Hue

[pack-man]

better than the surface lot currently residing there.

[ncwebguy]

This project could get bigger...

Proposed floor area ratio (FAR) is 4.8 and lot coverage is 46.32% (not including the parking deck) and 71.35% (including the parking deck). A residential density of 120 units per acre is proposed. As this plan was submitted prior to the recent text change governing site plan approval standards for greater density allowances (TC-16-06), the applicants are allowed increases in residential densities in excess of 40 units per acre through the Downtown Overlay District.

Back of the napkin calculations say 40 add'l units/acre * 1.73 acres = 69 units. Assuming the existing 208 units are on the top six floors, the 69 units would result in a nine story building! Wow. Additional parking could be added via another floor of the deck. I like how it will be hidden by trellaces.

As it stands now, it has 208 dwelling units, 297 parking spaces (for residents only), and has 7,356 square feet of retail, mostly along Hargett headed toward the multi-modal transit hub. It will also shield the parking deck lighting from the Dawson on Morgan residents. The Dawson's parking lot buffers it from the Nash.

To get the service road to go all the way through the block, it will have to go through the existing "jut" created by the weird boundary of the Dawson. I know they built it up during construction of the Dawson (and used to park there 6-7 years ago), but I don't know how the Dawson uses that space.

For the retail, they report that there is a fair amount of parking in the area already -- 297 spaces include 90 on-street, 175 spaces in three public lots (the north and south sides of Hargett between West and Harrington and ?), and 122 spaces in the public portion of the Municipal Building

[plus2]

There are plenty of lots left for tall buildings, but this is the only spot left on Nash Square for a large residential development. Nash Square is a perfect setting for heavy residential development. I would bet the demand for space at this location (obviously depending on price) is huge! The areas surrounding Moore Square and Nash Square are downtown's prime real-estate behind only Fayetteville St.

It's true that not every building needs to be really tall, but we don't need to miss opportunities to get even more residents downtown, especially in what could be one of the most popular areas.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

There are plenty of lots left for tall buildings, but this is the only spot left on Nash Square for a large residential development. Nash Square is a perfect setting for heavy residential development. I would bet the demand for space at this location (obviously depending on price) is huge! The areas surrounding Moore Square and Nash Square are downtown's prime real-estate behind only Fayetteville St.

It's true that not every building needs to be really tall, but we don't need to miss opportunities to get even more residents downtown, especially in what could be one of the most popular areas.

Totally agree!

I love Plus2's idea, "This spot could really handle a lot more. I know I don't have a say in this, but 15 stories with a couple of setbacks towards the Dawson would look great." Maybe we need a developer with deeper pockets and more imagination?

[ChiefJoJo]

better than the surface lot currently residing there.

No doubt!

I know everyone wants a taller building but the developer must be able to justify his building under the current and near term marketplace for condos DT. They will compete with 222 Glenwood, West at North, Bloomsbury, etc. for buyers, so they cannot overestimate the market, or nothing will be built. This is much bigger than the Dawson BTW. 208 units on 1.73 acres is quite dense. Baby steps...

On the density rules, I read the report like it's as dense as it will get, since the rules that govern at the time of submittal were different--ie, no grandfathering. 40 units/acre is std + 40 (loc) + 40 (deck) = 120. That's what I make of it anyway.

Please post if you guys find the condo's marketing website--should be up somewhere soon I would think.

[AndrewJS]

As somebody who lives across the street, I'm happy to see this moving forward. It's hard to complain about replacing a surface parking lot with a 7 story mixed use building!

[RaleighRob]

I know everyone wants a taller building but the developer must be able to justify his building under the current and near term marketplace for condos DT. They will compete with 222 Glenwood, West at North, Bloomsbury, etc. for buyers, so they cannot overestimate the market, or nothing will be built.

True, although here's a "radical" idea---build a larger building, create as many condos as the marketplace will support, and then make the rest into market-rate rental apartments that people who can't afford condos will live in. It's a win-win deal...make money from condo sales plus renting out apartments.

I think no one here would argue that downtown doesn't need more apartments, especially at rental rates that normal working people (like me) can afford.

[plus2]

True, although here's a "radical" idea---build a larger building, create as many condos as the marketplace will support, and then make the rest into market-rate rental apartments that people who can't afford condos will live in. It's a win-win deal...make money from condo sales plus renting out apartments.

I think no one here would argue that downtown doesn't need more apartments, especially at rental rates that normal working people (like me) can afford.

Good idea! You can always sell the apartments as condos at a later date. I live in a former apartment, turned condo.

[urbanesq]

^^ I agree with everyone that it's both MUCH better than a surface parking lot, AND such a shame that the development doesn't include more units in a larger structure given that it's on such a landmark corner. It's a real lost opportunity.

