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Ruso

Che Guevara

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Considered a heroe by many, and a demon by others, Ernesto Guevara has been one of the most important political figures of Latin America. Now, however, his real ideals have been forgotten, and his face and simbols are being used by many companies for advertisenments. Currently, he is seen in many shirts, in many walls, in many labels, but nobody remembers what he stood for.

What do you think about him?

:ph34r:

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He's a deceiver and a murderer, and I think it's embarassing that Latinos have been brainwashed into regarding him as a cultural symbol. If you want to capture a revolutionary spirit look to Bolivar or O'Higgins ... not the cheap lies of Che.

Che used the intoxicating rhetoric of freedom and even liberalism to help the Cubans rise up against the dictator Batista. How ironic that while he garnered the support of thousands of well-meaning freedom fighters, he actually conspired to replace Batista with a Stalinist state ... even more illiberal and opposed to true freedom than those they overthrew.

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Am glad you know about Bolivar, or O'Higgins. Ironically, not many outside South America know much about them. Guevara, if something, is together with Castro, one of the few Latin American symbols reknowned outside. If you take him as a brainwasher, then his victims were not only from Latin America.

But I see Guevara as an idealist. His dreams in Cuba were later corrupted by Castro's regime. Many say that is the reason he parted to Bolivia, many say they separated because of that. Something similar to Trotsky being betrayed by Stalin. :ph34r:

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Am glad you know about Bolivar, or O'Higgins. Ironically, not many outside South America know much about them. Guevara, if something, is together with Castro, one of the few Latin American symbols reknowned outside. If you take him as a brainwasher, then his victims were not only from Latin America.

But I see Guevara as an idealist. His dreams in Cuba were later corrupted by Castro's regime. Many say that is the reason he parted to Bolivia, many say they separated because of that. Something similar to Trotsky being betrayed by Stalin.  :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Twatsky was the betrayer who got what he deserved. Both Guevara and Castro were "Stalinists" (Marxist-Leninists).

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Twatsky was the betrayer who got what he deserved. Both Guevara and Castro were "Stalinists" (Marxist-Leninists).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Really? A betrayer? How come, for thinking? Am sorry, you most be surely joking by stating your support for Stalin, a man who did not care for any ideology, and killed with no mercy. A marxist-leninist is not a stalinist.

:ph34r:

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He's a deceiver and a murderer, and I think it's embarassing that Latinos have been brainwashed into regarding him as a cultural symbol. If you want to capture a revolutionary spirit look to Bolivar or O'Higgins ... not the cheap lies of Che.

Che used the intoxicating rhetoric of freedom and even liberalism to help the Cubans rise up against the dictator Batista. How ironic that while he garnered the support of thousands of well-meaning freedom fighters, he actually conspired to replace Batista with a Stalinist state ... even more illiberal and opposed to true freedom than those they overthrew.

Che Guevera is probably the only true Communist (that is known) to ever live. He was pure to the idealogy of it, over Mao, Stalin, Lenin. He through out Batista to set up a state where all Cubans had equal share in the Gov't and equality amoungst each other. Instead of being exploited by a man who let foreign companies enter Cuba and make money off them and not give back to the people. He meant well for all people who could see past greed. Do your homework, and look at things through unbiased eyes and then the truth is apparent.

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He meant well for all people who could see past greed. Do your homework, and look at things through unbiased eyes and then the truth is apparent.

You do some homework. Che Guevara was a murderous thug. He was especially famous for presiding over summary executions at La Cabana, the fortress that was his slaughterhouse. He liked to administer the coup de grace, the bullet to the back of the neck. And he loved to parade people past El Paredon, the reddened wall against which so many innocents were killed. Futhermore, he established the labor-camp system in which countless citizens - dissidents, democrats, artists, homosexuals - would suffer and die; the Cuban gulag.

Wearing a Che t-shirt is akin to wearing a shirt with Adolf Hitler.

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You do some homework. Che Guevara was a murderous thug. He was especially famous for presiding over summary executions at La Cabana, the fortress that was his slaughterhouse. He liked to administer the coup de grace, the bullet to the back of the neck. And he loved to parade people past El Paredon, the reddened wall against which so many innocents were killed. Futhermore, he established the labor-camp system in which countless citizens - dissidents, democrats, artists, homosexuals - would suffer and die; the Cuban gulag.

Wearing a Che t-shirt is akin to wearing a shirt with Adolf Hitler.

