The end of New Orleans?

[johnnydr87]

If I see a man carrying a trash can full of Ladies' Foot Locker merchandise, that doesn't cut it as stealing for survival IMHO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed.

Quote from CNN News:

'Desperate SOS' for New Orleans

CNN's Chris Lawrence described "many, many" bodies, inside and outside the facility on New Orleans' Riverwalk. (Watch the report of people living among the dead on the riverfront -- 4:36 )

"There are multiple people dying at the convention center," Lawrence said. "There was an old woman, dead in a wheelchair with a blanket draped over her, pushed up against a wall. Horrible, horrible conditions.

"We saw a man who went into a seizure, literally dying right in front of us."

In a statement Thursday, Nagin said that "the convention center is unsanitary and unsafe and we are running out of supplies for (15,000 to 20,000) people."

He said the city would allow people to march up the Crescent City Connection to the Westbank Expressway in an effort to find help.

People were "being forced to live like animals," Lawrence said, surrounded by piles of trash and feces.

He said thousands of people were just laying in the ground outside the building -- many old, or sick, or caring for infants and small children.

Video from the scene showed a group chanting 'we want help, we want help,' as mothers tried to console their tired and hungry children.

More people were arriving at the center, walking south along Canal Street. The route north to the Superdome is blocked by chest-deep water.

The convention center was used as a secondary shelter when the Louisiana Superdome was overwhelmed.

As reports indicated a mounting death toll in New Orleans, U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu said that "we understand there are thousands of dead people" in Louisiana, according to media reports.

Can you imagine if these people were upper class white or middle class white? I mean, come on people. Sure it's hard to admit.

Anyways, I'm not going to access this site for a while (hopefully). I have to write a major essay for school tonight.

[johnnydr87]

Well said, man. I think you misunderstood my last sentence of my previous post. I have been impressed with how Bush is handling the situation now, but I was responding to the political hacks who want to blame Bush for everything, including the disaster today. I was referring to the fact that many other local and state governments have more responsibility for what has taken place (flooding) than Bush and his administration. Again, good post!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And you're doing just the reverse, acting as if Bush isn't liable for anything. Please.

I already stated in my previous post that Bush wasn't the only one at fault.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

And you're doing just the reverse, acting as if Bush isn't liable for anything.  Please.

I already stated in my previous post that Bush wasn't the only one at fault.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Blaming Bush whatsoever is like blaming him for this scenario (let me make something up)...

"No Child Left Behind insisted that little Suzie's school divert as much funds as neccessary to raise standardized test scores. They did so and therefore her bus route was cut since she was the only student that rode it to her rural street so she was forced to walk home after being dropped off by her mom. One day she was walking home and got hit by an 18-wheeler. President Bush killed little Suzie."

WHAT THE HELL. Don't blame him for little Suzie who couldn't walk her 5th grade @$$ on the sidewalk and don't blame him for inadequate funding and thought going into the design of NO and its levees or any other financial problems. The Iraq War didn't create Katrina and neither did Bush and I truly, honestly beleive he is doing all that he can to help solve the problems. I am the LAST person to say I approve of anything Bush or like him, but I will give him credit when it is due.

[monsoon]

  Good night, we just can't get over our petty differences to focus on the task at hand?! This country is in serious trouble if people are going to resort to comments like this whenever something bad happens.

You want to talk politics? How about the complete incompetance of the NO and LA leadership? Did you know that it took them several days before declaring martial law?!?!? When Hugo came in '89, martial law was declared the very next day to prevent looting! And it worked!!!! How about the incompetance of city and state leaders in getting adequate levees built? Like it or not, that is a LOCAL concern and it is up to local leaders to initiate it. Look at my hometown's Cooper River bridge...the majority of the initiative and funding was from city and state leadership. NO and LA leaders knew for years that they needed better levees, and there was not a push to get it done. Now, they are paying for their sheer incompetance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gladly, but first get your facts straight. Martial Law was not declared during Hurricane Hugo. The last time it was used was in 1941 in Hawaii Pearl Harbor. They didn't even use it after 9/11.

According to the Constitution, only Congress has the right to suspend the writ of habeas corpus and place civilians under Military Rule which is what Martial Law is. Subsequent court rulings have given the President the ability to declare martial law when emergencies require it. In the case of Louisiana there is no legal precident to allow the governer to have the same authority hence the delay that you are referring to.

Bush had it in his power to immediately cut his vacation short on Sunday when this disaster was occuring insteading of waiting until yesterday to finally ended his time off from "leading the people". He could have immediately imposed martial law and got troops in there days ago.

