Virginia Beach Stores, Retail, and Restaurants

[scm]

But, opinion related- I still think the decor is cold. At least at the Springfield location.

Funny you mention that -- it is a signature, with the corrugated metal walls, and the varnished wood and metal collages. Every store is different. Just goes to show that taste is an incredibly individual matter.

Guess it comes from growing up on Mexican food -- I love the meat choices at Chipotle -- real pork carnitas, and beef barbacoa (shredded stewed beef). Moe's has tofu tacos, for pete's sake! Shows how Mexican food has evolved from its Southwestern roots, and can be almost anything that appeals to folks. Even Taco Bell!

I just will never get used to the "white sauce" thing. My wife calls it "toe sauce", because if you put it up to your nose, it smells like toes. I stopped raging about the sacrilige this was, serving this "stuff" at a Mexican restaurant, and only in Virginia would they do such thing -- "real" Mexican restaurants would never serve anything like that. Well, last fall we go to Austin -- go to Chuy's, one of my faves. Chips come -- two bowls of "salsa" -- one with fire roasted tomatoes, the other - you guessed it, "white" sauce! But, in a deference to Texan tastes, they did appear to add something, probably pureed chipotles to give it a little kick. So, even close to the roots, Mexican food does evolve.

[willy]

Has anyone been to GUADALAJARA?

Yep, and will never spend another dime in any of them.

[vdogg]

Yep, and will never spend another dime in any of them.

Care to elaborate any? I'm guessing this was a bad experience?

[scm]

Care to elaborate any? I'm guessing this was a bad experience?

I can't speak for Willy, but we tried Guadalajara last month after a one year lay-off. Obviously, they are very successful delivering their formula -- fun times, plenty of high margin alcohol, and mediocre food. That said, their success speak volumes to the fact they don't have to cater to me. Every Mexican restaurant in HR tries the same formula (and has the same menu!) -- only Guadalajara has succeeded to the level they have.

The menu is uninventive -- look at this menu and this one -- both large volume chains, not holes in the wall only catering to purists -- for what Guadalajara could be. The food is boring (probably related to the limited menu), and seems to mostly come out of a can. The presentation lacks any imagination -- but again, it works for them, so the fact that like Willy, I won't spend another dime, probably doesn't make any difference at all.

[metalman]

I'm honestly asking this quiestion now,

What Mexican restaurants have different, inventive or better dish than the restaurants we know of? And, what are those dishes?

From what I have come to know and love as Mexican food seems to use the same dozen ingredients in different combinations and they call it a different thing. Which, I don't mind. But it's in a torilla shell (hard or soft) you have or meat, onions, peppers, a tomato based sause, cheese, beans, lettuce and if you're daring, you'll have gaucamole or mole.

If you put those ingredients in a hard shell you have a taco, if you rap them up you have a burrito, if you cook them on a cast iron skillet you have fatitas, if you take the burrito-deep fry it and put the cheese and sauce on top you have a chimichanga (beans on the side), Now if you deep fry the pepper with cheese, that's a chile relleno (beans, lettuce, tomato, and gauc on the side), and if you just want the tortilla and cheese, that's a grilled cheese sandwich... or quesodilla.

Like I said, I love mexican food but it seems like different arrangments of the same ingredients.

Or, is it that there is a far greater Mexican cuisine out there and the big chain restaurants and local Mid-Atlanitic Mexican eateries only provide us the tip of the iceberg?

[adctvmonkey]

There's a restaurant here in DC that's called El Tamarindo which is a mix of Mexican and El Salvadoran cuisine. It's very popular and most consider it authentic. On top of usual stuff, they seem to incorporate alot of seafood and have a variety of egg dishes along with others like tenderloin served with shrimp, rice and beans. The menu is very large. It doesn't have its own website, but there's alot of reviews on it, and here's the menu.

I think good Mexican has to do with quality and the types of ingredients that enhance the usual ingredients and the different combinations they can be offered in.

[vaceltic]

Fried sea bass for $12.95?!!! Thats an unheard of low price for that kind of fish.

[scm]

Or, is it that there is a far greater Mexican cuisine out there and the big chain restaurants and local Mid-Atlanitic Mexican eateries only provide us the tip of the iceberg?

