Pinnacle Hills Promenade

[vbfl85]

I don't know if light posts will be constructed in the median but I would imagine light posts would go in somewhere (perhaps off to the sides). Though that's a very interesting question, I'll have to look into that.

I would think that the post would be off to the sides because if they widen i540 in the future they would most likely widen inward and fill in the median.

[masons_dad1]

I don't know if light posts will be constructed in the median but I would imagine light posts would go in somewhere (perhaps off to the sides). Though that's a very interesting question, I'll have to look into that.

I would think that the post would be off to the sides because if they widen i540 in the future they would most likely widen inward and fill in the median.

Either way would liven it up like many busy strips of interstate in big cities. I'm just thinking it would be cheaper to put in a center post with T-shaped top that would light both sides. Besides if they fill in the median with new lanes they would probably need to create a concrete barrier that would support the new lightposts.

[mcheiss]

I don't know if light posts will be constructed in the median but I would imagine light posts would go in somewhere (perhaps off to the sides). Though that's a very interesting question, I'll have to look into that.

They also need to get rid off the median and place hopeful additional lanes right there. I think it would make the area feel more metropolitian.

[mcheiss]

Best Buy has been confirmed to NOT be going in Pleasant Crossing. Instead, Best Buy will be built adjacent to the Pinnacle Promenade off Perry Road and 45th Street. This property is a seperate property owned by Pinancle, but in the Promenade development. It's a good location to put it though.

[itk]

Best Buy has been confirmed to NOT be going in Pleasant Crossing. Instead, Best Buy will be built adjacent to the Pinnacle Promenade off Perry Road and 45th Street. This property is a seperate property owned by Pinancle, but in the Promenade development. It's a good location to put it though.

mcheiss-- did you find that out from a newspaper/media outlet or is that 'closed door' info? The reason I ask is that I'm curious how much more of that is happening that isn't put in the business section so to speak. Both developments seem to be competing mostly for the same type of retailers, and I wonder if Pinnacle has a lead over whoever is developing Pleasant Crossing. It's my understanding that they do. If that's the case it wouldn't be surprising if Pleasant Crossing takes a while to really fully develop, I would think.

[Mith242]

mcheiss-- did you find that out from a newspaper/media outlet or is that 'closed door' info? The reason I ask is that I'm curious how much more of that is happening that isn't put in the business section so to speak. Both developments seem to be competing mostly for the same type of retailers, and I wonder if Pinnacle has a lead over whoever is developing Pleasant Crossing. It's my understanding that they do. If that's the case it wouldn't be surprising if Pleasant Crossing takes a while to really fully develop, I would think.

I can't speak for Matt but I thought I had seen an article in the Arkansas Democrat Gazette talking about Best Buy and even having a map showing it's future location.

[mcheiss]

mcheiss-- did you find that out from a newspaper/media outlet or is that 'closed door' info? The reason I ask is that I'm curious how much more of that is happening that isn't put in the business section so to speak. Both developments seem to be competing mostly for the same type of retailers, and I wonder if Pinnacle has a lead over whoever is developing Pleasant Crossing. It's my understanding that they do. If that's the case it wouldn't be surprising if Pleasant Crossing takes a while to really fully develop, I would think.

That was published in the Arkansas Democrat Gazette. Pinnacle has about a year head start on Pleasant Crossing, but I think Pleasant Crossing will have just as much to offer.

[RemusCal]

It looks like Sharper Image and The Children's Place have both been approved for the Pinnacle Hills Promenade. These are 2 other upscale stores to add to this wonderful development.

[Mith242]

It looks like Sharper Image and The Children's Place have both been approved for the Pinnacle Hills Promenade. These are 2 other upscale stores to add to this wonderful development.

Cool, nice to see the Sharper Image coming to the area. Wasn't the guy who started it originally from Little Rock?

[mcheiss]

It looks like Sharper Image and The Children's Place have both been approved for the Pinnacle Hills Promenade. These are 2 other upscale stores to add to this wonderful development.

I knew you were going to beat me at this.

I've decided to split these topics, too much info in this. I'm going to make a Pleasant Crossing, Tuscany Square, Pinnacle Promenade, and Pinnacle Hills Shopps.

[Mith242]

I knew you were going to beat me at this.

I've decided to split these topics, too much info in this. I'm going to make a Pleasant Crossing, Tuscany Square, Pinnacle Promenade, and Pinnacle Hills Shopps.

Probably a good idea, since there is so much going on with all of these.

[RemusCal]

Just curious...With a mall of this size being almost 1 million square feet, are we not going to get a third dept. store? It just seems like that is a lot to fill up with only two department stores. I still can't believe we are not getting places like Nordstrom, Lord and Taylor, or Macys. All three of those would do really well here. It just seems like we are due for one more dept. store at this mall due to its size.

