Greenville SC, Knoxville showdown

[goodbye]

Greenville:

• BMW - North American Headquarters

• Michelen North America - Headquarters

• Hitachi

• Cryovac Sealed Air - Global Headquarters: Maker of bubble-wrap for packaging

• Flour Corporation - Global Headquarters

• Bi-Lo - Headquarters

• Royal Ahold - North American Data Communications Headquarters

• Rockwell Automation - Global Headquarters

• International Center for Automotive Research (ICAR) - Multiple international corporations and research facilities coming, incl. Microsoft, IBM, BMW, SAE, etc.

• IBM - employs over 900 in Greenville today, but more jobs coming at ICAR

• Hubble Lighting - Global Headquarters

• Dunlop - Design, research, and manufacturing facility

• General Electric Gas Turbines - Massive plant distributing turbines globally

• Bowater - Headquaters: One of the largest paper companies in the World

• Ryan's Family Steakhouses - Corporate Headquarters

• IMI Resort Management - Headquarters

• Lockheed Martin - Contracts with military and government, incl. work on Air Force One

• 3M Company - Large adhesives plant at Donaldson Industrial Air Center

• Charter Communications - Headquarters

• Liberty Corp. - Headquarters: May soon be bought by RAYCOM

These are only a few that I could think of in the minute it took to write. Remember that Greenville and the Upstate has the highest per capita of international investment in the entire World, plus the highest per capita of engineers in the World. This just helps to balance the view.

Edit: I've added a few more that I couldn't remember. There are many more that I've left out, and new announcements are coming in regulary, but this should give a better idea of Greenville's importance.

[motonenterprises]

Good post skyliner! You beat me to the punch. Greenville's headquarters seem to be larger foreign companies. Some know so little about our great metro area.

[krazeeboi]

Greenville is nowhere near as important and is a more "blue collar" society!

"Nowhere near as important" in what regard? Of course the city has minimal impact on Tennessee, but I'm quite confident that Greenville has more of an impact on SC than Knoxville does on TN. Because Greenville is the central city of one of three similarly-sized major metropolitan areas in SC, it doesn't get overshadowed here like Nashville and Memphis overshadow Knoxville.

Do you have any statistics to back up your "blue collar" comment?

Also Knoxville is racially tolerant because it tends to be populated with more educated and enlightened people (after all we do have some higher education establishments here too)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While Knoxville seems to be an educated place, I don't think it's "more educated and enlightened" than Greenville. Despite popular opinion, Bob Jones University is not the end-all be-all of educational institutions in the area. There's also Furman University (ranked 41st among top liberal arts colleges in the nation in U.S. News & World Report 2006 rankings) and in close proximity is nationally-recognized Clemson University (ranked 78th among the top American colleges and universities in the same report--eight spots above Tennessee). At any rate, when it comes to Knoxville being "more educated," we'll let the statistics tell the story.

Greenville

Bachelor's degree or higher, pct of persons age 25+, 2000: 34.2%

Greenville County

Bachelor's degree or higher, pct of persons age 25+, 2000: 26.2%

Knoxville

Bachelor's degree or higher, pct of persons age 25+, 2000: 24.6%

Knox County:

Bachelor's degree or higher, pct of persons age 25+, 2000: 29.0%

So where's the big disparity in this regard?

All of this isn't to say that Knoxville doesn't have its advantages, because clearly it does. But I think it's quite a stretch to say that Greenville cannot compete, is in "a different league," or is "nowhere near as important." Let's keep our hometown pride grounded in reality.

[motonenterprises]

That was good!

[nashvol85]

Damn y'all got some homers down there in Greenville. I've been down there several times (admittedly not in the last 5-6 years) because my dad does a lot of business in the Greenville-Spartanburg area.

In my honest opinion, you can't compare Greenville to any city in it's size category in the south. There are a lot of people in that region, but it is not concentrated like Knoxville.

Here's an example.