Well, we could start with the definition of "meat" (the stuff that goes in the burrito, taco, enchilada, etc) -- if it is beef, it could be picadillo -- ground beef with small cubes of potato, it could be carne guisada -- beef cubes stewed and served in a rich gravy, could be carne asada -- sirloin, spiced and cooked over an open flame, then chunked, could be stewed and shredded (very typical of Sonoran, i.e. Arizona or California-mex), could be machaca -- originally shredded from reconstituted dried beef, now roasted and shredded. If it is pork, most likely carnitas -- slow roasted for 8-12 hours to break down the collagen, then chunked and browned with some of the roasting liquid added back. Wonderful dish is cochinita pibil from the Yucatan -- pork rubbed with annato, then roasted in a covered pit, encased in banana leaves. Chicken -- boiled with spices, then shredded. Fajitas -- either beef or chicken, are never cooked in a pan, but are always grilled over an open flame, then cut into strips -- fajitas were a way for vaqueros to use the "skirt" (faja in Spanish, reduced to the diminutive by the addition of -ita) which the butchers had no demand for. We won't even get in to the weirder things like cabrito, barbacoa de cabeza, lengua, menudo ........

Then, what is the enchilada sauce? Traditional tex-mex is actually a gravy (flour, fat and water) with chile powder and cumin added. This is usually used on beef or cheese enchiladas. My favorites are a green sauce made with tomatillos or a sour cream sauce, either served over chicken. California enchilada sauce usually starts with ancho chiles (dried poblanos -- the chile relleno chile), pan seared, pureed with water added. This thin sauce is also made in a green version made popular with the green chiles from Hatch, New Mexico. Another favorite over chicken enchiladas is a mole sauce -- made from ground chiles, nuts, and chocolate. Avocado mole is known as guacamole.

How are the enchiladas assembled? White or yellow corn tortillas rolled around the filling, or blue corn, stacked, with a fried egg on the top? If the tacos are hard shelled, are the shells uniform, like the ones you buy in the store? Means they aren't fresh. If they are uneven, like at Diego's at the north end of Independance, then they are fried to order from fresh corn tortillas. (Diego's also has machaca!)

What are the beans on the side? Black, ranchero (whole pintos cooked with chiles and onions), borracho (pintos cooked in beer), or refried? If they are refried, were they cooked whole in the restaurant, then mashed with lard added, or spooned out of a can?

Are tamales on the menu? At my house, Christmas Eve always features tamales by the dozen.

Is the guacamole made daily from whole avocados, or is it squeezed out of a bag? Are the salsas made fresh, or poured from a can? Do they contain identifiable chunks of fresh tomato, jalapenos, onions and cilantro -- then they are fresh. I have never seen fresh salsa, called pico de gallo (rooster's beak) at Guadalajara or Plaza Azteca. I also suspect that everything in both of those places that possibly comes from a can, does.

If you really want to see the depth of Mexican food, then watch Rick Bayless' Mexico: One Plate at a Time now running on PBS. Sorry to get on my soap box -- you asked for it

Edited August 24, 2007 by scm

[metalman]

I got it!

SCM, you should open our next Mexican restaurant here. Sounds like you know your sh*t! You wouldn't be Mexican by chance?

Thanks for the education.

Now let me tell you about Italian food....

[scm]

SCM, you should open our next Mexican restaurant here.

No hay posible! Guadalajara is successful here for a reason.

Let me draw a parallel -- I spent three months in Northern Italy in 1999. Lived above a restaurant in a one-bedroom apt -- ate lunch every day in the company lunch room. Ate in the restaurant six nights a week. Fell in love with the real Italian meal construction -- primi (usually pasta, but could be risotto or soup), secondi (small serving of meat) and contorni (side dish, almost always some kind of vegetable). Was talking to a college friend who owns one of the most successful Italian restaurants in Dallas about why American Italian restaurants don't serve that way. He recommended I watch a movie with the Tucci brothers called "The Big Night" about the gap between what Americans expect in an Italian restaurant, and what Italians expect. Richard had a great line -- "Italians would no more eat only pasta for dinner than Americans would eat just mashed potatoes." BUT, and it is a big BUT, he also said, "I don't have enough money to suffer the losses it would take to change peoples minds".

And that is the same problem here. Guadalajara and Plaza Azteca are full of people that don't know the difference between picodillo and pico de gallo -- that think that an enchirito is a Mexican dish. They want big drinks, noise, and something not too different from what they expect. All too often, what they expect is Taco Bell on a plate.