[masons_dad1]

Just curious...With a mall of this size being almost 1 million square feet, are we not going to get a third dept. store? It just seems like that is a lot to fill up with only two department stores. I still can't believe we are not getting places like Nordstrom, Lord and Taylor, or Macys. All three of those would do really well here. It just seems like we are due for one more dept. store at this mall due to its size.

Although it's not really a "mall" it could use another anchor, but the new Malco Theatre is considered an anchor. An "upscale" department store would be good although Pleasant Crossing is already getting the Parisian department store. I think what seperates this "lifestyle center" from a typical mall is that it will include a lot more full-service dining options that most malls don't offer. Add the fact that it will all be contained in a park-like setting with patio dining really sets it above most malls.

[DickSonstreetDFW]

Just curious...With a mall of this size being almost 1 million square feet, are we not going to get a third dept. store? It just seems like that is a lot to fill up with only two department stores. I still can't believe we are not getting places like Nordstrom, Lord and Taylor, or Macys. All three of those would do really well here. It just seems like we are due for one more dept. store at this mall due to its size.

I believe the Firewheel Town Center here in Garland is a good comparison to this development. It has two dept stores, as well as Black M, White H, Sharper Image, Lids, Ann Taylor Loft, etc.

The NWA area doesn't have the demographics to justify a Nordstroms or a Macy's.

There are only 3 Nordstroms all of DFW, and we have almost 6 million people in the metroplex, many uber rich, and draw shoppers from OK & AR as well.

There are only 2 Macy's here.

For comparison, there are 15 Dillards, 12 Foleys (similar to Dillards) in metro DFW.

Nordstroms doesn't even know where NWA is.

[masons_dad1]

I believe the Firewheel Town Center here in Garland is a good comparison to this development. It has two dept stores, as well as Black M, White H, Sharper Image, Lids, Ann Taylor Loft, etc.

You're right... they are nearly identical.

The NWA area doesn't have the demographics to justify a Nordstroms or a Macy's.

We didn't have the demographics to justify a Sak's Parisian either, but we're getting one. It won't be long before Nordstrom and Macy's discovers there's money to be made in Northwest Arkansas. The median household income in NWA is higher than most places that have them.

There are only 3 Nordstroms all of DFW, and we have almost 6 million people in the metroplex, many uber rich, and draw shoppers from OK & AR as well.

Odd. Denver has 2 Nordstroms and they're around a million population. Again, the median household income in some parts of NWA is higher than those locations in Dallas and Denver with a Nordstroms.

There are only 2 Macy's here.

Twin Falls, Idaho has a Macy's so who's to say Goobersville, Arkansas won't get one?

For comparison, there are 15 Dillards, 12 Foleys (similar to Dillards) in metro DFW.

DFW has 10 times the population as NWA and we'll have 2 Dillards this Fall, so it adds up. Actually, we have more Dillards per capita than DFW.

Nordstroms doesn't even know where NWA is.

That's what they said about Saks.

[DickSonstreetDFW]

^^

1) Saks Parisian is a completely different demographic than Nordstroms and Saks Fifth Avenue. Its a lower end store targeting smaller markets with more modest incomes. There are Saks Parisian stores in places like Decatur, AL. Gadsden, AL. Knoxville, TN, Columbia, SC. Tupelo, MS, etc, etc.

2) Denver, CO Core Based Statistical Area population in 2005 is 2,371,414, according to retail specific demographic software I use.

3)The median income in NWA is absolutely not higher than most places that have Nordstroms. I offer you the following comparison, again from data warehouses that specifically sell to retailers.

DFW's Nordstrom's locations:

A: 8687 Central Expressway - Dallas, TX - 3 mile population: 161,621; Avg HH Income: $94,786

B: 5220 Alpha Rd - Dallas, TX - 3 mile population: 111,694; Avg HH Income: $90,060

C: 2613 Preston Rd - Frisco, TX - 3 mile population: 62,530; Avg HH Income: $117,909

And in Rogers:

Centerpoint of Zip code 72758 - 3 mile population 9,970; Avg HH Income: $77,677

While NWA has pockets of higher income families, they aren't even on average as wealthy as everyone counted within three miles of the Nordstroms stores in DFW. Additionally, the population density doesn't even begin to compare with what the larger metros have.

A breakdown of the metros mentioned in this thread:

DFW: 5,844,700; Avg HH Income: $71,180

DEN: 2,371,414; Avg HH Income: $78,855

NWA: 397,806; Avg HH Income: $51,452

4) Macy's really isn't that much different from a Dillard's or a Foley's in my book, anyway.

5) Again, there is no Saks Fifth Avenue going into NWA. They put their Saks Parisian stores in many markets comparable to and even smaller and poorer than NWA.

Nordstroms in NWA is wishful thinking, my friend, nothing more.