County - population - land area - density

Knox County - 392,995 - 508 - 774 sq/m

Greenville County - 395,357 - 790 - 500 sq/mi

That's a pretty big difference. Now I know that there areas around Greenville with similar density, but it points to me that that region is more of a lose connection of residential and commercial developement covering a very large region. Knoxville is not known for being dense outside of town, but it has a decently dense core, and some very dense neighborhoods near downtown, especially near UT (Fort Sanders). Speaking of UT, Greenville itself (we're comparing the two cities, right?) doesn't have anything to compare with a 27,000 student nationally recognized research campus deeply rooted in the city like Knoxville does. When you think of most major cities in the south, a decent university usually comes to mind, even in the smaller cities. When I think of Greenville, nothing comes to mind.

[krazeeboi]

I believe more of a tightly-defined core is a valid distinction; however, given all of the residential developments proposed and underway in Greenville, that will be improving very soon.

When you think of most major cities in the south, a decent university usually comes to mind, even in the smaller cities.

I can think of two really good exceptions here: Charlotte and Jacksonville, both significantly larger than Greenville. That's not to say that the cities don't have "decent" universities, but I don't think that any that they do have are quite as well known as the University of Tennessee, which is the state's flagship university.

[nashvol85]

I believe more of a tightly-defined core is a valid distinction; however, given all of the residential developments proposed and underway in Greenville, that will be improving very soon.

I can think of two really good exceptions here: Charlotte and Jacksonville, both significantly larger than Greenville. That's not to say that the cities don't have "decent" universities, but I don't think that any that they do have are quite as well known as the University of Tennessee, which is the state's flagship university.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True, and that's a good point...which is one of the reasons why Charlotte and Jacksonville are never mentioned in the same breath as Atlanta...disregarding size alone.

[krazeeboi]

True, and that's a good point...which is one of the reasons why Charlotte and Jacksonville are never mentioned in the same breath as Atlanta...disregarding size alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You think so? Although I realize the positive contributions that large universities make to a city's downtown area, I never really thought about it in this way. Birmingham is rarely ever mentioned in the same breath as Atlanta (aside from proximity)--and Birmingham has a notable research university downtown, UAB. And Birmingham is (roughly) in the same league as Charlotte and Jacksonville.

[motonenterprises]

Damn y'all got some homers down there in Greenville. I've been down there several times (admittedly not in the last 5-6 years) because my dad does a lot of business in the Greenville-Spartanburg area.

In my honest opinion, you can't compare Greenville to any city in it's size category in the south. There are a lot of people in that region, but it is not concentrated like Knoxville.

Here's an example.

County - population - land area - density

Knox County - 392,995 - 508 - 774 sq/m

Greenville County - 395,357 - 790 - 500 sq/mi

That's a pretty big difference. Now I know that there areas around Greenville with similar density, but it points to me that that region is more of a lose connection of residential and commercial developement covering a very large region. Knoxville is not known for being dense outside of town, but it has a decently dense core, and some very dense neighborhoods near downtown, especially near UT (Fort Sanders). Speaking of UT, Greenville itself (we're comparing the two cities, right?) doesn't have anything to compare with a 27,000 student nationally recognized research campus deeply rooted in the city like Knoxville does. When you think of most major cities in the south, a decent university usually comes to mind, even in the smaller cities. When I think of Greenville, nothing comes to mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greenville County's population is 401,174 or so if I remember correctly.

[motonenterprises]

Greenville has proven that it doesn't need a major college in order to succeed. My question is, what would Knoxville be without UT? Can it pull what Greenville has without a major college?

[krazeeboi]

I think Nashvol85's figures were from the 2000 census and not the recent estimates.

That's a keen observation about colleges, motonenterprises. But even though Greenville doesn't have a large university presence downtown, the city still benefits from having a large university, Clemson, in such close proximity--ICAR (International Center for Automotive Research) being a prime example.