Wowww!, lets not go to the extremes here. Guevara was, in fact, a murderer. However, you do need to check out your sources, or in any case, they way those "facts" are told. It is not that simple, for reduciing him to only a murderer is like erasing more than 90% of history. Also, why do people always compare those who they disagree with, with Hitler? It is just too naive.

ie. Bush-Hitler, Guevarra-Hitler, castro-hitler, Reagan-Hitler, I can go on forever

:ph34r:

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Wowww!, lets not go to the extremes here. Guevara was, in fact, a murderer. However, you do need to check out your sources, or in any case, they way those "facts" are told. It is not that simple, for reduciing him to only a murderer is like erasing more than 90% of history.

You need to check your sources, I am not going to extremes. The people who are going to extremes are those folks trying to turn this murderous puke into an idol.

Also, why do people always compare those who they disagree with, with Hitler?

People who round up and murder those they disagree with are the same; Guevara and Hitler are the worse of the worst.

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You need to check your sources, I am not going to extremes. The people who are going to extremes are those folks trying to turn this murderous puke into an idol.

People who round up and murder those they disagree with are the same; Guevara and Hitler are the worse of the worst.

Yes, I have cecked my sources. I have read a variety of books, from right wing writers, as well as from leftists. I am, just to inform you, living also in latin America, and believe me, seeing the world, and history from more than one perspective really changes your view, opens your mind. Of course you are going to extremes. I could also argue that so many american presidents are like hitler for all the people they actually killed in so many nations, with their disgusting( I am using this absolute word) imperialistic policies. So really, it is essential to remember that not everything is white and black.

:ph34r:

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Che was a brilliant leader. Reducing him to the a level of a "thug" is a gross mistake. Even though I disagree with much of his methods and ideology, I can recognize and support the truth underlying his cause.

It disgusts me how his legacy has been misinterpreted and reduced to a trendy t-shirt icon. -_-

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Che was a brilliant leader. Reducing him to the a level of a "thug" is a gross mistake. Even though I disagree with much of his methods and ideology, I can recognize and support the truth underlying his cause.

It disgusts me how his legacy has been misinterpreted and reduced to a trendy t-shirt icon. -_-

Yes, very true.

What did you all think of the recent movie "Motorcycle Diaries"? Was it accurate in your opinion?

I'll be in Cuba in a few weeks and may check out his museum/monument in Santa Clara if I have time.

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He's a deceiver and a murderer, and I think it's embarassing that Latinos have been brainwashed into regarding him as a cultural symbol. If you want to capture a revolutionary spirit look to Bolivar or O'Higgins ... not the cheap lies of Che.

Che used the intoxicating rhetoric of freedom and even liberalism to help the Cubans rise up against the dictator Batista. How ironic that while he garnered the support of thousands of well-meaning freedom fighters, he actually conspired to replace Batista with a Stalinist state ... even more illiberal and opposed to true freedom than those they overthrew.

I totally agree with you. :thumbsup:

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Che was a brilliant leader. Reducing him to the a level of a "thug" is a gross mistake. Even though I disagree with much of his methods and ideology, I can recognize and support the truth underlying his cause.

It disgusts me how his legacy has been misinterpreted and reduced to a trendy t-shirt icon. -_-

Agreed. Che was an incredible guy who believed the only way to change the status quo was through a violent revolution. I wouldn't put it past him.

His biography is incredibly interesting.

:thumbsup:

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Interesting discussion, I am very well aware of Bolivar, and I believe he is the greatest statesman ever to come out of South/Central America. Who though was O'Higgins, I do not recall him?

Che got what he deserved, I tend to agree with SunD on this one. Too bad Castro did not recieve a similar fate. I think in the 50's in Cuba it was no capitalist paradise, but both Che and Castro failed in their original mission of making Cuba work, it is in fact much much worse then it was even under the worst days of Batista.

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Yeah, I remember when I was at Chico State University, the Che shirts were all over. It was like a fashion statement or something.

I always found it ironic and kind of funny that there was a Bernardo O'Higgins in Chile (or was it Peru? For some reason, I have always gotten the two confused...). An Irish name like O'Higgins was the last thing I would have expected there, and is all the funnier when the first name is Bernardo.

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Interesting discussion, I am very well aware of Bolivar, and I believe he is the greatest statesman ever to come out of South/Central America. Who though was O'Higgins, I do not recall him?

Che got what he deserved, I tend to agree with SunD on this one. Too bad Castro did not recieve a similar fate. I think in the 50's in Cuba it was no capitalist paradise, but both Che and Castro failed in their original mission of making Cuba work, it is in fact much much worse then it was even under the worst days of Batista.

O' Higgins was Chile's libertador.

