Dorothea Dix Property

[reed]

Here we go again with another biased poll (referring to TTA's poll in April). The most important line in the story is:

"The poll was done by Raleigh-based Public Policy Polling for the Friends of Dorothea Dix Park, a nonprofit group that supports a large park."

In other words, the poll is useless.

Agreed.

Plus, it's just a PC thing to say.... "Yes, I'm for open space."

It's too great an opportunity to just fence the place in and "preserve" it.

[Damien]

That poll is so stupid. They only polled less than 700 people, WTF? If a "reputable" source of media cant come up with better issues to write on than a 700 person poll done by a company affiliated with the group that is lobbying to preserve the park, then we are in serious trouble in Raleigh when it comes to the newspaper. It really doesnt surprise me though. I think the N&O must just hire anyone that comes in claiming to be a writer. To be quite honest, I'd rather read an article about what Meeker had for breakfast, and how his morning jog went.

[bullcity76]

Poll says Wake voters want all of Dix's 315 acres to be a park.

There is a enough space to satisfy everybody's agendas and have an even better development. You can have open space/trails, historical renovation, AND urban density. These three components would make the development even more valuable and give it sense of place.

[plus2]

Damien,

A 600-700 person poll is certainly valid. That size would also be a valid national poll as well. 700 person polls have a margin of error of around +/- 4%.

[Damien]

^ Allow me to rephrase. A poll of 700 people done by a group associated with Friends of Dix doesn't seem very credible to me.

[avery]

^ Allow me to rephrase. A poll of 700 people done by a group associated with Friends of Dix doesn't seem very credible to me.

Agreed. I would be curious to see the phrasing of the questions and where the poll was conducted. If they asked 700 random people, then the poll could potentially have merit. If not, it could be like asking 100% democrats their opinion of George Bush. Even then, the questions could have been phrased in a manner to get the answers the group wanted. I would be much happier if WRAL conducted a poll on their website of called 700 people randomly throughout Raleigh.

[plus2]

A little googling will get you a long ways...

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP..._Dix_053106.pdf

[DanRNC]

I would say the questions are not leading and the demographic breakdown seems pretty consistent with their responses. I personally favor the all park proposal and/or Meeker's plan. I think the original consultant's plan was a dud-more generic "mixed-use" garbage.

[avery]

I would say the questions are not leading and the demographic breakdown seems pretty consistent with their responses. I personally favor the all park proposal and/or Meeker's plan. I think the original consultant's plan was a dud-more generic "mixed-use" garbage.

The polling questions do not seem leading after reading them. However, the demographic breakdown is somewhat misleading. They do not tell you the zip codes/areas that these respondents were from. If they are all from the same area then it would be expected that the answers would be skewed. If it is truely from 700+ plus respondents from various, random areas, then this would be a much better poll.

[avery]

I went to the Farmer's Market yesterday afternoon and drove by the Dix land. I can't help but think, what potential! This piece of land is awesome. It is next door to NC State, in the shadows of downtown and very close access to I-40. I like the idea of a park element, but it would be a tragedy if none of this land was developed for other uses.

With all of the concern on urbanity and creating a more densely populated region, how can we allow huge chuncks of land like this to go completely undeveloped? Taking even half of the land and developing it seems like a good comprimise. I do not think that these "Save the Dix" people are so concerned with a reduction in park size as they are more people and more traffic. I truely doubt that the need for a large park is as great of a concern as the aforementioned. In my opinion, the entire use of the land as a needed park is a deflection to some of their truer NIMBY attitudes and self-centered motivations.

Passing on any development leads to negative tax dollars for this property. The sale of the land to the city/county will cost millions, in addition to the demolition and upkeep for the property. I think the city/county should be able to recoup a reasonable amount on the investment and allow some tax revenues to work for a financially strapped city/county.

I wonder how many people were employed at Dix? How come these same outspoken individuals were not opposed to the hospital, but they would be opposed to any similar structures in size and employment?

[orulz]

I really do think that most of Dix should be a park.

But not all. I want to see only as much of Dix developed as needs to be in order to integrate it with the rest of the city. I don't want this segregated, fenced-off campus turned into a segregated, fenced-off park. What does get developed should be mixed-use, on a grid, and dense... but it should be done with a limited footprint, exclusively between where the existing hospital is and the edge of the property on Lake Wheeler.

Oh, and the idea that was thrown around of completly removing vehicular connections through the Dix park? Forget it! We're not trying to replicate Umstead a half-mile from downtown here.

[avery]

My thoughts exactly. We already have Umstead for people to enjoy as well as many other smaller parks throughout the city. Even Pullen park is not far from this location.