[bobliocatt]

I think what stands out the most between these to metro areas is that Knoxville is a decent sized, larger, compact city, with two major interestates running right through the heart of the city. On the other hand, Greenville's metro is more sprawly and spreadout. That's what I took, from my drive through both cities last week.

As far as downtown's go. Knoxville's is clearly larger, has better architecture, a more impressive skyline, located on a river and is within walking distance a mjor university. Greenville's is much smaller and not as compact, but the vibrant scene along Main Street, puts to shame anything downtown Knoxville has a streetlevel.

[timalucas]

Okay, perhaps I was being unfair, I have not spent a huge amount of time in Greenville.

By the way, I missed out Clayton Homes (Headquartered in Knoxville - Not that that's too much to be proud of ) But it is the world largest "Manufactured Home" company!

[MAJIKMAN]

The two cities are in different leagues!! 

Knoxville is home to the corporate HEADQUARTERS of the following LARGE corporations:

TVA (worlds second largest power company)

ALCOA (worlds largest aluminum company)

Scripps TV networks (HGTV, DIY, Food network, Fine Living etc. etc.)

Jewelry Television TV Networks

Regal Entertainment Group (Country's largest movie theater company)

Brunswick Boat Co. (including Searay) - One of the worlds largest boat companies!

Mastercraft Boat Company

Ruby Tuesday Restaurants

Oak Ridge National Lab (One of the worlds most important research facilities)

Seimens Molecular Imaging Headquarters (CTI)

I'm probably missing some out, and there are dozens more companies with satellite offices here!  Greenville is nowhere near as important and is a more "blue collar" society! 

Also Knoxville is racially tolerant because it tends to be populated with more educated and enlightened people (after all we do have some higher education establishments here too)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well from what I've heard TVA was HQed out of Chat-town. Can I be wrong.

[MAJIKMAN]

Never mind I see. I see they have headquarters. Found this on their site. (http://www.tvakids.com/abouttva/contact.htm) Really Impressive

organization.

[krazeeboi]

I think what stands out the most between these to metro areas is that Knoxville is a decent sized, larger, compact city, with two major interestates running right through the heart of the city.  On the other hand, Greenville's metro is more sprawly and spreadout.  That's what I took, from my drive through both cities last week.

As far as downtown's go.  Knoxville's is clearly larger, has better architecture, a more impressive skyline, located on a river and is within walking distance a mjor university.  Greenville's is much smaller and not as compact, but the vibrant scene along Main Street, puts to shame anything downtown Knoxville has a streetlevel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That seems to be a fair comparison for a passer-by.

[MAJIKMAN]

I think what stands out the most between these to metro areas is that Knoxville is a decent sized, larger, compact city, with two major interestates running right through the heart of the city.  On the other hand, Greenville's metro is more sprawly and spreadout.  That's what I took, from my drive through both cities last week.

As far as downtown's go.  Knoxville's is clearly larger, has better architecture, a more impressive skyline, located on a river and is within walking distance a mjor university.  Greenville's is much smaller and not as compact, but the vibrant scene along Main Street, puts to shame anything downtown Knoxville has a streetlevel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But once again, like someone said earlier, geography determines these kinds of developement. Knoxville, Chattanooga and Asheville, grew in the valleys of mountains. Restricting where developement happened. Which made them develope in the same kind of ways. Compact. But Greenville, with is relatively flat

geography, more like Charlotte and Atlanta, made it desirebale to expand outward other than inward. creating the sprawl that we all here (on the I-85 corridor) know and love. And both of downtowns reflect that also. Now Greenville is trying to correct the sprawling nature of our city by encouraging infill. And it is happening at a fairly good clip.

[nashvol85]

I think Nashvol85's figures were from the 2000 census and not the recent estimates.

That's a keen observation about colleges, motonenterprises. But even though Greenville doesn't have a large university presence downtown, the city still benefits from having a large university, Clemson, in such close proximity--ICAR (International Center for Automotive Research) being a prime example.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Those were from the 2003 census estimate. I think Knox county was bigger than Greenville county in 2000...not sure.