[Aporkalypse]

^^

1) Saks Parisian is a completely different demographic than Nordstroms and Saks Fifth Avenue. Its a lower end store targeting smaller markets with more modest incomes. There are Saks Parisian stores in places like Decatur, AL. Gadsden, AL. Knoxville, TN, Columbia, SC. Tupelo, MS, etc, etc.

2) Denver, CO Core Based Statistical Area population in 2005 is 2,371,414, according to retail specific demographic software I use.

3)The median income in NWA is absolutely not higher than most places that have Nordstroms. I offer you the following comparison, again from data warehouses that specifically sell to retailers.

DFW's Nordstrom's locations:

A: 8687 Central Expressway - Dallas, TX - 3 mile population: 161,621; Avg HH Income: $94,786

B: 5220 Alpha Rd - Dallas, TX - 3 mile population: 111,694; Avg HH Income: $90,060

C: 2613 Preston Rd - Frisco, TX - 3 mile population: 62,530; Avg HH Income: $117,909

And in Rogers:

Centerpoint of Zip code 72758 - 3 mile population 9,970; Avg HH Income: $77,677

While NWA has pockets of higher income families, they aren't even on average as wealthy as everyone counted within three miles of the Nordstroms stores in DFW. Additionally, the population density doesn't even begin to compare with what the larger metros have.

A breakdown of the metros mentioned in this thread:

DFW: 5,844,700; Avg HH Income: $71,180

DEN: 2,371,414; Avg HH Income: $78,855

NWA: 397,806; Avg HH Income: $51,452

4) Macy's really isn't that much different from a Dillard's or a Foley's in my book, anyway.

5) Again, there is no Saks Fifth Avenue going into NWA. They put their Saks Parisian stores in many markets comparable to and even smaller and poorer than NWA.

Nordstroms in NWA is wishful thinking, my friend, nothing more.

You do this for a living, don't you?

I agree. There are certain things NWA's not in the market for that really are the staples of larger, wealthier cities - Nordstrom's, Cheesecake Factory, Ikea, a Trump Tower, etc. However, NWA and Benton Co in particular get far more retail development than anyone outside the area would ever expect based on growth and incomes and I think that's a testament to the region's strength.

[DickSonstreetDFW]

You do this for a living, don't you?

Yes, I have for four years now.

But not for much longer.

In NWA, I will be partnering with a developer on commercial and residential developments. My national retail real estate background will come in pretty handy.

[Aporkalypse]

Yes, I have for four years now.

But not for much longer.

In NWA, I will be partnering with a developer on commercial and residential developments. My national retail real estate background will come in pretty handy.

It sure should, as should all of your experience in DFW. Good luck.

[masons_dad1]

1) Saks Parisian is a completely different demographic than Nordstroms and Saks Fifth Avenue. Its a lower end store targeting smaller markets with more modest incomes. There are Saks Parisian stores in places like Decatur, AL. Gadsden, AL. Knoxville, TN, Columbia, SC. Tupelo, MS, etc, etc.

The Northwest Arkansas metro is larger than all of those markets and the median household income is much higher than all of those markets, except for Tupelo.

2) Denver, CO Core Based Statistical Area population in 2005 is 2,371,414, according to retail specific demographic software I use.

Ok... Denver has a third of Dallas' population yet they have 2 Nordstroms while Dallas has 3. Statistically comparable to Northwest Arkansas getting 1 Nordstrom.

3)The median income in NWA is absolutely not higher than most places that have Nordstroms. I offer you the following comparison, again from data warehouses that specifically sell to retailers.

DFW's Nordstrom's locations:

A: 8687 Central Expressway - Dallas, TX - 3 mile population: 161,621; Avg HH Income: $94,786

B: 5220 Alpha Rd - Dallas, TX - 3 mile population: 111,694; Avg HH Income: $90,060

I lived a couple blocks from this Galleria and the slums still exist there today. Median household income is $41,521 according to my demographics data.

C: 2613 Preston Rd - Frisco, TX - 3 mile population: 62,530; Avg HH Income: $117,909

Ok... you got me on a couple of those Nordstroms locations, but all big cities have wealthy neighborhoods. NWA's wealth is still scattered all over instead of concentrated in certain neighborhoods. This also will change as NWA becomes a larger metro with many of the new subdivisions being built with $500,000+ homes.

And in Rogers:

Centerpoint of Zip code 72758 - 3 mile population 9,970; Avg HH Income: $77,677

Most of the wealthy subdivisions 3 miles around Pinnacle Hills are still under construction. Don't worry though they should be completed and occupied before the next US Census.

While NWA has pockets of higher income families, they aren't even on average as wealthy as everyone counted within three miles of the Nordstroms stores in DFW. Additionally, the population density doesn't even begin to compare with what the larger metros have.

