CATA Ridership on the Rise

[RustTown]

BTW, what did you move for? Work, family...a combination?

[dunveth]

I graduated from MSU in 1979 with a degree in urban planning. I wanted to take some time off before Law School, and I moved to the Ozarks to "live off the land" and grow my own herbs.

I ended up as a United Methodist minister, serving pastorates in Kansas City, San Francisco, Southern California, and now here in the Delta.

I have been all over, but if I could steel myself for the winters, I would move back to Michigan in a heartbeat!

dhl

[dunveth]

Now back to the subject at hand --

How about one of you young whippersnappers use some Photoshop magic, and draw up a tentative route (perhaps along the old Grand Trunk tracks).

Let's give Lansing leadership something to think about ... any of you Lansing residents ready to run for mayor or city council?

[hood]

Now back to the subject at hand --

How about one of you young whippersnappers use some Photoshop magic, and draw up a tentative route (perhaps along the old Grand Trunk tracks).

Let's give Lansing leadership something to think about ... any of you Lansing residents ready to run for mayor or city council?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would draw something up, but I can't figure out how to save a decent sattelite photo, except for one that is made up of a bunch of small tiles, Lmich knows how to do that stuff. How do you do that?

[RustTown]

Well, when you get into terraserver, and you find the size and such of the picture you want, there is a tab in the upper right hand corner that says "download." Click that, and then when you save it, it will save the entire image.

[hood]

Here is my idea for Light Rail: The first route that should be built (in Yellow) should go along Michigan Ave. from the CATA station in downtown Lansing to the MSU CATA station. It should then go up Washington and turn West on Grand River, then North on N. Grand River to the Airport. The Second route (In Green) should be built based on the success on the first, it's a downtown loop, from Kalamazoo, MLK, Shiawassee and Grand. The third route (In Red) should be built only if there is considerable development to the South of downtown. I goes on River St, to St. Joe, to MLK and merges in with the existing route on Grand and MLK.

[RustTown]

There HAS to be at least one line down either Cedar or MLK into South Lansing. I'd like a route from downtown to the Celebration Cinema retail area in South Lansing. And something from "Mall to Mall" Meridian to Delta to serve the east and west metro. Off course, these would have to come later, though.

[hood]

I was going to add a rout going south but the map wasn't big enough. I think it would be important to have it extend to an area where there could be a large amount of parking, several thousand spaces so people could park out there and be shuttled downotwn into work, or as visitors. Same thing for a route extending further east north or west. I think the key route wouldbe the Michigan Ave/Airport route though, the infastructure, once begun, would be 10-20 years before completion, and by then there would probably be the need for further routes that we can't even imagine right now.

[statedude3]

I've actually started designing a map of what I would like to see, but I've been too busy to complete it this weekend (MSU football, etc.). I'll get it up in a day or so

[patrickom]

Hooray! I actually have something useful to contribute! Ooh, ooh, pick me, pick me!

(I've been asking stupid questions for my first couple posts).

Ok, so here it is. For quite a while I regularly rode the route 48 shuttle into Lansing (from Williamston) in the morning and back out at night. A few observations concerning any light rail on the current East Lansing / Meridian Mall line (route 1, of which route 48 is an extension):

- This (the Williamston shuttle) is a close-knit community. If you shut down the line for even a week to make a transition, many of them will scatter. On the other hand, if you do this right, I can easily see this group of about 20 daily riders tripling in size.

- The core riders are mostly professionals who know each other and like to read or talk. They do not generally sleep. If you make them change from a bus to a train halfway through their trip, they will probably be okay with that, but you'd better make sure the switching location is nicer than anything currently in Meridian Township. The mall and Meijer, which currently serve those purposes, are absolutely aweful. This would have to be a dedicated, heated location, preferably with comfy chairs and wi-fi. In other words, a subsidized Barnes and Noble.

- Ok, that last item was rediculous. But true. Make sure there's at least a well-heated, enclosed shelter with plenty of seating. And maybe made of transparent material with some good lighting so it's not creepy in the dark winter months.

