summer. The aquarium sounds good too, but itll probably be a crappy aquarium just like other cities of raleigh's size. So i say park with development on lake wheeler with civic activities.

But sorry guys looks like its going to be a big park with tree huggers.

[Tayfromcarolina]

I would say I agree with you Ericurbanite. However, I have always kept one thing in mind, and that is>>> The city wants money. I too was at the meeting tuesday and just wanted to tell some of the idiots there to sit down, and shut up. They were so vocal about the park, that they were interupting the individuals with the LandDesign team and what not. They can be as vocal as they want to be, but still it was just 150 people. (Curse those Nimby's) and when it comes down to it, the city of Raleigh is going to pick the option, or combination of options which is gonna put some money back in their pockets.

After all, many objected, and are still objecting about the fayetteville street mall project, and the new convention center. But as anyone can tell both of those passed anyway. And I'm glad they did.

Something tells me the city may go with a park but still throw a great deal of mixed use housing/private office/state office/ & mental health campus/and enlarge the state farmers market.

After all. What city worth it's weight is gonna let that much land go to use, and not get paid at the same time. The "Nimby's" have held the city back far to long. We have a long way to go to catch up to where we should be, but finally the city is taking some giant steps in the right direction.

"Don't be afraid to dream; And while you're at it, dream big."

[orulz]

. . . I have always kept one thing in mind, and that is>>> The city wants money. . . .  when it comes down to it, the city of Raleigh is going to pick the option, or combination of options which is gonna put some money back in their pockets.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is it really the city of Raleigh that would get any revenue generated from redeveloping Dix? I thought that the state, as the property owner, was going to make the decision about what to doo. I was also under the impression that this is why the land must be used to benefit the state of NC rather than just the city of Raleigh. Or am I wrong, and the property will revert to the city of Raleigh once the state leaves in 2007?

[Tayfromcarolina]

Perhaps your right about the State owning it, but still. They want money too. Either way somebody's out to get money. The public's opinion(s) are a small piece out of this pie.

[romec]

The State would make money in the sale of the property, and the city would make money from the property taxes of the possible high land values if the property is developed.

[ericurbanite]

N and O dorthea dix

Looks like there will be a meeting tommorow night (Tuesday) to present the two plans for the dorthea dix site. So hopefully someone from the forum can go and see what the presentations look like. I have a feeling that the proposals could have been alot better than this, and do not take advantage of the all the possible development that could take place.

[avery]

They mention museums as something people would like to see. I don't necessarily agree with this. I am all for cultural/educational advancement, but why do we need to spend additional money on another museum. Raleigh already has some great museum facilities that can either be improved or expanded. The NC Museum of Art has plenty of room to grow. With the limited money available at the state level, I would rather see money appropriated to schools than another museum.

Dix is a great piece of property and I hope they do not overdevelop it too quickly. I hope the plans have been thought through carefully before they commit.

[orulz]

I'd like to propose that we get a delegation of people from Urban Planet together for this meeting. The last meeting felt dominated by nimbys and 100% preservationists; we need to prove that there are a large number of people who are interested in seeing mixed-use development on the Dix property. It seemed to me that many people at the last meeting lacked a basic comprehension of how public interests can be served by well-designed private development. I'm hoping that this time they'll actually have some attractive, conceptual renderings for the Mixed-Use plan. Maybe some people will be swayed if they get an idea of what it will look like.

I don't like the idea of preserving and reusing existing buildings. The main hospital started out as a number of different buildings, and was linked together with dozens wings through numerous seperate construction projects over the decades. It's ugly, and from what people tell me it has a haphazard and confusing interior layout and is laced with asbestos. I'm sure that some of the buildings on the main campus could be preserved, but most of them should be torn down, and the area along Lake Wheeler Rd should be turned into an urban corridor of multi-story, mixed-use structures.

As for the area to the west of the RR tracks, I agree with the CAMPO thoroughfare plan that there should be a connector street through the property, but I do think that a fairly large contiguous chunk should be preserved as low-intensity recreational space.

Avery, You're right about developing it too quickly. It's looking to me like the only options will be a homogenous office park, or a massive "open space" that's too disorganized and undeveloped to even call a park. Neither of those is a desirable outcome.

[avery]

I sometimes worry about the mentality of both sides of this issue. Leaving the property in its original state and leaving existing buildings is not good use of this land in my opinion. There is a real opportunity for Raleigh here. On the flip side, developing it too quickly benefits only the developer chosen to manage the project. Throwing up office buildings quickly is a poor idea in my opinion too.

They need a third option which falls in the middle of these two. A mixed use development with some open space preservation, I think is most appropriate. Big box retailers and half-rented office parks really bother me.

If Raleigh is committed to revitalizing downtown, they need to integrate this into thier plans due to its proximity. The location is perfect for townhomes, a few restaurants (with a good view), small retailers and maybe a hotel. NC State, the Farmer's Market, and the new convention center is less than 3 miles away in any direction. Housing is key for drawing more business into downtown and the Centinnial Campus.

Raleigh is growing and people already living here need to accept it. Poor planning and sprawl will cause major problems as the Triangle continues to grow. Infill is very important to reducing dilapidation and the cancerous spread of a city. The key should be making Raleigh more desireable when approaching any "development". Accept growth and plan smart!

[Tayfromcarolina]

Avery. Raleigh is growing and people already living here need to accept it. Poor planning and sprawl will cause major problems as the Triangle continues to grow. Infill is very important to reducing dilapidation and the cancerous spread of a city. The key should be making Raleigh more desireable when approaching any "development". Accept growth and plan smart!

Very well put. Those nimby's from the last meeting got on my nerves to say the least. Raleigh is a fast growing city on the verge of something exceptionally great. People really do need to realize this. Townhomes, integrated housing, resturants and a hotel or two really would work for this area. I also liked the idea of the world class botanical garden or even an NC aquarium. (something that would create a draw). As I see it Raleigh has enough greenways and trails as it is, dare I say more than citys twice the size even.

I hope they don't pick that city park plan. Come what may that land needs to be used to it's fullest potential. I hope the city dosen't make a bad call on this one. They've made some good decisions as of late with the conv. center & fayetteville st. mall projects.

[Justin6882]

I'd like to propose that we get a delegation of people from Urban Planet together for this meeting. The last meeting felt dominated by nimbys and 100% preservationists; we need to prove that there are a large number of people who are interested in seeing mixed-use development on the Dix property.

Looks like I'll be there. Post in this thread if you plan on going.

[catdaddy]

Thats alot of land there preserving. Why soo much?

[JunktionFET]

How long is the thing supposed to run? I'd like to make it, but the earliest I could arrive would be between 7:30-8:00, thanks to work. How will UrbanPlanet-ers be able to identify eachother?

[Justin6882]

I'll probably be there with Raleigh-NC...and I'm not sure what I'll be wearing. However, if someone wants to make some stickers with the NO symbol and NIMBY in the middle of it, I'd wear it That'd be the perfect way to tell!

[JunktionFET]

I'll probably be there with Raleigh-NC...and I'm not sure what I'll be wearing.  However, if someone wants to make some stickers with the NO symbol and NIMBY in the middle of it, I'd wear it   That'd be the perfect way to tell!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How long will the thing last? Would it be worth me coming out there between 7:30-8? Raleigh-NC knows what I look like as I have met with him a number of times. I'll give him a call tomorrow to see if maybe we can have a short after party. hehe