Instead, we get a fly over in air force one and a tea party with Clinton and Bush Sr. His big act the day after the storm was to give a speech on the importance of fighting his war in Iraq. He has completely dropped the ball in this case.

And the Republican controlled congress is no where to be seen. In fact the leader of the House today said that he thought the whole mess should just be bulldozed under and questioned the expense of rebuilding NO. But he is glad to vote for billions to go to Iraq.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

"And the Republican controlled congress is no where to be seen. In fact the leader of the House today said that he thought the whole mess should just be bulldozed under and questioned the expense of rebuilding NO. But he is glad to vote for billions to go to Iraq. "

What exactly do you think is going to happen? With the exception of high rise buildings and those not flooded, they'll have to be demolished due to mold growth and other sanitary reasons. The French Quarter is still salvageable, but anyone who has more than 5 feet of water in their homes can kiss it goodbye because they'll likely be condemned.

You also make it sound as though Bush is off in his own world at Crawford? (maybe he is in the Oval Office, but that's not for me to say) He is still well connected to the outside world and all of his cabinet members 24/7.

His speech was a little off-kilter, but everone knows this is something he's hoping to draw up his poll numbers and throwing in Iraq is something he does regardless of the speech.

If I can honestly blame one individual person outside Mother Nature (the b*tch that she is)... I blame the LA governor for it. But that goes without saying. At least Bush is doing something, she has, as far as I can tell from her innumerable appearances on CNN, NBC, ABC etc, done nothing. The saddest part is, these are the people in her state. If she's up for reelection I pray she's voted out swiftly.

[johnnydr87]

Excuse me sirs, but the federal government is in charge of mobilizing the army. They are in charge of mobilizing the national guard.

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Anderson-...elp-Katrina.wmv

The people are asking, where is the federal government?

And, tell me, what specifically do you disapprove of the local government's handling of the situation? It's not like they can order national guard units to airdrop food.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

Excuse me sirs, but the federal government is in charge of mobilizing the army.  They are in charge of mobilizing the national guard.

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Anderson-...elp-Katrina.wmv

The people are asking, where is the federal government?

And, tell me, what specifically do you disapprove of the local government's handling of the situation?  It's not like they can order national guard units to airdrop food.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are absolutely right... they can't do that.

They could have:

Had better evacuation plans available.

Initiated contraflow throughout the state.

Evacuated those who couldn't leave to points outside New Orleans (it's what they're doing now, so they clearly could've a week ago).

Built suitable and effective levees in the first place (their responsibility, sorry).

Coordinated with surrounding states (i.e. Arkansas and Texas) and gotten aid.

There was a lot that could've been done. Instead, local and state leaders essentially said "get the hell out and good luck on your merry way. Go to the Superdome." Great planning.

[johnnydr87]

You are absolutely right... they can't do that.

They could have:

Had better evacuation plans available.

Initiated contraflow throughout the state.

Evacuated those who couldn't leave to points outside New Orleans (it's what they're doing now, so they clearly could've a week ago).

Built suitable and effective levees in the first place (their responsibility, sorry).

Coordinated with surrounding states (i.e. Arkansas and Texas) and gotten aid.

There was a lot that could've been done.

[MAJIKMAN]

Hey PeninsulaKiddo. You are takin' this a bit out of context. To say that we can't blame Bush for everything is right. We can't blame him for the weather or the cities levees. We can blame him for Iraq though, 'cause he took us there. But that is another subject all together different. Sense he is the CEO of this country he should have been on top of this. Yeah, yeah I know you are gonna say he declared them a natural disaster even before the storm hit. But hell its taken him 2

days (after seeing the looting, people in unsanitary conditions, people who are needing food and water, and seeing everything get out of control) to send the military down there. I know that these things take time, BUT DAM.

[johnnydr87]

You know what, I'll just state I'm very please how my local government is helping the situation, especially Governor Huckabee.

From the Arkansas Times Blog:

Stop the presses

Just back from Gov. Huckabee's news conference on Arkansas disaster response. He says we've never said anything nice about him.

There are one or two exceptions, at least. This is one of them.

The governor is a far better speaker, far more assured and far less clueless in the face of an immense problem with unbelievable human dimensions than George W. Bush, who's been universiity, and justifiably, ripped for his Katrina performance.

Maybe it's because he's a fireman's son, but Huckabee has always had an ability to fiddle with the levers of government. He seems to have a real interest, knack even, in tinkering with the gears. (Not always in ways I might like, admittedly.) He demonstrated that facility today.

