Grrreenville Grrrowl

[gs3]

Why did Scheer sell the Grrrowl?

[whitehourseview]

Why did Scheer sell the Grrrowl?

Last year about this time, he moved back to Charlotte. He has interests in the Charlotte Checkers club, but I gather he's become semi-retired.

[gs3]

Thanks!

IMHO, Hockey has also been one of the least stable of minor league sports. Being from Birmingham, it had a long history with troubled Hockey teams, so I'm familiar with this scenario. There were the Bulls, then they went under, then the Northstars, then they went under, then the Bulls again, and I think they went under. To be quite honest, not sure if that city has hockey at the moment, haven't kept up. Hockey has always felt much less stable than baseball, but a little more stable than Arena Football, Basketball development leagues, etc.

[whitehourseview]

Yeah, hockey will always be less stable as long as the current structure is in place. No NHL team owns a minor league franchise, or even owns the team.

The G Braves organization was soley owned by Ted Turner/Time Warner, with the exception of the stadium. The Drive organization owns the stadium, but not the team.

The Grrrowl had to run an arena and run a team. They had agreements with two NHL and 1 AHL club about where to send players, and those clubs could send players to Greenville for rehab, like the Edmonton Oilers goalie Mike Morrison (watch him in the Stanley Cup vs. Carolina) this season. On top of that, they had to finance the arena's debt because they were the arena's only permanent tenant.

That's not a long-term plan for success.

And add in the fact that Major League Baseball, and its Minor League subsidiary is a ton more profitable than the NHL and ECHL and there are some inherrent problems to deal with.

Now, if in the next few years, the right sort of driven, marketing savy, ownership can figure out how to succed with that sort of structure, then it could work.

You mentioned gman the people in the county's attendance at churches and college football games. The commonn denominator in both is the communal aspect. Folks in the Upstate are communal, village minded sorts, not individualistic sorts, at least culturally. The Drive have wisely tapped into that: downtown, kids play area, Spinx 500 club, wide concourses to walk and meet people, etc. I don't think the Grrrowl ever did, beyond their small booster club.

Could you imagine folks tailgating for Grrrowl games before a Saturday game? Sorta a winter version of Downtown alive? That kind of thing needs to happen. It is best said in Greenville, and most places in the deep South, that you cannot just say to folks, we have a great exciting product, now show up. You have to do things to show folks that you are customer service minded, that it is a community event where you can meet neighbors and business associates, etc.

[gs3]

Yeah, hockey will always be less stable as long as the current structure is in place. No NHL team owns a minor league franchise, or even owns the team.

The G Braves organization was soley owned by Ted Turner/Time Warner, with the exception of the stadium. The Drive organization owns the stadium, but not the team.

The Grrrowl had to run an arena and run a team. They had agreements with two NHL and 1 AHL club about where to send players, and those clubs could send players to Greenville for rehab, like the Edmonton Oilers goalie Mike Morrison (watch him in the Stanley Cup vs. Carolina) this season. On top of that, they had to finance the arena's debt because they were the arena's only permanent tenant.

That's not a long-term plan for success.

And add in the fact that Major League Baseball, and its Minor League subsidiary is a ton more profitable than the NHL and ECHL and there are some inherrent problems to deal with.

Now, if in the next few years, the right sort of driven, marketing savy, ownership can figure out how to succed with that sort of structure, then it could work.

You mentioned gman the people in the county's attendance at churches and college football games. The commonn denominator in both is the communal aspect. Folks in the Upstate are communal, village minded sorts, not individualistic sorts, at least culturally. The Drive have wisely tapped into that: downtown, kids play area, Spinx 500 club, wide concourses to walk and meet people, etc. I don't think the Grrrowl ever did, beyond their small booster club.

Could you imagine folks tailgating for Grrrowl games before a Saturday game? Sorta a winter version of Downtown alive? That kind of thing needs to happen. It is best said in Greenville, and most places in the deep South, that you cannot just say to folks, we have a great exciting product, now show up. You have to do things to show folks that you are customer service minded, that it is a community event where you can meet neighbors and business associates, etc.

Your post is so right on the money!!!!