[dmccall]

I went to the Farmer's Market yesterday afternoon and drove by the Dix land. I can't help but think, what potential! This piece of land is awesome. It is next door to NC State, in the shadows of downtown and very close access to I-40. I like the idea of a park element, but it would be a tragedy if none of this land was developed for other uses.

I did the same thing and reached the same conclusion!

[Cary NC]

I think with the acres that are left, I would love to see a city zoo put on 90 acres of it. It is a short drive from all the museums in downtown and the Vet school at NCSU could be incorporated into providing labor/training for the zoo. I think if Wake County and all the cities around kicked in a little money then the funding certainly could be started plus the corporate citizenship would make this feasible. I like the NC Zoo but it is too big and too much walking in the summer. I currently live in Denver CO and they have a 90 acre zoo that is packed with people. Over 1.5 million people a year come to the zoo making it one of the most popular places to visit in town and one of the most popular zoos in America. Just another destination for vistors when they come to Raleigh.

Edited June 10, 2006 by Cary NC

[RALBOI]

I think with the acres that are left, I would love to see a city zoo put on 90 acres of it. It is a short drive from all the museums in downtown and the Vet school at NCSU could be incorporated into providing labor/training for the zoo. I think if Wake County and all the cities around kicked in a little money then the funding certainly could be started plus the corporate citizenship would make this feasible. I like the NC Zoo but it is too big and too much walking in the summer. I currently live in Denver CO and they have a 90 acre zoo that is packed with people. Over 1.5 million people a year come to the zoo making it one of the most popular places to visit in town and one of the most popular zoos in America. Just another destination for vistors when they come to Raleigh.

That is and awsome idea,it would be great if it could be intergraded with the NCSU Vet school .

[avery]

I think a zoo would be a great idea. Again, I don't think the state would throw any money into a project for fear of losing Asheboro visitors. I really do think that this state is big enough to handle a second zoo. It would be nice if they could incorporate it somehow with the Museum of Natural Sciences downtown and create more of a learning environment for school children.

[PAVANC]

Maymont Park in Richmond is a great example of a small zoo/park.

http://www.maymont.org/

[ChiefJoJo]

I really do think that most of Dix should be a park.

But not all. I want to see only as much of Dix developed as needs to be in order to integrate it with the rest of the city. I don't want this segregated, fenced-off campus turned into a segregated, fenced-off park. What does get developed should be mixed-use, on a grid, and dense... but it should be done with a limited footprint, exclusively between where the existing hospital is and the edge of the property on Lake Wheeler.

Oh, and the idea that was thrown around of completly removing vehicular connections through the Dix park? Forget it! We're not trying to replicate Umstead a half-mile from downtown here.

I agree with this sentiment. If there are 315 acres, I can see developing the areas that have buildings on them now (condos, some retail, but no office as that should be DT!), preserving anything that is historically significant, and then leaving the remainder for active park uses and open space. I imagine that would leave 200 or so acres open.

One if the arguments that the park supporters have is that much of the orginal Dix land (~2000 acres) has been given away over the years to the Farmers Market and NCSU, so we should preserve the land that's left. That's a strong argument, but we need to look at the best usage of what is left to make it a successful park, so ppl will actually be able to access it and use it. Some development shold take place in order to make this a connected, usable public space.

[willrusso]

I hate parks. We have too many of them to begin with. If you want open space, move to the country and out of Downtown Raleigh. Pullen park is just down the road anyways. I say build the whole plot up into something truly urban. Also, that junk yard and those housing projects at the end of Lake Wheeler need to be deleted. They built some brand new apartments right there, and they've been completed for quite some time. However, the parking lot is mostly empty. I guess nobody wants to live nestled between a housing project and a junk yard. But man, some of those units must have some awesome skyline views.

Edited June 12, 2006 by willrusso

[avery]

I hate parks. We have too many of them to begin with. If you want open space, move to the country and out of Downtown Raleigh. Pullen park is just down the road anyways. I say build the whole plot up into something truly urban. Also, that junk yard and those housing projects at the end of Lake Wheeler need to be deleted. They built some brand new apartments right there, and they've been completed for quite some time. However, the parking lot is mostly empty. I guess nobody wants to live nestled between a housing project and a junk yard. But man, some of those units must have some awesome skyline views.

Driving to the Farmer's Market the other day, I noticed those apartments too. I thought the same thing. They look great, good location...bad surroundings.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I hate parks. We have too many of them to begin with. If you want open space, move to the country and out of Downtown Raleigh. Pullen park is just down the road anyways. I say build the whole plot up into something truly urban. Also, that junk yard and those housing projects at the end of Lake Wheeler need to be deleted. They built some brand new apartments right there, and they've been completed for quite some time. However, the parking lot is mostly empty. I guess nobody wants to live nestled between a housing project and a junk yard. But man, some of those units must have some awesome skyline views.