Not a lot immensely earth-shaking was announced: 1) Formation of Operate KARE (Katrina Assistance Relief Effort) to try to register evacuees setting up temporary homes in Arkansas as a base for extending the help they need; 2) establishment of a KARE Fund, send money to that fund in care of the governor's office; 3) a website due to go up tomorrow, www.kare.ar.gov that will compile all relevant information about medical care, schools, assistance, even things to do of a recreational nature.

No flyspeck intended by our citing of an absence of huge news developments. State government is at work. The cabinet was assembled for questions. John Selig from DHS has a plan to register Louisiana Medicaid patients. Richard Weiss from DFA said it's a good thing we haven't given our surplus away. Education officials said they were prepared for an influx of students (though the money to educate them could eventually become a large amount). Huckabee said he was not worried about money right now; he said human needs were paramount. He mentioned the Golden Rule. It was a performance worthy of Bill Clinton in all the good ways.

Applause line: In response to our question, Huckabee said he'd welcome the use of Fort Chaffee as a temporary residence for up to 4,000 people. It's fully equipped and ready. He also said Arkansas had identified some 10,000 beds for travelers. He acknowledged the huge problem of people not only without shelter but without money.

NOW THIS CHANGE OF TONE: It became apparent from Huckabee's answer to my question and to further questioning of Wayne Ruthven, the state's emergency services head, that Arkansas had no formal plan for dealing with a mass exodus from a Gulf Coast disaster. It has worked with federal officials on hurricane planning, yes, but a coordinated plan considering everything from food, water and shelter to schools, medical care, addiitional burdens on local law enforcements and social service agencies, etc. did not exist. So the response is being developed on the fly. It's some testament to Huckabee's skills that it seems to be proceeding fairly smoothly. Of of course, we benefit from having to deal with no obstacles such as flood waters, massive destruction and looting. Arkansas is probably not alone in its lack of such planning. That doesn't mean we couldn't, or shouldn't, do better.

But you have to give high marks to the shirt-sleeved Huckabee, the very image of a leader ready to roll up those sleeves to do the state's business -- unlike the bumbling, stumbling president. (I'll even give the governor a day pass for dreaming up a state security exemption as an excuse for not releasing written documents about mass Gulf Coast disaster preparedness when I asked if I could see them. The better excuse is the likely explanation that such documents don't exist.)

[johnnydr87]

So it WAS the federal government's duty to better the NO levees. Oh my, even I didn't know that. That certainly hurts Mr. Bush's leadership credibility:

A year ago the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers proposed to study how New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane, but the Bush administration ordered that the research not be undertaken. After a flood killed six people in 1995, Congress created the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, in which the Corps of Engineers strengthened and renovated levees and pumping stations. In early 2001, the Federal Emergency Management Agency issued a report stating that a hurricane striking New Orleans was one of the three most likely disasters in the U.S., including a terrorist attack on New York City. But by 2003 the federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up as it was drained into the Iraq war. In 2004, the Bush administration cut funding requested by the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers for holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain by more than 80 percent. Additional cuts at the beginning of this year (for a total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001) forced the New Orleans district of the Corps to impose a hiring freeze. The Senate had debated adding funds for fixing New Orleans' levees, but it was too late.

Oh, and this is funny. Republican Governor Mike Huckabee warned the President in July that if there were a natural disaster, Arkansas would be in trouble, because its remaining national guard was stretched so thin:

Politicians of both parties have sounded warnings for some time, but true leadership on readying for disaster has been lacking. And so the images from New Orleans this week have recalled not only the panic of 9/11 in New York City but the chaos of April 2003 in Baghdad after the United States ousted Saddam Hussein - and the looters took charge.

There was warning from on high but not much doing. On July 16, Gov. Mike Huckabee, Republican of Arkansas and new chairman of the National Governors Association, took note of heavy deployments of state National Guard units to Iraq. "If we had a major natural disaster, we would be stretched thin," he warned. "All governors right now are worried about the long-term impact of long deployment."

So in conclusion, a lot of this is Mr. Bush's fault.

[johnnydr87]

And yet another article. Don't worry folks, these have been scaled down. No forum violations here.

In this article, the New Orleans CityBusiness paper talks about all the cuts to local government, and even hypothesizes what would happen if a natural disaster were to occur. Sounds a bit like an omen....

Well umm yeah this violates forum rules. Aside from the forum rules, don't make this a battle of the dueling news articles.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

A prophetic series of quotes, I must say.

