Did Bush and the Federal Govt Fail New Orleans

[Gusterfell]

Guster how many hundreds of school busses and NO public transit busses are parked underwater while the carless in New Orleans were left to suffer instead of being bussed out, maybe Nagin and Blanco should lose their jobs?

Why don't we start finding jobs for those affected and stop finding out who's fault it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like I said yesterday, I agree that the mayor and governor should be held responsible for their failures. My point is that the federal officials involved should be likewise. Like it or not, disaster relief is primarily a duty of the federal government, and the fact that these officials have an "R" after their name doesn't make them immune to responsibility.

I agree that helping the victims should be the first priority, but is is also important to find out what went wrong here. If we don't try to "find out who's at fault," we risk another preventable disaster.

[Viper]

I agree that helping the victims should be the first priority, but is is also important to find out what went wrong here.  If we don't try to "find out who's at fault,"  we risk another preventable disaster.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah...bingo and none of us are qualified to figure out what went wrong so why is blame even being passed around like a hot potato?

An investigation is aleady being requested by many high ranking gov officials.

[derrickskugler]

OH... MY... GOD... I swear to God the double standard here is just out-of-hand.

THE BLAME IS SHARED. Can we close this Bush-bash-fest now?

The reason why Michael Moore keeps getting brought up is because you can not hear a Dem speak without it sounding like they're quoting Farencrap 9/11.

Even former President Clinton was asked how he felt blame should be assigned today on TV, he said, "I think we should wait to assign blame until after some time has passed". That's right, libbies... your messiah just asked you to wait to spin. Maybe you should listen.

[PghUSA]

I guess the primary thing Guster is to find out how the system failed, no matter the good intentions of the Pres, department heads, governors or mayors, if the system is clumsy and full of redtape it will always fail. If someone did fail then your right fire them, but I just hate this partisan crap coming out.

[RiversideGator]

I do not blame Bush for the hurricane, or for the city and state short comings.

I blame Bush for not taking action until Thursday. After he got going, things started to happen. We are taking about 2 days, what was he doing?

If you listen to Lt. General Honore, the head of the Louisiana National Guard, he explains that first you cannot know exactly where a hurricane will strike so this makes planning in advance difficult, second you cannot assemble and bring in supplies and relief workers until after the storm passes because they would otherwise be lost in the storm and third the scope of the disaster was such that it overwhelmed the disaster relief network. This is a local guy in the know, not some anti-Bush fanatic out to get him at any cost. I would take his explanation of the delay over that of any of liberal opportunist.

NCB: I can understand your distress being in the middle of it all, but in today's instant gratification society people lose sight of the fact that, when disaster strikes, things dont happen automatically like they normally do. This isnt anyone's fault, this is just an unfortunate reality. Civilization is very fragile, as we have learned, and once disrupted it takes a while to be reestablished.

Liberals: As to your attacks on Brown, it sounds to me like he has far more disaster relief experience than anyone in America. He went through 9/11, California fires, midwest tornadoes and the 2004 Florida hurricanes (we had 4 hit us). No one questioned him then. Hmm, does this lead one to conclude that these attacks are merely politically motivated in that you are trying to really get at Bush?

Regarding the evacuation, the local evacuation plan in NO stated that the primary method of evacuation would be personal automobile. Then, buses would be sent to pick up those unable to drive for whatever reason. Buses are still sitting at the disposal of the Mayor of NO, never having been used, as seen in overhead shots post-hurricane. But, I will even forgive the NO Mayor, although I think he is an incompetent liberal hack, because I believe that it is the individual's responsibility to fend for himself and his family. Liberals never understand that government, no matter the leader, is less competent than private enterprise and they are always surprised to see govt. fail time and time again. The lesson from this is do not rely on government of any kind and prepare to safeguard yourself and your property in the future

In conclusion, there is really tremendous dishonesty on here by Bush-haters regarding this issue. I am not a fan of everything he does by any means. I think he is too liberal on some issues and is giving away the country to illegal immigrants. But, he really hasnt done anything wrong here. The same result would have occured no matter who was President. The only difference is, if Gore was President, y'all would not have said a word. This is why liberals keep losing elections: dishonesty, emotionalism and a fundamental lack of logic.

