Dorothea Dix Property

[ChiefJoJo]

I really don't think we need a zoo. The reason we have a NC Zoo in Asheboro is that it's centrally located in the state, and there is plenty of land for all the animals, so they aren't caged up. What kind of zoo would 90 acres give us? A bunch of caged lions and monkees? No way. I'm really in alignment with what orulz is saying. Build some urban residential and retail in the center near the existing buildings (keep commercial in DT core), save the historically significant bldgs, preserve the grove as open space with trails, connect the streets and trails, have some active uses with ball fields, and maybe have a botanical garden or some other natural area near Cent campus. Lake Wheeler Rd definitely needs to be widened to 4 lanes with a median and bike lanes/sidewalks, so it provides a nice connection (bike/ped/auto) with DT and I-40. South Sounders, South St and perhaps Cabarrus could be improved for the connection to work.

Edited June 13, 2006 by ChiefJoJo

[ncwebguy]

The "save the park" and "friends of Dix park" phrases are wrong. There is no *existing park* to save, just some well preserved areas of Dorthea Dix hospital. Period. Several of the "park advocates" don't live anywhere near the park and don't have the best intentions of the neighborhood or city in mind, just their own agenda. With "friends" like these, who needs enemies?

The "make it all a park" scenario does not address what to do with the existing structures on site. Do they think they can sow some seeds and call it a botanical garden? Is an all-volunteer staff going to run the place? Why don't they volunteer to plant in existing parks? Because that's someone else's job. Where is everyone going to park? On the side of Lake Wheeler under the "no parking any time" signs? Pullen Park (NC State on weekends)?

Bill Padgett has "saved" Hillsborough Street, and now wants to do the same for the Dix property.

The "friends" used to show pictures of 20+ stroy tall structures on park property, Boyland Heights and Lake Wheeler by 2030 if the "all park" option is not chosen.

I may be imagining this, but they used to keep animals either at Pullen Park or somewhere else in Raleigh at some point, but was later found to be inhumane. With the Durham Museum of Life and Sciences adding more animals, do we need to have two triangle zoos? The petting zoo in wake forest was shut down due to lack of interest a year or so ago as well.

[orulz]

In case you haven't noticed, the folks at Dix Park have put up a 'Concept Map' for the year 2030. I'll post an image here when I get a chance, but the map can be found on the last page of this PDF.

Seems that 24 years from now, they want absolutely nothing to be different - except for demolition of the non-historic buildings. This '2030 map' wants a park so completely passive that the single gazebo on Dix land (the one near Boylan that's already there!) is treated as a focal point. The only new amenity would be a pedestrian bridge into Pullen Park. Then we have the nebulous "great lawn" off in a corner where it will be accessible only by automobile, and used by no more people than it is today. Once again, we're talking 24 years from now!!

So, to the folks at Dix Park. I can certainly respect the notion that you want Dix to be 100% park, even if I don't 100% agree.

But for crying out loud, don't be so afraid to do anything with the park land that we end up with something inaccessible, isolated, underused, and pointless. If it's going to be a park, turn it into an urban park, surrounded by development, with lots of paths, activities, gardens, fountains, and even *gasp* a few roads through the middle, to bring accessibility and activity. In addition, reconfigure the surroundings for better street connectivity, pedestrian friendliness, and density.

[dmccall]

That's a terrible plan. Parks are a total waste unless people live near them. The current Dix property has about 20 houses on its west side, none on its northwest side, a public housing project to the northwest, a handful of houses to the east, and none to the south. Within a 1/4 mile of the site there are very few dwellings, so it will go unused. Better off to develop some of it and actually make it usable. Otherwise, they are just encouraging sprawl, because the people that would live there have to live SOMEWHERE - they'll just flight outward.

[ChiefJoJo]

Panel to address Dix preservation...

Last year, the state and the city hired Charlotte-based LandDesign to recommend how the site could be developed. The new study will instead look at how to pay for historic preservation and parks on the campus.

The committee -- made up of state legislators, Raleigh Mayor Charles Meeker and private citizens -- will meet from 1 to 3 p.m. in Room 1027/1128 at the legislature.