Funny, you talk about the communal aspect......Memorial Day weekend had friends and family in town and we all went to the Drive / Augusta game. After being there a while, my friends and family commented on the social aspect of the game....one likening the ballpark to a old town square, social gathering. The Drive definitely tapped into that great pedestrian oriented, community togetherness, communal aspect, etc, etc

I look forward to the games not only for the game, but seeing friends and sharing beer over a few laughs with strangers. I think this all goes back to what many of us agree on, the Grrrowl management wasn't tapped into the community the way the Drive is.....the understanding by the Grrrowl management simply wasn't there.

[goodbye]

The really sad thing is that the Bi-Lo Center is now home to no one. There is virtually nothing there that could draw me back anymore - I'm not a huge fan of Country or Gospel.

I have been thinking about Greenville and its vitality and it occured to me that perhaps the Bi-Lo Center is just too far removed from the urban core along Main Street. Everything that is built there becomes a success. On the other hand, it would have been great to see more promotion of the team and its home games.

[gs3]

Come on Skyliner....you mean you wouldn't go back even if we got the traveling show for Baldknobbers????

http://www.branson-shows.net/tours/tourDetail.cfm/tid/2073

[whitehourseview]

Anyone remember Carl Scheer's idea to have a practice ice rink/ public use facility off of Woodruff Road by the Point?

And of course the worse thing about the Grrrowl shutting down is 10 full time employees lose their jobs, and lots of part time help.

The only coach the Grrrowl have had, John Marks, is a real nice man, and as he said in the paper today, there aren't too many listings in the want ads for late 50's pro sports coaches.

Lots of semi-retired folks worked as ushers and in concessions as a way to make an extra buck as well.

The folding of the team had other factors as well that couldn't be helped. The arena and team came about in 1998, during what Alan Greenspan called the era of irrational exuberance. Attendance was through the roof for everything there.

By the time 2000-2001 came with an economic downturn, terrorist strikes, layoffs, stock market downturn, etc., one of the first things to go in folks disposable income/ entertainment dollar was minor league sports.

Lots of minor league teams across the nation have folded in the past few years, the Grrrowl are just another casualty in this.

I think there is a market for a team and the arena, but it has to be carefully.

[Greenville]

Five huge problems with the Grrrowl in Greenville:

1. Ticket prices were too high. RT, I agree with you about the need for cheap general admission tickets for the upper bowl. If I owned a team like the Grrrowl, or the Groove, I would have charged $5 or so a ticket and banked on making money on concessions. Heck, have one night a month that is free even for the entire arena. You would make a killing on concessions, and perhaps introduce people to the sport that wouldn't have come otherwise.

2. The Bi-Lo Center is not really connected to downtown (in pedestrian terms) yet. I wonder how many people who attended Grrrowl games would go downtown to eat, and then walk to the Bi-Lo Center? I bet it was very few, especially since people also park in lots across E. North Street. Hopefully the arena will be better connected to the rest of downtown's activity in the near future. Unless it is a destination, like the ballpark and its wide array of attractions, some people won't go if they feel like it is a little out of their way (see Braves, Greenville).

3. The marketing was poor/non-existant. If not for the Grrrowl awning above one of the ticket windows, and perhaps a small mention on the arena's sign, you would not know that the Grrrowl play at the Bi-Lo Center. I don't think I have ever seen more than one billboard around town. There were commercials (which were pretty funny!) during the first few years of the Grrrowl, but none since then. This issue alone is evidence that the owners didn't do "all they could" to keep the team here.

4. The majority of people in Greenville, as well as most people in the United States, did not grow up playing hockey. This is not true for sports like baseball, basketball, and football. It is harder to convince people to give it a shot if it is unfamiliar to them. Soccer has been in a similar situation in America, although the growing popularity of youth soccer over the past 20 years will probably translate into growing popularity of the MLS league in years to come.

5. Minor league sports, in general, are hard to get behind as a fan. The perception is that the players are not good enough for the pros, and that most of the roster won't be around the following year. In the pros, you can follow a team or specific player even and know what you're getting. How many kids have a favorite player in the minor leagues? Very few. Minor league sports are a hard sell anywhere, not just Greenville. The fact that several recent minor league teams in Greenville have been unsuccessful says more about the blah factor of minor league competition and less about people's financial status or spending ability in Greenville.