[Gusterfell]

I agree completely, Pgh. It just seems to me that this is the latest and most terrible occurrence in a long pattern of incompetence to come out of the Bush administration. I have had enough of his nonsense, and it bewilders me that anyone can defend him in the face of such blatant negligence. When will people realise that the emperor has no clothes?

If you listen to Lt. General Honore, the head of the Louisiana National Guard, he explains that first you cannot know exactly where a hurricane will strike so this makes planning in advance difficult, second you cannot assemble and bring in supplies and relief workers until after the storm passes because they would otherwise be lost in the storm and third the scope of the disaster was such that it overwhelmed the disaster relief network.

[Unifour]

I find it silly that people are suggesting that blacks were left to die in New Orleans and that the feds didn't do what they were supposed to. There are also white people suffering with them in NO and in the surrounding parishes. They were caught off guard, and nothing more. They thought the hurricane had missed New Orleans and they were expecting the coast of Mississipp to be the hardest hit, and then the levee failed and they were caught with thier pants down. Everyone knows most hurricanes bring flooding, but Katrina did weaken, so they let thier guard down a bit. They just didnt think it would be that much flooding in NO. The whites are dying alongside the blacks. I also think we spend way too much time building bombs than we do providing help for our citizens, but the American people usually support US foreign policy (71% supported the Iraq war at first), so that's all there is to that. The response did take too long, that's for sure, but it isn't because NO is black, it is because some red tape got in the way more than likely. Some failure of decision making. The American people voted for Bush. We didn't get stuck with him, he was placed there by us, and he could be impeached if he gets too out of it. I also don't understand the "corporate media" conspiracy theory. All people on earth watch news from the same type of sources, and I see no evidence that they are purposely dishonest. They do report Bush's drop in the polls, government scandals, the burning of American flags around the world, etc. They report what happens, although some broadcasters do let their feelings seep in during some programs (particulary Fox). Also, as a person educated in Environmental studies, let me tell you that global warming is a myth. There is NO consensus among scientists that it is even occuring, let alone man induced. The earth WOULD be warming with or without humans. We are between glacial periods, and the real threat is when we return to glaciation. There is NO "normal" temperature or weather for Earth, it has changed dramatically over the course of millenia, and quite suddenly. Several centuries ago, humans colonized Greenland, because there was little ice to be found. The earth was much warmer then than it is today. Much like the Ozone layer hysteria of a decade ago, this will fade in time as well. And guess what! There is NO ozone "layer." It is fabricated psuedoscience as well! I hope we learn from our mistakes here.

[Charleston native]

...Of course it is wise to prepare to protect yourself, but if the government isn't going to protect its citizens, when are we going to see a change in economic policy to reduce the gap between rich and poor, and allow some of thes people the resources to protect themselves?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, so what are you suggesting to reduce the gap? The problem is that many in this region have depended on the government for their food, shelter, and clothing. They have lived on welfare for many years, and they have not tried to improve their living conditions. This is very sad, but if government were to get involved with reducing the gap between the rich and poor, it would wreak of socialism.

Riverside is dead on, people should do what they can do to survive on their own and not depend on government to do so.

[UptownGrrl]

Riverside is dead on, people should do what they can do to survive on their own and not depend on government to do so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See the item about the July 24th edition of the Times-Picayune? Seems local government repeated the message that people either had to evacuate or they would be on their own. Clearly, any expectation that the government will do anything for you will often leave you sorely disappointed - whether its an actual or a perceived obligation.

I can only assume that those who stayed had a sense that the danger was over-hyped and they'd be fine and it wasn't worth going to extraordinary lengths to find a way out, or at least make emergency preparations. It was a risky decision. But, it was a decision - to act, or not to act...start walking... start saving up clean water... have your neighbor carry you to another building on higher ground...call and ask for the 40-cent Dial-A-Ride bus to take you to the shelter. About the only people I would exempt from responsibilty would be those with no ability to communicate who were completely immobilized. And, those are the people that should have been sought out and planned for by human service agencies and local government.

People expressing the personal responsibility view are being criticized for blaming the victims, but my point is not about who to single out for guilt and punishment (a natural human reaction designed to make us feel better, but which doesn't actually solve anything); its about realizing sometimes really really terrible things happen and there's not always someone there to fix it for you. Even if there should be; even if the government is "supposed" to; even if your taxes go to pay for certain agencies or services; even if the government was warned and should have planned better or made different decisions; what guarantee does that give you that when tragedy happens (be it a hurricane or other disaster) you'll be safe? There's little comfort in blame and should haves.