[Transplant]

Maybe a public golf course could go here. This would address a couple of things:

1. Open space is achieved by almost all grass and trees.

2. Mental health is addressed by the golfers relaxing while there.

3. The course could bring in some animals to qualify it as a zoo.

4. Greens fees would bring in some cash.

Of course, I'm just kidding. This area should be developed like many of you have said: High residentail around a open park. If no one is around the park to use it, it will look like a open field in the middle of a city.

[RaleighRob]

I really don't think we need a zoo. The reason we have a NC Zoo in Asheboro is that it's centrally located in the state, and there is plenty of land for all the animals, so they aren't caged up. What kind of zoo would 90 acres give us? A bunch of caged lions and monkees? No way.

I haven't followed this thread much yet, and just did and I was kinda surprised anyone brought up the idea of a zoo. JoJo is right...it's not a good idea.

The NC state Zoo is the biggest and (probably) the best in the nation and even they have a hard time getting enough visitors to pay its way. It still relies heavily on money from sponsors and the state. Running a zoo is an expensive venture! Exotic animals aren't cheap.

Now...a wildlife preserve (if there's any wildlife left over there) would be a more doable venture.

[ChiefJoJo]

A golf course would take a lot of that land so I'm pretty sure it's not what the park folks had in mind. Also NCSU is planning a golf course about 1 mile southwest of Dix at Centennial Campus.

If you support a park for Dix then this committee is good news, although it likely means a delay in the decision-making process that was already as slow as molasses.

[bone450]

I always thought Raleigh could lobby for a pro baseball team and have the stadium built on the old Dix land. I think that would bring a load of buisness downtown. What do you all think?

[DanRNC]

No way will the Triangle get baseball. Its pretty much saturated sportswise until the population gets up to around 2-3 million in the area.

[sax184]

I always thought Raleigh could lobby for a pro baseball team and have the stadium built on the old Dix land. I think that would bring a load of buisness downtown. What do you all think?

Stadiums don't bring business downtown. Do a google search and you'll find the studies. Other than that, this is Raleigh, you know- "cheaptown." They're not going to build a stadium. With no stadium, there's no team.

[ncwebguy]

This thread discussed the idea of a stadium or arena in DT Raleigh.

Can the area support the college teams, the Hurricanes, and MLB? Not likely now; maybe 10 years out, if current population trends contiue. The Durham Bulls are AAA, one step below the majors, and rarely sell out. Ticket prices are resasonable. There was talk of the Bulls moving to RTP and creating a new central core, but the DBAP was built instead. MLB teams play a *lot* of home games, with several weekday games. It would take a large fan base to support a team. The Triad tried to build a stadium for the Minn. Twins, but it failed at the voting booth. The "NC Zoo" theory would suggest people would drive from Charlotte and the Triangle, but that is overly optimistic thinking.

Soccer is well covered via SAS Soccer Park, with the Railbirds playing there in 2007.

Stadiums bring *people* downtown (look at Sunday tailgate parties in Charlotte's CBD before Panthers games vs. before the team was there) but that rarely converts to enough *business* to justify them (there are only 10-12 football games a year, including preseason and playoffs). What does Bank of America stadium contribute to the city's fabric the other 340+ days?

Once the CC is close to paying for itself with increased hotel, prepared meals, rental car, and other taxes, then we can work on the next project.

The Dix property has better access to I-40 than downtown proper, however. I hope the "all park" study exposes the potential park's underutilization due to low density around it and limited on-site parking.

It would never happen, but what if there was a CAT supported "park and ride" lot built off Lake Wheeler road for people who can't afford to park downtown during the 9-5 M-F, and for park goers on the weekends?

[DanRNC]

I am a sports fan (less so lately) but I do not care about sports arenas being built in downtown areas. Like I have said before they are more of a drain than an asset and do little to give an area personality. A zoo most likely will never be built.

[DanRNC]

It looks like this property is gaining some attention outside of NC. Luckily, its looks as if LandDesign is out as the major consultant which is a good thing.

Story

[krazeeboi]

I am a sports fan (less so lately) but I do not care about sports arenas being built in downtown areas. Like I have said before they are more of a drain than an asset and do little to give an area personality.

Ever heard of the Arena District in Columbus, OH?