One quote in particular. It's a matter of life and death. There's a great deal of both in the New Orleans/Gulfport/Biloxi area right now, the latter in particular.

This is not the end of the city, I doubt that highly. I hope though that in the future, residents of the city and area will look back on this with disdain and disbelief. Incomprehensible; they won't believe that the city could decay to the levels it is at right now. I know that a scenario like that is perhaps more than a decade off; things won't heal themselves overnight, but this is just incomprehensible. I think that in shifting blame between political parties (though I am guilty and I still hold my grudge against the LA Governor) is doing nothing but degrading the real plight in the Gulf Coast region; the plight of those who are dying. Whether or not you agree with that, y'all must agree that political discussions are off-topic and tend to become unneccessarily heated. They're unrelated to "the end of New Orleans", which I'm doubtful this is. Maybe the end to the crime-ridden and stereotyped and underappreciated New Orleans that we've known, but hopefully it'll be something different and much better. It looks grim... and it is, but I hope (hope...) that in some matter of years we'll be back to discussing the next grand high-rise proposed for the New Orleans' skyline. And that time will eventually come.

[GaryP]

Why should we re-build New Orleans when it will still be below sea level? What is to stop this from happening again? The more I learn about this city the more I cant believe what a mistake it was in the first place. Why should we repeat it?

[johnnydr87]

A prophetic series of quotes, I must say.

One quote in particular.  It's a matter of life and death.  There's a great deal of both in the New Orleans/Gulfport/Biloxi area right now, the latter in particular. 

This is not the end of the city, I doubt that highly.  I hope though that in the future, residents of the city and area will look back on this with disdain and disbelief.  Incomprehensible; they won't believe that the city could decay to the levels it is at right now.  I know that a scenario like that is perhaps more than a decade off; things won't heal themselves overnight, but this is just incomprehensible.  I think that in shifting blame between political parties (though I am guilty and I still hold my grudge against the LA Governor) is doing nothing but degrading the real plight in the Gulf Coast region; the plight of those who are dying.  Whether or not you agree with that, y'all must agree that political discussions are off-topic and tend to become unneccessarily heated.  They're unrelated to "the end of New Orleans", which I'm doubtful this is.  Maybe the end to the crime-ridden and stereotyped and underappreciated New Orleans that we've known, but hopefully it'll be something different and much better.  It looks grim... and it is, but I hope (hope...) that in some matter of years we'll be back to discussing the next grand high-rise proposed for the New Orleans' skyline.  And that time will eventually come.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just showed you an article that showed how the federal government was responsible for the levee.

I just showed you an article how the federal government was responsible for the cutbacks in the Army Corp of Engineers and their studies of a CAT 5 hurricane.

I just showed you an article of the Republican governor of Arkansas raising issues about the National Guard being stretched to thin if natural disaster was to strike.

This is your response? Ok then.

I will agree it's a tad off-topic, but only a tad.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

Why should we re-build New Orleans when it will still be below sea level?  What is to stop this from happening again?  The more I learn about this city the more I cant believe what a mistake it was in the first place.  Why should we repeat it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I kinda agree, but then again I don't. New Orleans may have had its fair share of problems, but economically, socially, and architecturally it is very significant. It's a leading center of petroleum products in the USA, and that's just due to geography, not the city establishing itself as an oil center.

I think that when the city is rebuilt it should be done more logically. Build buildings so that the first floor has easy access to floors above it. No one-story buildings with only case-specific exceptions. Have multiple ways in and out of buildings. Improve drainage of the city and install more pumps. There are many ways to safegaurd against this happening again, but it will take a lot of time and a lot of money.

[monsoon]

I just showed you an article that showed how the federal government was responsible for the levee. 

I just showed you an article how the federal government was responsible for the cutbacks in the Army Corp of Engineers and their studies of a CAT 5 hurricane.

I just showed you an article of the Republican governor of Arkansas raising issues about the National Guard being stretched to thin if natural disaster was to strike.

This is your response?  Ok then. 

I will agree it's a tad off-topic, but only a tad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In case you missed it above. Don't post anymore articles. And fix your sig too. It also is too big. 50px height is the max.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

I just showed you an article that showed how the federal government was responsible for the levee. 

I just showed you an article how the federal government was responsible for the cutbacks in the Army Corp of Engineers and their studies of a CAT 5 hurricane.

I just showed you an article of the Republican governor of Arkansas raising issues about the National Guard being stretched to thin if natural disaster was to strike.

This is your response?  Ok then. 