I also agree that the addition of apartments would be great, both from a residential density and affordability standpoint. But I imagine that since the financing vehicles for condos and multi-family units are typically quite different, it would be exponentially harder for a developer to put together that type of deal.

Not that the developers have asked me, of course, but I always thought this would be the perfect location for a downtown lifestyle center: a true mixed-use facility complete with more street-level retail (10K is not a lot of space), some office space or a business center (right across from City Hall would be a great spot for this), a small boutique hotel with a cafe, restaurant, and gym/spa, so apartment and condo residents could have access to concierge services, an on-site health club, etc. That type of development would, I think, work really well adjacent to the park, and also so benefit from being close to the warehouse district and the clubs on Hargett St.

Oh, well. 7-stories of condos with street-level retail it is. And that itself is great infill. So it's still good news.

[ncwebguy]

Register.com says TheNashRaleigh.com and TheNashonHargett.com are both available...

A part rental-part condo building would be *very* difficult to get financed. A pure condo building will be sold, so the developer doesn't own anything after construction. A pure apartment building is financed against future rental income, and can be sold to a real estate trust that will trade cash for monthly income.

Condo buyers will pay less for a unit if their neighbors are renters who have less invested in keeping the rest of the building happy. In a condo/apartment mix, if several units go unsold and unrented, the mortgage company won't be happy owning part of a building.

Most of the south side of Nash Square along Marin Street could be redeveloped. The Berkley Cafe building and the southeast Martin/Dawson corner are ok, but even the latter isn't worth preserving from a historic perspective. The parking lot/print shop building could go, and the lots there are deep -- see the Berkley back porch. The Martin/McDowell corner's former gas station could make room for a residential midrise as well.

And the N&O will do something with their land eventually. Eventually they will get out of their offices and realize downtown is revitalizing around them.

[ChiefJoJo]

I always thought this would be the perfect location for a downtown lifestyle center: a true mixed-use facility complete with more street-level retail

Of course the developers of the Nash probably know about Site 1 (entertainment/retail/office/condo) and Reynolds (retail/hotel/condo/office), which will both have some aspects of what you are talking about, and Reynolds Tower is only about 100 yards away across Morgan St (is in site plan review now).

DTR is still in the infancy stage of revitalization right now if you really think about it. There is a lot more time for larger projects like an entertainment center to develop in the near future, especially after 2009 when many of these projects like RBC, RCC, Site 1 Lafayette are done. Charlotte has over 10k pop in it's center city and they don't have anything like this yet.

Most of the south side of Nash Square along Martin Street could be redeveloped... the N&O will do something with their land eventually.

Yeah, we seem to forget there's still plenty of redevelopment potential for that area going south to the new RCC. In 6-8 years I bet that whole area will be filled in with retail/condos/office.

[urbanesq]

Of course the developers of the Nash probably know about Site 1 (entertainment/retail/office/condo) and Reynolds (retail/hotel/condo/office), which will both have some aspects of what you are talking about, and Reynolds Tower is only about 100 yards away across Morgan St (is in site plan review now).

DTR is still in the infancy stage of revitalization right now if you really think about it. There is a lot more time for larger projects like an entertainment center to develop in the near future, especially after 2009 when many of these projects like RBC, RCC, Site 1 Lafayette are done. Charlotte has over 10k pop in it's center city and they don't have anything like this yet.

Yeah, we seem to forget there's still plenty of redevelopment potential for that area going south to the new RCC. In 6-8 years I bet that whole area will be filled in with retail/condos/office.

No question that there are plenty of development opportunities in downtown Raleigh, and that the future holds great things for the city center. My point is that the location is pretty unique-- neither the Reynolds project nor the RBC building is on the park. Getting to 10,000 population in downtown would be much quicker in larger/taller developments. But again, the proposal is a great alternative to a surface parking lot.

[MireLanski]

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/520919.html

Looks like Mitch Silver is pushing for this to go vertically! I hope the city wins this one. That block can support a larger parking deck and/or another condo building if the given space is utilized correctly.

The Nash project meets the recommendations in the city's Comprehensive Plan, a long-term guide for development.

But new guidelines for downtown encourage denser development.

At the commission meeting, Silver presented a drawing of a project that would include the same number of condominiums but rise 17 stories high and take up less of the property.

Barker said it is more expensive to build a skyscraper. "If cost weren't a concern, we might consider doing it," Barker said. "We think it's an alternative building. We think the scale is appropriate."

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/520919.html

Looks like Mitch Silver is pushing for this to go vertically! I hope the city wins this one. That block can support a larger parking deck and/or another condo building if the given space is utilized correctly.

Yeah, that would be nice, but I think Barker will win out because of cost. But like I said before, we need a developer with deeper pockets and the imagination to pull it off.

Is it just me or does anyone else think that in a decade or so, developers will wish that they had put more units in places like this, (i.e. taller buildings all around)?