Bolivar----Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador

San Mart

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I'm the same way about things and people becoming fashion statements and the true meaning of it getting lost in the process - for example Von Dutch shirts and hats. All the skater-types wear this stuff but have no idea who he was or what he did to contribute to lowbrow art and hot rodding in general. And it's sort of amusing when I see a black chick wearing it - they obviously know nothing about the guy and his biggest character flaw. Von Dutch was a flaming big racist.

A much lighter example than Che, to be sure, but I do know what you mean.

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Interesting info on VonDutch, I haven't heard of him for years, that is a very good point, I've seen lots of African Americans wearing that stuff lately.

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Well, if it was Guevara's aim to induce equality, then he was worse than a fool.

Now perhaps I'm misinformed about his aims.

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I think fool is too harsh, he was a very smart, if evil, man. Maybe a tool of others would be a more appropriate label?

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I've always thought that Che started out with the best of intentions, but became misled as the years went on, but still always acted in what he thought was the best interest of the people, even though that often meant systematic murder.

Those who wear the Che shirts typically don't know who he was, but the fact that it works up the staunch anti-Commie sect so much may be a clue as to why they wear them in the first place. If you ask them though (and I have), they will profess that they know exactly what he stood for as a liberator of the Cuban people.

It's really unfortunate how little is known by most Americans regarding that piece in history. Most of Latin American history is traditionally ignored by more Euro-centric history courses in public schools, and the only place it seems to be brought up to any extent is in specific Latin American History courses in college.

Che's legacy is just indicative of the confusion regarding Latin American history, especially in the Hispanic community.

Just my observations.

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^^Excellent point, especially that hispanics sometimes forget their own heritage. Heck American kids are lucky if they have a base comprehension of current events or American history!? Ever catch the "Jay Walking" spoofs on Leno, students at some of the top universities in this nation that can't tell you where Iraq is on a map or who we fought in the Revolutionary War. I think the pathos for history of ALL kinds is severly lacking in this country.

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I think fool is too harsh, he was a very smart, if evil, man. Maybe a tool of others would be a more appropriate label?

Isnt evil an exaggerated word?

Not everything is white and black, there is always a grayscale

It's really unfortunate how little is known by most Americans regarding that piece in history. Most of Latin American history is traditionally ignored by more Euro-centric history courses in public schools, and the only place it seems to be brought up to any extent is in specific Latin American History courses in college.

Che's legacy is just indicative of the confusion regarding Latin American history, especially in the Hispanic community.

^^Excellent point, especially that hispanics sometimes forget their own heritage. Heck American kids are lucky if they have a base comprehension of current events or American history!? Ever catch the "Jay Walking" spoofs on Leno, students at some of the top universities in this nation that can't tell you where Iraq is on a map or who we fought in the Revolutionary War. I think the pathos for history of ALL kinds is severly lacking in this country.

I completely agree. When I lived in the States, most of my friends thought that Osama Ben Laden was Iraq's president, that Rome was in Latin America and that the Renaissance ocurred in the USA....(also---that pizza was created in the USA....what a blasphemy!)

But let me assure you that here, Che is not considered a heroe by offical history, whatsoever. Even though I just graduated from a private school, where most people praise money, the USA, "Nike" and ARE TOUGHT TO HATE any alternative ideas, I have read the official public school history textbooks, and Che is not depicted as a something more than just a leftist revolutionary.

I will always fight for objectivty and moderation, and I will always struggle against generalizations and prejudices. To talk about Che, one should not only trust that version to which one has been always exposed, but, also, be willing to learn about different sides.

Just as some adore Che without understaing why, not knowing his real history, others hate him for the same reasons.

One has to be very careful

:ph34r:

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^^Agreed on the uselessness of "hate", but to call Che's action at times anything less then evil is an understatement. I think the world is grey at times and at times it is very black and white. His motivations might have been in the right place but you still should never act to hurt or kill anyone, no matter how righteous the cause.

Latin America at the time was a mixed up place where at times no matter how respectful you were you still got kicked around. The difference I feel is that when Che had the power on his side he did not follow a Bolivaresque example of raising civility but was as ruthless if not more so then the very power he toppled.

Washington is probably the best example of how a statesman can set a whole continent on a track for prosperity and relative peace for centuries by being the alternative to the power he topples in every aspect and through time. Bolivar had many of those characteristics. The opposite of this would be the fable of "Animal Farm" where the ones toppling injustice feel they have the right to be just as vicious if not more so as the power they just ousted. Evil is a strong and harsh word but Che demonstrated it, if he did those things without the political motive he would be on death row for some of his crimes. Grey indeed exists and has to be dealt with but it would not have excused Washington from senseless brutality or power grabs, and it should not excuse Che.

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