At the same time, any light rail still must serve the mall and Meijer directly. Regular route one riders want a quick on and off time for their bus; they aren't like the distance commuters on route 48. Meijer and the mall are two of the main things that draw MSU students to the bus system, so any light rail that requires an exchange before getting to those places loses right off the bat.

One more thing to consider, in regards to NIMBYs: Cata currently has a much greater presence in their "home" county of Ingham than anywhere else. This is partly because of funding disputes, but also (correct me if I'm wrong) because Okemos is a much more liberal market than Delta Twp., with a constituancy that doesn't mind busses or rail (or for that matter, sidewalks) as much. That, along with the way the airport is currently (basically not) funded by non-Ingham residents, would probably mean focusing on the Lansing/Okemos corridor and perhaps South Lansing.

Ok, so I think maybe this thread is dead. But if anyone wants to respond, I would love to read more on this fascinating topic.

[hood]

You make a very good point about needing a nice "end-of-the-line" facility, while I thing a light rail route would first need to be build along Grand river, and ending at the CATA station on MSU's campus, a route along Saginaw towards the mall, Meijers and whatever else would also be needed, that would include a nice building to act as a bus station, a mini version of the one downtown would probably be fine.

When it comes to Okemos being more liberal than Delta, I doubt it. Okemos is the worst case of NIMBY's I've ever seen. They have fought every proposed development that somes along, from new neighborhoods to road expansions, to a Wal-Mart. They even fought the township clock tower because they thought it was too tall. Delta seems pretty forgiving to new developments, and liberal.

[RustTown]

It depends on what kind of "liberal" you are talking about. And, I don't think that has much to do with it. Actually, it's more of a pro or anti-development attitude, and Okemos is definitely anti-development in almost all cases with a few exceptions, of course.

With that said, the mall-to-mall idea is the most feasible at the moment. Anything else futher out would have to be commuter rail.

[patrickom]

It appears I stand corrected on the issue of Okemos' liberalism.

One other item in relation to an earlier post; the relatively small town of Morgantown (home of West Virginia University) has a people-mover-style system that is fairly popular. I haven't used it, but have heard good things. If anyone knows anything about this, I would be curious to hear how it works (or doesn't).

[hood]

While i'm not familiar with that particular system, there are many like examples accross the country. There are many cities and metros smaller than Lansing that have great light rail systems, and they work very well. Lansing's leaders just aren't that great at chasing state and government money to get things done, they don't even have any real vision for Lansing. They expect and plan for very minimal projects and do nothing to chase larger, more grand developments. If Lansing approached things the way East Lansing has, we would probably already have light rail or be in the process of getting it.

[RustTown]

I'd like to see a smaller metropolitan area smaller than Lansing with light rail. If there really is smaller metros, than they must be much more compact. I really can't think of any. Fill me in.

[hood]

The best example is one in Washington state, the metro is only 330,000. They have apparently already got their first light rail lines and have serious plans to build an extensive light rail system. I'll do a bit more research and post more tonight or tomorrow.

[RustTown]

Do you know if it's Tacoma? If it is, it's part of a much larger metropolitan area (Seattle/Tacoma otherwise known as SeaTac).

[hood]

Nope, I was mistaken, it was a BRT system in Eugene-Springfield Oregon. BRT is essentially a high cost bus system. I've heard it's nearly as expensive and far less efficient than light rail. The Eugene-Springfield metro is ~330,000 people. The first phase is 4 miles and will cost $22 million, 80% of which is being federally funded.

Here is a listing of proposed, existing and under construction light rail systems with their distance, cost, ect.

http://www.lightrail.com/LRTSystems.htm

It appears if Eugene-Springfield would of rather gone light rail it would of cost about $8 million more, seems like it would be well worth it.

[jaredw]

In the election section of LSJ yesterday, Bernero said that he wants to build a trolley that goes from REO Town to Downtown to Old town.

http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A...767/-1/election

[jaredw]

In today's LSJ on the opinion page, there is an article about an entertainment trolley from downtown Lansing to downtown East Lansing. It will be express, 15 minutes each direction. CATA is working on it.