Not everyone around those Nordstrom locations in Dallas are wealthy. The Dallas Galleria area has it's share of slums. But you're right about population density... although it's actually a good thing because as fast as NWA is growing it has plenty of room to grow.

A breakdown of the metros mentioned in this thread:

DFW: 5,844,700; Avg HH Income: $71,180

DEN: 2,371,414; Avg HH Income: $78,855

NWA: 397,806; Avg HH Income: $51,452

NWA has a long way to go but it's definitely getting there and much faster than most small metros.

4) Macy's really isn't that much different from a Dillard's or a Foley's in my book, anyway.

So now you find out Twin Falls, Idaho has a Macy's so now Macy's is low class. IMHO, all department stores are the same, just some have much higher markups than others.

5) Again, there is no Saks Fifth Avenue going into NWA. They put their Saks Parisian stores in many markets comparable to and even smaller and poorer than NWA.

You're right about many of those markets being smaller and poorer than NWA, which is why we will eventually get a Sak's Fifth Avenue along with a Macy's and a Nordstroms.

Nordstroms in NWA is wishful thinking, my friend, nothing more.

Many of the things built, under construction and planned for Northwest Arkansas started out as "wishful thinking"... no different with Nordstroms.

[mcheiss]

I've heard some news that Ann Taylor Loft is going in Scottsdale Center along 45th Street. I'm pretty sure this is near the new Petco that just opened up. It could though be talking about the Southern Portion of 45th Street "AKA Hospital Boulevard" which is a street bordering the Promenade.

[DickSonstreetDFW]

Masons Dad:

Okay, dismiss the data that I provided. But its the data, or very close to the data that Nordstrom would use if they chose to locate in NWA.

Median income is simply the midpoint income if you lined up the income number of every household within the radius and picked the one that lay in the middle. Avg income is a much better reflection of disposable income in an area because it actually spreads the total incomes across every single household in the radius. The two (median and average) are very different. I will not give you a statistics lesson. Figure it out for yourself.

You mention the "slums" near the Galleria. Well, even factoring in those slums, and the slums near Central Expressway (some of the poorest areas of Dallas), you STILL get those higher average incomes which points to an incredible amount of wealth in the area. NWA has a tiny slice of that wealth, but nothing comparable. Its just a statistical reality.

The point is, Benton County is getting retail that is not uncommon for places of its population and economy. As it grows, the retail offerings will improve and increase.

Its currently nowhere close to being a market that Nordstrom would consider.

To address a couple of your other points:

Yes, Saks Parisian is already in markets smaller than NWA. What does that tell you about retailers and where NWA fits on their list of priority markets?

My original point about Macy's not coming to NWA has less to do with it being high end and more to do with the fact that Macy's is not in an expansion mode. There are 75 markets they would consider before NWA. Nordstrom is a higher level than that. And above that you have Barneys and Neiman Marcus.

Your statistical comparison of NWA to Denver and DFW is, quite frankly ridiculous. DFW has one Nordstrom store per roughly every 2 million people. Denver, with slightly higher disposable income and a monopoly on an entire state and region for shopping, has one Nordstrom store per every 1.25 million people. If you use the Denver equation, NWA will have to triple from its current population to support one Nordstrom store.

If you wish to believe that Nordstrom, given its current strategy for placement of stores in high end, high population markets, will be considering NWA anytime in the next decade, even factoring in the growth it now has, then that is your perogative. If I were a betting man and you offered, I'd put about ten grand on "No."

[masons_dad1]

^^

I'm not dismissing your data on statistics... you're obviously a professional demographics analyst using professional software while I'm just a web-surfer using open-license software based on the 2000 US Census.

To be honest I couldn't care less if Northwest Arkansas gets a Nordstrom or a Macy's. They're just overpriced department stores catering to those affluent customers with excessive disposable income of which I am not. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if Northwest Arkansas gets one of these retailers in the near future, whether it's feasible right now or not.

Who would have guessed that NWA would be getting one of the finest art museums in the country? I'm just along for the ride and although I'm impressed with a lot of the developments in NWA, none have really impressed me as much as if they were to be building a "family-oriented" attraction like an amusement or theme park, a zoo, aquarium, hands-on science museum or anything else that kids would benefit from.

You're probably right about Nordstroms and Macy's but stranger things have happened in NWA.

[DickSonstreetDFW]

^^

I'm not dismissing your data on statistics...

Actually, you were.

But we can still get along.

[masons_dad1]

Actually, you were.

But we can still get along.

Actually, I wasn't. I'm sorry if that's how it seemed. I admit I was a bit stubborn about Nordstroms but I never questioned your population counts or median HH incomes... except for North Dallas. My prediction that Northwest Arkansas will get some of these big name, big dollar retailers is based more on the uniqueness of NWA and less on statistics. Some may say Northwest Arkansas isn't so unique but I'd have plenty of examples to present them to show the contrary, although it might take a little time.