[Nindec]

I think I like the fact that this is only 7 stories tall. I'm not opposed to very tall buildings, of course, but mid-rise buildings like this contribute just as much to the sidewalk as skyscrapers do. Maybe more, since they are more on a human scale.

I'd much rather see the demand for DT housing lead to a lot of mid-rise buildings which, as demand rises, could push the boundaries of downtown farther and farther out and maybe keep property values a little less astronomical, than see the the demand contained within a few super high density towers right at the core.

[urbanesq]

Is it just me or does anyone else think that in a decade or so, developers will wish that they had put more units in places like this, (i.e. taller buildings all around)?

No. It's not just you!

Taking up prime space with little buildings isn't good policy, but at some point one just has to say "this is where the market is right now, and it's better than surface lots, which is where the market has been for the last 2 decades.

[plus2]

I bet a lot of the space around Nash Square, Moore Square, the warehouse district and on Glenwood, will fill up with the 5-8 story condos for the next few years. Then when the prices go down and people also look to build up there will be a lot of taller buildings built on Hillsborough and to the east of Glenwood around West@North and the Quorum. So we will have an uneven distribution of tall buildings. 2 centers: Fayetteville St. and Hillsboorough/east of Glenwood.

[ChiefJoJo]

I'd much rather see the demand for DT housing lead to a lot of mid-rise buildings which, as demand rises, could push the boundaries of downtown farther and farther out and maybe keep property values a little less astronomical, than see the the demand contained within a few super high density towers right at the core.

I agree with this approach. There is such a thind as building too dense I believe. They could conceivably build a 500 unit condo high-rise there, but it would eat up probably a year or two of demand (for ALL DT condos) in one swoop. Great DTs are made up of lots of blocks with lots of active uses at the street and people living/working/playing above. Again, whether it's seven stories or taller, 208 units makes this the largest DT condo project yet. Give the developer some credit for that, and this...

"This is a very contemporary design," Mitchell Silver, the city's planning director, told the commission. And that is a good thing, he said.

[plus2]

I agree with this approach. There is such a thind as building too dense I believe. They could conceivably build a 500 unit condo high-rise there, but it would eat up probably a year or two of demand (for ALL DT condos) in one swoop.

You might eat up demand for high-end condos.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but if someone were to build a 500 unit high-rise of condo's around $200k each or 500 apartments, it wouldn't be able to satisfy the demand at all. It might even increase demand all over downtown, from people who couldn't get in.

You would have to build numerous large scale buildings to meet the demand for units at affordable prices.

[dmccall]

One big problem with developing buildings that have only $200,000 units is that there are a lot of fixed costs involved whether the project is high end or low end. Above ground parking garages are about $25K-30K per space. If the deck has 1.4 spots per unit, each unit will pay about a $40,000 premium just to have a parking space. Couple that with escalating land costs, construction costs of $100-200/ft and you have something that isn't easy to achieve.

This thing is ugly!

[urbanesq]

This thing is ugly!

Wow. That's a seriously charm-deficient design.

[Jones_]

You might eat up demand for high-end condos.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but if someone were to build a 500 unit high-rise of condo's around $200k each or 500 apartments, it wouldn't be able to satisfy the demand at all. It might even increase demand all over downtown, from people who couldn't get in.

You would have to build numerous large scale buildings to meet the demand for units at affordable prices.

At some point, a building loses its character too.....500 units in one building is not something I would want to live in no matter what the average cost of the unit was. I like being able to yell out my window to friends in a waiting car, watch a parade out my window or be immersed in street tree fall foliage....500 units and say 15-20-30 stories up....great, all isolated from the city way up there, give me a brownstone or the 4th floor in a neo-industrial loft with some coffee shop banter from down the street.....I think while there is huge demand for 150-200k dollar units, I think the demand for living sky high is over stated....these types of buildings do not make neighborhoods....East Village Manhatten, Georgetown D.C., Towns like Princeton NJ, these places are so different than the maniac crunch of over built, overly dense, post card pretty city USA. Mid rise residential, and high rise office is the way to go....get the offices up in the air to leave room for the shorter more desireable residential buildings.

[ChiefJoJo]

Better rendering from N&O:

[dmccall]

Thanks for posting that jojo. That first floor plate is much clearer, however the building rendering is from before the changes made as requested by the city. One thing to note is that the vehicular access to the parking garage is in the lower left, just below the word "Residential" on Hargett. I wish that they could have worked something out to share the service access with the Dawson and make the parking garage access from that driveway instead, leaving the Hargett St. retail row undisturbed.

The color on my captured images is terrible, but they axed the yellow in favor of tan and beige. The blue stays. They made the corner feature taller, too.

[capitalapts]

This McCondo looks like 5 other McCondos in Raleigh.