Look at the wreckage of "better" Mexican food places here -- Baja Fresh (admittedly, it died for multiple reasons), Pancho Villa's (was the best Mexican food in HR)....... Rio Grande Cafe failed in Richmond.

If ever go to Austin for SXSW, I'll give you a list of places so you can see what you are missing.

[Sky06]

Fell in love with the real Italian meal construction -- primi (usually pasta, but could be risotto or soup), secondi (small serving of meat) and contorni (side dish, almost always some kind of vegetable). Was talking to a college friend who owns one of the most successful Italian restaurants in Dallas about why American Italian restaurants don't serve that way.

I just got back from a wonderful 2-week vacation mainly in Tuscany and Northern Italy. So let me me take a stab at that question.

Americans don't want multiple courses because they are constantly in a hurry. Italians and other Europeans take their time, pretty much spending all night at a restaurant. We have to have everything now and all at once. I did the 2-course meal a few times and loved it, although sharing helps you avoid overeating. But a little espresso, Gelato, or Grappa goes a long way to round out the evening.

[scm]

I just got back from a wonderful 2-week vacation mainly in Tuscany and Northern Italy. So let me me take a stab at that question.

Americans don't want multiple courses because they are constantly in a hurry. Italians and other Europeans take their time, pretty much spending all night at a restaurant.

Ahhh, Northern Italy -- our goal is to buy a house somewhere in the Veneto, in the triangle defined by Verona, Vicenza, and Mantua, then spend April to October there after we retire. What did you think of the place?

I had the good fortune to live in Germany for three years, so I got to observe the whole restaurant thing closely, and there are many angles to what you are talking about -- and the Americans being in a hurry part is low on the totem pole. First, the economics are completely different. Restaurants are able to make a profit it you stay at the table all night -- because you just might. Wait staff isn't in a hurry to turn you, because they aren't paid from tips. They get a salary, just like any other professional -- they don't expect to make it off your tips, so they don't have an incentive to move you on. If you stay, you will pay for every beer, every soft drink, every cup of coffee -- but you can stay forever. When you get a table at a restaurant in Europe, they don't plan on anyone else sitting there all night.

That said, there are plenty of places to eat quickly in Europe -- the Autogrills on the Autostradas in Italy chief among them. McDs all over France -- in fact, #1 market penetration (as measured by McDs per capita) in Europe. So not every meal out in Europe is an all evening deal. They just don't expect to dine, then do something else -- they are already doing the something else. The Italians have a saying -- "Il dolce far niente" -- the sweet art of nothingness. It describes the magical feeling that comes from the enjoyment of the company of friends, facillitated by good food and drink. Note that the food and drink are secondary -- they just enable the enjoyment. The Europeans don't really live that much differently than we do (well, except for the fact that there are no stores open on Sunday anywhere in Germany!) -- but they do have different attitudes towards food, and its purpose.

[hoobo]

I disagree that authentic Mexican eateries can't make it in HR. People are willing to spend on food as demonstrated by the success of TC eateries not to mention local places along Granby, Colley, and throughout VB. What people aren't willing to do is spend $8 on fast food (Baja Fresh) or on high-priced, not-spectacular Mexican. If HR can transition from $8 Olive Garden to $15 Macaroni Grill, they can go from $7 El Azteca to $14 quality. I believe an El Torito type place would thrive in HR. It's not the greatest but it's better than drown our food in sauces so no one will notice how bad it is Mexican joints. If you bring an El Ranchito ($10) or Taco Rosa ($15), I'm sure with their prices and quality of food, they would be successful especially at TC or Downtown. (Google all three with Newport Beach if you want to see their menus) Good reviews and good word of mouth will get people coming.

As for Italian style eating, Buca di Beppo and Magiano's have the ability to change how we eat by promoting family style meals (4 person bowl of pasta, 4 piece serving of chicken, 4 person veggie serving, etc.) American culture can be changed. Starbucks is the best example. Their coffee is horrible but people linger for hours talking or doing homework in their stores. When they started, there were a couple hundred coffee shops in the U.S. with most in NY, SF, and Seattle. Now there are thousands. What I've also seen, is if you bring a better option like Kean Coffee here or Cville Coffee and Mudhouse in Charlottesville, people will gravitate to it in droves.

Edited August 27, 2007 by hoobo

[scm]

I disagree that authentic Mexican eateries can't make it in HR.