[monsoon]

.... This is very sad, but if government were to get involved with reducing the gap between the rich and poor, it would wreak of socialism.

Riverside is dead on, people should do what they can do to survive on their own and not depend on government to do so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heh, so leaving citizens, yes Americans, to die on the streets is perferable to socialism? I don't think so. We all pay taxes, for the government to protect us and it is not unreasonable to expect the government to come in and assist people after a disaster (natural and/or manmade). I find the cold disregard for the suffering of a segment of our society because they are getting government aid simply disgusting.

[Ruso]

Heh, so leaving citizens, yes Americans, to die on the streets is perferable to socialism?  I don't think so.  We all pay taxes, for the government to protect us and it is not unreasonable to expect the government to come in and assist people after a disaster (natural and/or manmade).  I find the cold disregard for the suffering of a segment of our society because they are getting government aid simply disgusting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seemingly, now every governmental help is related to socialism. I do not think Charleston native understands what socialism is, yet if it was only about being helpful to the people, then I would prefer socialism to indiference. Yet, Charleston, socialism is much more than that.

[Viper]

Unifour, dead on about it all. It's great to hear someone else understands natural global temperature fluxuations and doesn't buy into the hype sciences. What gets me about the Global Warming thing is even if we were warming at unprecedented levels, it is impossible with currenct technology and understanding to correlate human interaction with nature as the cause of it. It's simply conjecture.

Too those placing blame.

FEMA handled 9/11, 4 major hurricanes in Fl in 2004, wildfires and mudslides in CA, Columbia shuttle disaster and so much more and not only did they get no praise for doing a damn good job fromt eh majority of citizens, the average person didn't even know they existed. Now Michael Brown drops the ball once out of 164 federally decalred disasters since he's been in charge of FEMA and suddenly they are considered unable to help, racist, discriminatory, unprepared, and more.

As has been pointed out before, before we judge their reaction too harshly at this moment, we should await the result fo the investigation that is being developed and then we can point fingers with a bit more certainty and less foolishly.

[Ruso]

I doubt many of you know that Cuba, despite its obvious and unfortunate problems, is a continental power in medicine. Castro has given a lot of importance to education, believing that that is the real way to be free.

Yesterday, he publicly offered 1500 doctors for the catastrophe in New Orleans. The american government has not answered yet. What do you think about that?

[monsoon]

FEMA still isn't doing jack s**t in New Orleans. It has been sundered too much by the Bush camp to pay for the war in Iraq in order to deal with this disaster. Homeland security is in charge now of FEMA and if they can't even get water in there to people how in the hell do we expect them to deal with another terrorist attack? FEMAs big task these days has been to go after the imports of "knock-offs" ie clothes, food etc made to look like the real thing. In other words HomeLand Security really means. Big Business Security. Nothing new there. No wonder Homeland Security and their dog FEMA is totally unable to help in this situation.

FEMA has done good work in the past, but 5 years of Bush cuts have made them a worthless organization, especially when measured by the unnecessary dead in NO.

Rightfully so and finally, the US Military has moved in with troop carriers, heavy lifting L-CATs, water making machines, etc etc. There are now 60,000 troops in there as of today. This is all well and good but why where they not in there 9 days ago? Their late arrival means they are looking for the dead instead of rescuing and evacuating the living. It is a sad situation and blame for this rests squarely on the head of the President.

[Viper]

^Must I quote myself?

As has been pointed out before, before we judge their reaction too harshly at this moment, we should await the result of the investigation that is being developed and then we can point fingers with a bit more certainty and less foolishly.

[Gusterfell]

As has been pointed out before, before we judge their reaction too harshly at this moment, we should await the result fo the investigation that is being developed and then we can point fingers with a bit more certainty and less foolishly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll believe it when I see it. They'll blame everything on low ranking officials and halt the investigation prematurely, before it points to anyone at the top, just like they did with the 9/11 investigation.

[monsoon]

I'll believe it when I see it.  They'll blame everything on low ranking officials and halt the investigation prematurely, before it points to anyone at the top, just like they did with the 9/11 investigation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed. The Republicans went on a $90 million witch hunt on Bill & Hillary Clinton that lasted for years and all they came up with was the Clinton lied about an affair. And the idiots decided to impeach him for it.