I will agree it's a tad off-topic, but only a tad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My point was that in bickering over the nonsensical politics that led to this we're degrading the deaths of thousands. And frankly, we are.

[johnnydr87]

I never posted a full article, i posted a paraphrase of an article.... How come i got in trouble? You could see the "[...]" indicating whole sections cut out. I actually quoted the Arkansas Blog, which quoted a newspaper.

I didn't know they enacted a 50 px height rule either. Will fix.

[alslex1]

Why should we re-build New Orleans when it will still be below sea level?  What is to stop this from happening again?  The more I learn about this city the more I cant believe what a mistake it was in the first place.  Why should we repeat it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We should rebuild New Orleans for the same reason we rebuild California after an earthquake, Florida after a hurricane or a midwestern town after a tornado. Americans live in these communities, it is our responsibility as Americans to help rebuild them. New Orleans is a great city with history and heritage we can't close it down and forget.

[Spartan]

You've people have got to be kidding me.  The city will be revived and the federal government will play a huge role in it.  The mass rebuilding of the city and I-10 will provide hundreds of jobs and the oil production companies, the power companies, DOT, the city government, hospitals, etc. and ports will have to have employees to work for them.  The tourist industry will still be there and more visitors will probably come to get a glimpse of this city because of this event.  All of these places require employees and employees have to live somewhere.  Its quite illogical to believe that all this will dry up or that one million people will commute from Baton Rouge or from the north side of Lake Pontchartrain on a daily basis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I see one of two things happening after the city is drained, but either way, the city will never exist as we knew it.

1- The city's population will return, life will resume. However, there will be thousands of structures declared inhabitable becuase of the water damage. Those structures plus the ones that have been demolished will be rebuilt with the insurance money.

After Hugo hit Charleston, the houses that were rebuilt we done much better, and uch nicer. This is why the Isle of Palms is a pretty exclusive place. For New Orleans, this could mean a jump in land values. I am not the master of economics here, but it will bean a huge change in the way people live in NO.

2- People will trickle in. The business will return, but the economy will be nothing like what it was. The port is a necessity in the USA, so something will have to go back there.

What major thing has Bush done besides as Bush Sr. and Clinton to ask for some donations?  Sure, he's called out some national guard troops, but who wouldn't?

Also, what exactly does the local government have the resources to do?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're joking right? How about mobilizing the Navy? What else do you want him to do? If he starts to stick his neck into things it will only add more bureacracy to the mix. Let FEMA do what it was designed to do.

FEMA helps the local government. Local governments know the area best, and where to send resources when there are bumps in the road. The Fed does not.

And the Republican controlled congress is no where to be seen.  In fact the leader of the House today said that he thought the whole mess should just be bulldozed under and questioned the expense of rebuilding NO.  But he is glad to vote for billions to go to Iraq.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Congress was in recess. They came back today and the House approved a multi-billion dollar aid package, and the senate will pass it tomorrow.

Dennis Hastert's comments were taken out of context. Just like the media to blow things out of proportion. For the record, he said something like "It looks like alot of the area could be bulldozed." That is not an exact quote, but he did not say "lets bulldoze it." There are more people out there that think that than you realize. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I have heard several intelligent people say the same thing who have never met each other. Its weird.

My only complaint with the response is that the military isn't getting in there fast enough. I know they can't be there immediately, but I don't understand why they can't take soldiers from one of the many bases in the area. The lawlessness in New Orleans is a horrible thing. I would not be suprised if we hear about the military having to kill some of the snipers and gunmen that are in the city.

[DigitalSky]

I have to agree mostly, I can't ever imagine it being the same again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I change my mind, I was being too cynical.

I know it won't be the same again, but there will be a New Orleans, i think it's better to think positive and optimistic

[Spartan]

Also, if you really want to blame someone, blame the idiots who didn't design the levees to withstand a CAT5 to begin with.

[Dale]

Seizing the opportunity to politicize a tragedy, Bush-haters make hay.

In any case, not looking good for a third term.

[RiversideGator]

I like this post from another thread on UP by DerrickKugler:

JAX - man, the levee situation has been around for 40+ years, yet you blame GWB for the problem? Get over your hatred, man... not EVERYTHING is his fault.

Whether or not you agree with his policies, blaming anything to do with Hurricane Katrina on ANY presidential administration, frankly, is just a load of crap.

Why didn't Clinton do something about the levees?

Why didn't Bush the elder do something about the Levees?

How about Reagan?

Carter?

Ford?

Nixon?

Johnson?

Kennedy?

Come on.