As for Italian style eating, Buca di Beppo and Magiano's .....

I'm not quite as sanguine as you are hoobo, about the attractiveness of HR to national restaurant chains. Chipotle is growing like a weed since their IPO, they are ninety miles up the road, yet won't come here (I know -- I've asked!). Both Buca and Maggiano's are in markets smaller than HR, but aren't here. I have to think it is related to the refusal, so far, of Whole Foods to come here. All of these national operations can slice and dice demographics to the nth degree. There is an interesting concept called "Prizm clusters" that group neighbors by lifestyles, the thinking being that "birds of a feather flock together" (you can find more here). I am certain all of these national marketers looked at their target demographics, based on where their best stores are, then look at HR and don't see the demographic slices that give them the confidence they need to make multi-million dollar investments. If they thought they could get the yields they need, they would be here. Something is telling them they won't.

Also not convinced decent (not good, just decent) Mexican works here -- if it did, Pancho Villa's would still be open, even at the expense of yet another Guad. As far as Baja Fresh goes, I don't remember the fish taco plate being over $6. I also think that people didn't give them credit for having fresh everything in the place -- they compared it to Taco Bell, and it lost. Kinda like the difference between Subway and Quizno's -- you get what you pay for.

P.S. -- I'd love for Maggiano's to open here -- that way we would also get a Corner Bakery!

[vdogg]

I was under the impression that whole foods wanted to enter the City Walk development, but Divaris and Co. Weren't too keen on it. I think it had to do with the fact that whole foods wanted a standalone store, but that was not the type of store they were looking for (I guess they wanted to incorporate the store in a more urban development). There was actually an article on this sometime back. Word is that they are still looking at the area, though perhaps not in that particular locale.

[hoobo]

scm, I'm saying $8 based on salad/burrito platters w/tax. So can call it in the middle and say $7. I always spend $9 at Baja Fresh and La Salsa. DOn't know how. Rubio's is the much better deal to me in terms of cost and quality. Anyway, it's hard to change perception when the fast food place is close in price to the sit-down restaurant and much more than 3 tacos at the Bell. But it's not impossible. No one balks at paying high burger prices at Wendy's or Hardee's despite the <$1 McD's burgers. Still, I think Baja Fresh, Chipotles, and other fast food/fast casual places will have a harder time penetrating the market than sit-down places because the HR perception of what fast food should be. I still believe TC and downtown have changed HR's resistance to higher priced mass-market restaurants (as opposed to gourmet niche market places and fast food).

You keep bringing up Pancho Villa's. I have never heard of that place. Why have I heard of Coastal Grille, Havana, Jurich's, etc. but not Pancho's? Something must have been missing in its word of mouth or restaurant critic review that caused the public not to know of the the place. Restaurants are the worst business. That's why banks don't give them loans. If you don't have that good review, it doesn't matter how many regulars you have, you will never have enough random diners to sustain the business. Heck, the old Bobbywood closed because the Bobby Huber was tired and Duck-In closed because they were offered a ton for their land. As you've said, people go to the garish Guad's for the atmosphere and the margaritas. Everyone knows the food blows. I truly believe a Baja-style (fish and lobster) CPK/Cheesecake-level ($10-15) Mex place will work in HR. Just make sure people hear of it and put it in a place like Shore Drive, the Strip, or TC (also Downtown and NN).

[scm]

Rubio's is the much better deal to me in terms of cost and quality.

Disaster warning -- earthquakes to follow! We are in complete agreement on something. Rubio's rocks! They made fish tacos what they are today. Actually, the fish tacos at Pelon's or Gringo's Taqueria on Norfolk Ave. (boy, if you think BF was high, you will have a heart attack in that place) are a suitable alternative since BF closed.

You keep bringing up Pancho Villa's. I have never heard of that place. Why have I heard of Coastal Grille, Havana, Jurich's, etc. but not Pancho's?

Must be that Great Neck crowd you grew up around. I actually so don't get Coastal Grille. Tried it twice -- never went back. For that type, Terrapin is so much better. You have to try it the next time you are home. Had dinner at the bar there Saturday night -- bar menu, three courses for $28, and $4 quartinos of bottle wine!