[breed]

One thing that the Drive have done that I completely underappreciated (as others have mentioned) the social aspect of attending Drive games. Personally, I go to games to watch the game. Others don't. I don't understand it, but when you go to games, you have to appreciate the mingling of the masses. The park is perfectly designed for this purpose.

[Spartan]

I would go on a rant about what the Grrrowl did wrong, which seemed to be everything, but there's no point anymore. All I have to say is it wasn't just the Grrrowl, the Rhinos and Groove also folded. That's the problem with people in this county, all they want to do is go to their churches and college football games. They don't care about their minor league teams and never have. I just hope the same thing doesn't happen to the Drive like what has happened to every other minor league sport that has come here. All the Drive is right now is a novelty, just like the Grrrowl were when they first came here, but not as much though. You watch, I bet the Drive's attendance will drop every year after this one just like every other team that came here has had happened to them. I sure hope i'm wrong though.

I think the Drive's new stadium will keep people coming becasue of its location. The stadium is better integrated with downtown than the BI-LO center, which was built at a more questionable time in downtown's past.

4. The majority of people in Greenville, as well as most people in the United States, did not grow up playing hockey. This is not true for sports like baseball, basketball, and football. It is harder to convince people to give it a shot if it is unfamiliar to them. Soccer has been in a similar situation in America, although the growing popularity of youth soccer over the past 20 years will probably translate into growing popularity of the MLS league in years to come.

I think that this reason is far an away the main reason that the Grrowl folded. Few people in this part of the country care about hockey. Its a cold weather sport, and we don't have cold weather here.

[whitehourseview]

I think the Drive's new stadium will keep people coming becasue of its location. The stadium is better integrated with downtown than the BI-LO center, which was built at a more questionable time in downtown's past.

I think that this reason is far an away the main reason that the Grrowl folded. Few people in this part of the country care about hockey. Its a cold weather sport, and we don't have cold weather here.

But the South Carolina Stingrays and the Gwinnet Gladiators have been selling out for some time, the Charlotte Checkers average about 5,000 a game and the Augusta Lynx are doing fairly well to.

If the excuse was Hockey's lack of appeal in the deep South, these other teams would be struggling too, but they are not.

Let's face it, other than game day hockey operations, the effort to promote the team just wasn't there.

[Greenville]

I don't consider us to be "deep South" at all, but that doesn't change the fact that people here (as well as a majority of the rest of the country) did not grow up playing hockey. I don't think that means that hockey can't be popular despite that, but it certainly makes it more difficult when other things are also lacking (good marketing, ticket prices that are too high, etc.).

[gs3]

On attendance, look at this chart for the entire leaque. Greenville averaged somewhere near the bottom of middle. Looks like Charleston has averaged really good attendance, and Columbia, only six, yeap 6, more people per game. While the attendance numbers weren't stellar, they were certainly well ahead of many other cities. I think this goes back to the management....not enough funding, lack of PR, etc. Oh well. We'll see how this plays out and pops up next.

http://www.echl.com/attendance.shtml

Attendance Report

Team Yesterday Total Openings Average

Stockton 228364 36 6343

Florida 224628 36 6239

San Diego 210305 36 5841

Charlotte 210132 36 5837

Bakersfield 201729 36 5603

Reading 200465 36 5568

Las Vegas 199131 36 5531

Gwinnett 198873 36 5524

South Carolina 180000 36 5000

Alaska 175797 36 4883

Fresno 160776 36 4466

Idaho 157135 36 4364

Trenton 154815 36 4300

Victoria 152286 36 4230

Toledo 142931 36 3970

Utah 138394 36 3844

Phoenix 132985 36 3694

Dayton 124406 36 3455

Columbia 124182 36 3449

Greenville 123968 36 3443

Wheeling 108286 36 3007

Pensacola 106805 36 2966

Augusta 102376 36 2843

Long Beach 88865 36 2468

Johnstown 87160 36 2421

Mississippi 2113 1 2113

Texas 70896 36 1969

Totals 4007803 937 4277

[whitehourseview]

I don't consider us to be "deep South" at all, but that doesn't change the fact that people here (as well as a majority of the rest of the country) did not grow up playing hockey. I don't think that means that hockey can't be popular despite that, but it certainly makes it more difficult when other things are also lacking (good marketing, ticket prices that are too high, etc.).