I have to say that you are the first person that I have ever heard of, from, etc. that has stated, "I hate parks." And even though you have the right to your opinion, let me say this... You must also hate all European cities as well? God knows they have a lot of parks in there urban areas.

[orulz]

Agreed. If most of this land isn't preserved as a park, botanical gardens, zoo, or some other form of public open space, we'll regret it for generations.

The problem right now is that in spite of its proximity to downtown, Dix is very isolated from the rest of the city - due to topography, surrounding uses, and highway infrastructure. Even the folks who want this to be 100% parkland recognize the parcel's isolation. While some 100% park advocates see this as a virtue, others say that everything else around the park (Caraleigh neighborhood, Western Blvd, Lake Wheeler Rd, etc) will naturally change and densify to integrate the park into the city. Realistically, I don't see that happening, certainly not in our lifetimes. So, instead, I think dense private development, that properly addresses the public realm (read URBAN - not new urban, not suburban) on a limited part of the Dix property, including some historic preservation where feasible, while preserving the vast majority of the parcel as open space, is the best solution to the dilemma.

[ncwebguy]

Looking at the hybrid google map of the ara they could make a "Western Park" along Western Blvd. from South Saunders to the west side of Hunt, tying in with Pullen Park, and bounded to the south by Umstead Dr., saving and/or moving historically signifcant buildings. The greenway and stream run though here, but it invisible from Western because it is below grade.

This could leave a neat "village" along Lake Wheeler that is pretty close to downtown -- easily bikable and "walkable" in an urban sense. Maybe State could move the Arboretum to some of the land bordering Centennial Campus? This could be a teaching/learning living lab that would double as a botanical garden.

The land further back by the Farmer's Market would not really be a "city zoo" since it is closer to 40 than

downtown, but it could be a good gateway. The land near Lake Wheeler road could be mixed use to increase the number of *residents* close to downtown and still have plenty of park space. The land along Maywood could extend the village east.

The housing project between South and Western has seen better days, but is years away from being redevloped. Gateway Park is a mix of affordable housing and "market rate" even though they have income restrictions. They seem to do little to advertise the available market rate units. I don't know what percentage of the units are occupied, but they do seem to be quite empty every time I go by.

There is also the open field east of McDowell/Dawson via tunneled section of the greenway that isn't going anywhere as it is used by Washington School. Walnut Terrace, the housing project east of here and west of Wilmington Street, will potentially be redeveloped with HUD money, a la Halifax/Capitol Park and Chavis Heights.

In addition to Pullen, Chavis park is close to downtown as well. That, plus Nash and Moore Squares, and the empty block west of the new CC is a decent amount of open space.

[CliffyB]

When I was at Artsplosure one of those guys was there handing out propaganda to "save the park." Save it from WHAT? That's a ton of prime space to make it ALL a park. I think the mixed use plan looks fantastic.

What kind of commercial space would be in there? We talking indy businesses or Jamba Juice?

[Cary NC]

I think the zoo at 90 acres, as I mentioned on page 3, a botanical garden on 25 acres, and then incorporate some living quarters there with some nice high end restuarants, maybe a family restaurant as well. Raleigh has to become more of a destination stop, when people have options, that means more money is spent at these options. Our museums are free which is great and unusual. A park would be nice, but a park that generates revenue would be even better use of that land that is so rare now in Wake County. I vote CITY ZOO/BOTANICAL GARDEN ( like balboa park in San Diego) and Retail/Residental Area. Leave the rest alone for now. You do not have to develop all 315 acres right now, do you. More great ideas will come as time passes.

Check out some links

Denver Zoo (90 acres) 1.6M vistors annually

http://www.denverzoo.org/default.asp

San Diego Zoo ( 100 acres) 4000 animals, $137 M in gate revenue

http://www.sandiegozoo.org/zoo/index.html

Balboa Park ( 1200 acres) but has 15 museums on it but a smaller concept would be just applicable

http://www.balboapark.org/in-the-park/

I am native to Raleigh but since turning 18 have lived in Sacramento, Seattle, Salt Lake City, and Denver. Raleigh is where my heart is though.

Seattle has a great downtown destination called the Science Center which the famed Space Needle is part of. You go into the Science Center and it screams Corporate giving/ support with rooms, exhibits, areas all with a Corporate sponsor. ( So and so exhibit brought to by Costco or the Boeing IMAX theater) We have great corporations in the Triangle that would love to sponsor something great. As they say "Build it and they will come."

Edited June 13, 2006 by Cary NC