PV's was at the corner of Laskin and Birdneck, little south of GN. I don't think of it in the same caliber as Todd's -- think of it more as a Mexican version of its neighbors -- 501, Bella Monte, etc. I don't know why they closed -- but I do know they had a better menu, better presentation, and just better food than Guad's or Plaza Azteca. And even though they aren't in VB, the Mi Hogars are decent. One on Granby, just south of DePaul and the other on Military Highway.

Edited August 28, 2007 by scm

[hoobo]

Must be that Great Neck crowd you grew up around. I actually so don't get Coastal Grille. Tried it twice -- never went back. For that type, Terrapin is so much better. You have to try it the next time you are home. Had dinner at the bar there Saturday night -- bar menu, three courses for $28, and $4 quartinos of bottle wine!

PV's was at the corner of Laskin and Birdneck, little south of GN. I don't think of it in the same caliber as Todd's -- think of it more as a Mexican version of its neighbors -- 501, Bella Monte, etc....the Mi Hogars are decent.

Yup. Went to Coastal a couple times because one of our friends worked there in high school. It helps when you get a discount and don't have to spend on liquor. Hm, the location of PV seems like it would have been good. And I have heard of its neighbors. Like I said, restaurants are the worst business. Even good ones fail for whatever reason: over-extended themselves on credit cards, over-optimistic on revenue, one bad review, building owner wants them out, etc. Anyway, I gotta try your recommendations when I'm back in town. I've maxed out the seafood joints (as much as I love Bubba's and LaVerne's), don't care much for chain-land, and Taste Unlimited's sandwiches aren't what they used to be. I also need a good barbecue place closer than Pierce's.

[Former Resident of HR]

There was an article today in the road warrior's column about Red Mills Commons and how it has no sidewalks. It's actually one of the worst new put together strip malls in my opinion. It just looks cheap and like they cut every corner they could. I guess that they have a captive audience so who cares?

Anyway, there was a blurb at the end of the article about how there is going to be a new Target going up there. Kind of interesting. Anyone know any details? Maybe a Supertarget to go toe to toe with the Super Walmart?

Here's the link: http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?...&ran=124595

OK update here... so digging a little deeper I see that Red Mill Commons has won design awards and was voted "best of the beach" in 06. Must have been because it was new. Not that I am a fan of strip malls, but I think there nicer looking places in VB by far. Even the Haygood Center's facelift includes bricks and sidewalks through the parking lot. Maybe I am on another planet but I have always thought that RMC looks like some cheap stucco strip mall you would find in So Cal or Florida. This is Virginia, where are all the bricks???

Edited September 14, 2007 by JPN0731

[urbanvb]

yeah its a supertarget. I have been to the center. Its really not all that different than other drive up strip malls except the facades are beefed up a bit.

Edited September 14, 2007 by urbanvb

[Former Resident of HR]

What do you mean "yeah it's a supertarget"? It's not even built yet... You have info or ??

[urbanvb]

Well a ST is being built I should say or so I heard from a coworker who lives out that way.

Edited September 15, 2007 by urbanvb

[scm]

I disagree that authentic Mexican eateries can't make it in HR.

I take no satisfaction in reporting yet another example of the doubtful prospects for quality Mexican restaurants in HR -- Diego's Taco Shop on Independance, across from the Haygood shopping center has closed its doors.

Diego's occupied that unique niche that is ubiquitious in SoCal -- the quick casual taco shop, often open till the wee hours. Their food, limited menu that it was, was prepared with soul -- their heart was evident in ever paper plate of tacos, tortas, or burritos.

It is a tragedy that the "plated Taco Bell" places survive, and Diego's dies. They had a good two year run.

[hoobo]

So I was wrong.

Personally, I wouldn't eat there nor would I eat at a mom&pop casual taco stand here in SoCal. I know plenty of people here who wouldn't eat at hole-in-the-wall Mexican joints. Same goes for burger and Chinese places. It's the perception of cleanliness. It also doesn't help that my friends and I got the runs every time we ate at the Taco Bell that used to occupy the space. Never at any other Taco Hell.

[urbanvb]

Kohls to open at Beachs Landstown Commons

Phase one of Landstown Commons in Virginia Beach, under construction by Florida developer The Goodman Co., debuts Oct. 4 with the opening of a Kohls department store. Word has circulated that Trader Joes, billed as your neighborhood grocery store, is contemplating opening a store in Landstown Commons. “We would love to have them here, but they have a lot of internal work to do,” Ross said.

Edited September 18, 2007 by urbanvb