[timalucas]

Well from what I've heard TVA was HQed out of Chat-town. Can I be wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, you're wrong! I'll send you a photo pf their two big towers in downtown Knox!

[timalucas]

yeah, you're wrong!  I'll send you a photo pf their two big towers in downtown Knox!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Opps, I see you corrected yourself - that will teach me to read the whole thread!

[gs3]

yeah, you're wrong!  I'll send you a photo pf their two big towers in downtown Knox!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you go to the TVA website, it shows them as having multiple headquarters. It list Knoxville, Nashville, Chattanooga and Muscle Shoals, AL. all as main offices under the corporate headquarters listing.

[nashvol85]

If you go to the TVA website, it shows them as having multiple headquarters.  It list Knoxville, Nashville, Chattanooga and Muscle Shoals, AL. all as main offices under the corporate headquarters listing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Believe me...main operations are in Knoxville. I don't know if Nashville even has a TVA building...

My great aunt worked for TVA for over 40 years...I asked her, she said that the one in Knoxville was the main one.

[bobliocatt]

But once again, like someone said earlier, geography determines these kinds of developement. Knoxville, Chattanooga and Asheville, grew in the valleys of mountains. Restricting where developement happened. Which made them develope in the same kind of ways. Compact. But Greenville, with is relatively flat

geography, more like Charlotte and Atlanta, made it desirebale to expand outward other than inward. creating the sprawl that we all here (on the I-85 corridor) know and love. And both of downtowns reflect that also. Now Greenville is trying to correct the sprawling nature of our city by encouraging infill. And it is happening at a fairly good clip.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It has nothing to do with geography. Knoxville has historically been a much larger city and still is today, although Greenville's metro may be surpassing it. Greenville's pattern of development is similar to that of the Triad in NC, in that there are similar sized sister cities nearby and sprawl is beginning to connect them, thus forming a large metro, without a major centralized core.

Ex. In 1930, a 26sq mile Knoxville had 105,802 residents and was larger than Tampa, Charlotte and Sacramento. Currently the city has around 173,000 people. On the other hand, Greenville's current population is around 56,000 today, while the city's boundaries add up to 26sq miles. Thus the actual city is the exact same size as the actual city of Knoxville was in 1930, but it had double the population and density.

[nashvol85]

It's hard to tell the core density of a lot of Tennessee cities these days because of all the annexation into rural lands (or in Nashville's case) the entire county. Knoxville may have 173,000 people, but it is spread across 93 sq miles, a lot of which is just sprawl land that is sparsly occupied in some areas.

On the other hand, Nashville, for example, has 545,000 residents in the city, which is spread across a massive 475 sq miles...so from the figures, it's hard to tell how dense the actual core is of Nashville. One helping stat is the urban services district (which does NOT include Bellevue, Madison, or Hermitage) has 393,000 of those people in just 169 sq miles, which is double the population density given for the entire city.

I assume Knoxville is the same in this case...if you looked at the old city, it would be about twice as dense as the new boundaries (or maybe more in Knoxville's case).

Point being, it's hard to compare Knoxville, smaller metro with a bigger core, to Greenville, a bigger metro with a smaller core. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CITIES.

[krazeeboi]

Point being, it's hard to compare Knoxville, smaller metro with a bigger core, to Greenville, a bigger metro with a smaller core. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CITIES.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This may be true, but I highly doubt that the person who moved to Greenville from Knoxville preferred Greenville because it is a bigger metro with a smaller, less tightly defined core. Comparisons on the physical level can certainly make for somewhat of an awkward discussion, but economic and urban development, quality of life issues, etc. are issues that are more comparable regardless of which cities are involved. I know that the former can certainly affect the latter (and even vice versa), but for the most part, when it comes to such intangibles, comparisons and contrasts come easier.