I don't quite understand, if Greenville is not 'deep South', then what is? By any historical definition the town is.

[Greenville]

I don't quite understand, if Greenville is not 'deep South', then what is? By any historical definition the town is.

To me, "deep South" defines places like Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and South Georgia. In addition, I have always understood deep South to mean more rural places - places with a simple life and slower pace. So on the basis of geography as well as the atmosphere and vibe, I don't think South Carolina is deep South at all. South Carolina, and Greenville, are simply in the South. When you compare people in South Carolina to people in Mississippi, can't you see a pronounced difference in the way people seem, act, talk, behave, etc.? I certainly can. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there are most definitely differences.

[adrockc2]

South Carolina is in no way the deep south.

[gs3]

Greenville certainly isn't "deep south". Jackson and Memphis are "deep south" and Montgomery, Mobile and Birmingham are next in line for "deep south". I grew up in Birmingham and as an adult one of the cities I've lived in was Jackson......Greenville feels almost "East Coast" by comparison. Greenville is Southern, but not deep south.

[whitehourseview]

To me, "deep South" defines places like Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and South Georgia. In addition, I have always understood deep South to mean more rural places - places with a simple life and slower pace. So on the basis of geography as well as the atmosphere and vibe, I don't think South Carolina is deep South at all. South Carolina, and Greenville, are simply in the South. When you compare people in South Carolina to people in Mississippi, can't you see a pronounced difference in the way people seem, act, talk, behave, etc.? I certainly can. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there are most definitely differences.

The traditional understanding of the term "Deep South" means the core states of South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, and Alabama. Northern Florida is often considered to be part of the Deep South due to its cultural connections with Alabama and south Georgia, and of course southern Florida was not really settled to a large degree till after the 1920's.

The term came into being in mid 19th century and sometimes refers to the original states that seceded from the Union before April 1860, and does not include the second secession after Fort Sumter of North Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, and Arkansas; nor any of the border states of Kentucky or Missouri which have often been called Southern but did not leave the Union.

There is a another geographic designation of "Old South" which has referred to the original Southern states of Maryland, Virginia, the Carolinas and Georgia after the colonial period, where before they were just the Southern colonies.

[goodbye]

WYFF 4 is reporting that the Grrrowl may be back next year at least! If this turns out to be true, get every friend and familiy member you know to purchase season passes, or at least a game per week. We need this team to stay in Greenville!

[Greenville]

The approach by ownership and management better be a lot different, or else we're looking at a case of "same song, different verse" in terms of attendance. I am optimistic that they will do all they can, as they know this is their last shot to make it happen. Hopefully, enough fans will give it a shot as well - especially if they feel they can make a difference in keeping the team in town.

[g-man430]

http://www.wyff4.com/news/9359746/detail.html

[whitehourseview]

Yep, they not only need the luxury suites to be purchased at sustaining levels, but I would love to see the upper level opened up as a $5 general admission part of the arena.

I was watching the NHL Stanley Cup tonight and noticed the announcers saying about the Oilers describe their arena, the Rexal Center, and I figured out that it is essentially the same size as the Bi-Lo Center. The building is a tremendous resource and I'm glad the city is taking leadership to help folks realise what we have.

[gs3]

http://www.wyff4.com/news/9359746/detail.html

I hope things work out, but find it funny how much Rubensteins comments and attiude have change in such a short time. About face.

[RestedTraveler]

In the end, it's all about getting bottoms in the seats. If they are on the ice next year again, they need to launch a relentless effort to get people in the building for the games. Slashing ticket prices, at least on certain nights, would go a long way toward getting me in the building. Once I'm in there, I'm sure I'll spend more...I always do. I suspect I'm not alone.