[RustTown]

I just read the opinion piece, but all I took from it was high-speed bus, and the use of the trolley BUSES in between the two downtowns. It wasn't very clear, but I don't think I saw any mention of an actual trolley.

[fisher191]

With the city's budget problems, the 'trolley' will certainly be the trolley buses. They will make strategic stops, and test pilot the program. The city should try to get the main beneficiaries to chip in to make this thing a 'go', instead of talking and talking about it. I think that if the city council could help make this happen, it would be the single biggest thing they could do, to move Lansing forward. It would help every project downtown, connect the disparate sectors of REO and Old Town, add to the overall nightlife, and serve to alleviate future parking problems.

They just need to take that first step. Express bus trolley, bring it, just make the time schedule conducive to the nightlife crowd.

[RustTown]

But, isn't the bus "trolley" kind of a half-baked idea? They might as well just say "express bus" if they are going to use buses. My take is if I want to legitimate light rail, taking a bus and calling it a trolley is just a poor marketing ploy, IMO. I mean, if you're not going to work dilligently to put together something real, than you probably shouldn't be doing it at all.

Plus, there are already shuttles from East Lansing dorms to certain nightspots downtown, and on certain events. The only way to make this work, IMO, is to do it right the first time, or at least lay the foundation for getting a legitimate light rail/trolley line. It's going to take federal, state, and local dollars to get it done, but there is no reason why it couldn't work. It may take more time than any of us want, but that's no excuse not work towards it. IMO, the hokey "trolley bus" is kind of cheesy and insulting to a great transist system that could support a trolley line.

CATA has the second highest ridership of any system in the entire State of Michigan, and Grand Rapids is further along in their plans for light rail than we are. That's really kind of shameful. This city sits on wealths of potential that many other smaller cities would envy if we realized the potential. We have to quit thinking "small town."

[fisher191]

Definetly the argument of whether to take a baby step, or wait until you can leap.

I think the reality is that the city and the new mayor definetly are going to want to put some results on the board, I do agree that the trolley bus is lame, but as a business owner making a gamble on downtown, I know of several other owners struggling, they want and need results now, not 5 years from now. The commercial associations, Old Town Commercial Association and REO, even PSD, their criticism from the owners is that they need more people brought or attracted in. Especially the business that are on the edge trying to change the make up. Relish, October Moon, Absolute Gallery, and Gone 2 the Dogs are the boutiques that could make a district prosper, but they have to struggle until prosperity arrives.

The one good argument for the trolley bus, is that most do recognize its cheesy, but puts emphasis on that someday it should be a real trolley. If the city were flush with money they could just undertake the whole gig and go for it, but testing the water is a start and can help things now. If you call it an express bus, that's all it will ever be, a bus.

The mayor and city council would earn huge props from the business owners to set this up, it shows them doing something, and something tangible. Boost the nightlife, and boost the energy and emphasis, don't just cater to the kids, those shuttles don't seem like they are available to everyone. I would love to ride the trolley/express bus from downtown, after a meal at Majority, get dropped in East Lansing to go to Barnes and Noble to get the latest Detroit Hour magazine, get an ice cream cone from Melting Moments, then hop the Trolley back to the Green Door for a drink, then hop it back downtown to my loft. No paying to park in East Lansing, no DUI, quick and easy, no looking for a spot in downtown to park.

[RustTown]

Yeah, like you said, it's really a question of waiting until everything's in place and then springing it on the public, or taking smaller steps to build critical mass. I guess thinking about it further, it certainly wouldn't hurt anything to have the trolley bus connecting a few sites. Actually, it could do nothing but help assure and increase ridership for the REAL trolley line in the future, I guess.

My question is, is this simply going to be a shuttle that would get trapped in traffic like every other vehicle on the road, or is this the high-speed bus system that they have in a few other cities where they get dedicated lanes and the lights are timed for them?