[ChiefJoJo]

Well LandDesign was charged by the GA with studying a mixed use plan, not a park. The Urban Land Institute appears to have a broader scope, looking at open space and also how to potentially pay for it and implement a plan, which is key to achieving it.

[DanRNC]

Ever heard of the Arena District in Columbus, OH?

Nope. What's your point?

[raleightransplant]

The Arena District is a chain-ish area of bars, clubs, theatre, etc. It opened in a formerly dead area of town (nortwest edge of DT), and has brought a considerable amount of life to that area. I think these areas can become "dead spots" when there aren't events going on, but it's rather impressive nonetheless. There is plenty of activity there more times than not. I once lived in Columbus, but wasn't around when this area came to fruition around 2000.

http://www.arena-district.com/

[krazeeboi]

^And all of that surrounds Nationwide Arena--hence the name "Arena District."

[urbanaturalist]

Dorothea Dix would make great parkland. Close down Central Prison turn that land into residential, commercial area. Dorothea would be a great place to have fireworks displays and other events. Is there a park like that in Raleigh? thats downtown at that?

[RaleighRick]

Dorothea Dix would make great parkland. Close down Central Prison turn that land into residential, commercial area. Dorothea would be a great place to have fireworks displays and other events. Is there a park like that in Raleigh? thats downtown at that?

The only real city park we have in/near downtown is Pullen Park. It's a nice urban park just to the northwest of Dorothea Dix. There is a lake where you can take paddle boat rides, picnic, swim at the aquatics center, ride numerous kiddie rides, a train and a vintage carrousel, ball fields and tennis courts, and an arts center for theater/plays. This park is also adjacent to NC State University. Don't know if this is the kind of park you were asking about, but it is what we have. I think one of the Dix plans had a connector to Pullen Park.

[ncwebguy]

What makes a park a "real city park"? A swimming pool? Ballfields? Playground? Merry-Go-Round? Tennis courts? Community Center?

If these are your qualifications, how does Chavis Park not qualify? It is closer to downtown than Pullen is, and even has public art. Or does being on the "wrong" side of downtown automatically disqualify it?

The "Friends of Dix" are not friends of parks, just friends of anti-development and Boylan Heights that want nothing across Western Blvd. Sunday's N&O had a good Q&A with Richard Moe, president of the private, nonprofit National Trust for Historic Preservation.

There's another -- and better -- option: preserve and re-use the historic structures. The place is a National Historic Landmark, after all. Add sensitively designed new buildings where appropriate. And provide for public utilization of the open space. It has been done at The Presidio in San Francisco, with the result that a former military base with enormous historic significance is now a major asset to the whole city.

This is the plan a lot of people on here support, and it is good to see this view shared with someone that has seen his fair share of similar projects.

[dmccall]

After looking into the Friends of Dix, I've found that the group is much better grounded and sensible than I initially thought. They have some incredibly heavy hitters onboard, many who are staunch conservatives, backing a plan to develop around the edges and preserve the buildingsl; at least that's what I'm getting from them. Here's a link to their site (the video is well done):

http://www.friendsofdix.org/

[ChiefJoJo]

preserve and re-use the historic structures. The place is a National Historic Landmark, after all. Add sensitively designed new buildings where appropriate. And provide for public utilization of the open space.

This is the most sensible idea IMO. There are at least a few nationally significant buildings on the campus and those could be rehabilitated (Empire?) and reused for the state DHHS offices and some condos. I believe residential and token retail uses on the campus is crucial to create a small mixed use community of folks who would use the park. The remainder should be for active and natural recreational uses. This approach could generate at least some revenue for the state in order to get the General Assembly to support the idea.

Also:

• develop only the areas that currently have structures--rehab historically significant bldgs and build new midrise mixed use (retail, residential, office) structures where nonsignificant bldgs are torn down
  
• widen Lake Wheeler to 4 lanes with bike lanes and sidewalks, and connect to DT via transit and ped connections
  
• leave the remainder of the campus for parkland--the existing ballfields for active uses and the "grove" and other areas for natural recreation, walking trails, etc
  

[DanRNC]

There are meeting open to the public regarding ULI.

N&O Story