Now thousands are dying in Iraq and NO, and all we get is a "promise" that Bush will investigate this own government. Yeah right.

[sleepy]

I'm just tired of the hurricane threads.

I heard today, after a week of trying to track her down, from my old girlfriend of 8 yrs who is suffering from cancer, and she's safe and sound with her daughter in Alabama.

I've heard from other folks safe and sound in Houston. I've not heard from everybody, but that's enough for now, for me.

[Viper]

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers said Thursday that a lack of funding for hurricane-protection projects around New Orleans did not contribute to the disastrous flooding that followed Hurricane Katrina.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationw...nationworld-hed

And you guys will still blame the flooding on Bush somehow.

[monsoon]

The article also has this quote.

" Several critics, including a former head of the Corps of Engineers, suggested in a Tribune story Thursday that the flooding in New Orleans could have been less severe had the federal government fully funded projects to improve the levees and drainage in the city.

Congress in 1999 authorized the corps to conduct a $12 million study to determine how much it would cost to protect New Orleans from a Category 5 hurricane, but the study is not scheduled to get under way until 2006. It was not clear why the study has taken so long to begin, though Congress has provided only in the range of $100,000 or $200,000 a year so far."

And this

" Neither the White House nor the Corps of Engineers would confirm the numbers, nor would they provide funding levels dating to previous administrations.

So in otherwords, this is the Bush spin machine at work. Deny Deny Deny, admit to nothing, and keep all the info secret. Nothing new here.

[Viper]

How is this the Bush spin machine coming directly from the USACE?

[Gusterfell]

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers said Thursday that a lack of funding for hurricane-protection projects around New Orleans did not contribute to the disastrous flooding that followed Hurricane Katrina.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationw...nationworld-hed

Like I said yesterday and monsoon just reiterated, it is old news that the funding wouldn't have mattered in this case. However, it was still neglectful for Bush to divert funding and kill the project.

And you guys will still blame the flooding on Bush somehow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No one is blaming him for the flood. We are blaming him for taking four days to respond to it.

How is this the Bush spin machine coming directly from the USACE?

Who is the top official responsible for the military? No military agency is going to release a public statement without the approval of the administration, especially in such a high-profile situation.

[Viper]

It isn't the presidents job to respond to emergencies, it's FEMA's and if you'd look at that one post I quoted, you'd see how much they are screwing up.

Some of you have blamed Bush for the flooding or at least the cut funding for the flooding.

[derrickskugler]

Viper - the only real way to win here would be for you, I and any other clear-thinking individual to just let the libbies have their little internet Bush-hate fest. No amount of facts we can throw at them is going to change their minds.

This whole arguement with the libbies reminds me of something my grandfather used to tell me when I was young... "Never argue with an idiot... they'll simply drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

That is not to say that all our fellow Urban Planet posters are idiots, but it should give you insight into what we're dealing with when it comes to politics on this board.

The last time I checked, this was URBAN PLANET, not BASH BUSH WORLD. Can't we just talk about skyscrapers or Atlanta's sprawl or Jacksonville's Shipyards never getting built or something?

[Ruso]

Viper - the only real way to win here would be for you, I and any other clear-thinking individual to just let the libbies have their little internet Bush-hate fest.  No amount of facts we can throw at them is going to change their minds.

This whole arguement with the libbies reminds me of something my grandfather used to tell me when I was young...  "Never argue with an idiot...  they'll simply drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

That is not to say that all our fellow Urban Planet posters are idiots, but it should give you insight into what we're dealing with when it comes to politics on this board.

The last time I checked, this was URBAN PLANET, not BASH BUSH WORLD.  Can't we just talk about skyscrapers or Atlanta's sprawl or Jacksonville's Shipyards never getting built or something?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then why are you reading this Coffe House topic? I think that us "libbies" could say the exact same thing about conservatives and their desperate need to glorify anyone who assures protection. (idiots, paranoic, ignorant, untraveled, whatever)

I just do not see how being a republican, or a democrat can stop you from seeing facts, and accepting them.

Again, I do not think it was Bush's fault, but I do think it is necessary to learn from the many mistakes he has made. I know that is impossible, however, for the same reasons you listed.