Hue

[orulz]

... they axed the yellow in favor of tan and beige.

Please tell me that this wasn't at the city's request. Please. PLEASE.

This looks exactly like Dawson, 222 Glenwood, the McDowell/Cabarrus Building, and pretty similar to Paramount, 510 Glenwood, and Park Devereux.

It would be nice to have some more unique, more progressive architecture. But at the same time, I suspec that (when all is said and done) the retail spaces in these buildings will feel much more "liveable" along the sidewalk, as opposed to the stark and uninviting retail space on the ground floor of Progress II and (probably) RBC. Progress II in particular really needs to do something to liven that space up.

I went up to New York this weekend. Walking around Chinatown and Little Italy, it struck me that 99% of the buildings in those districts were utterly unremarkable architecturally, beyond the fact that they are old. However, they all have retail space (piled on top of more retail space) on a very human scale, which brings lots of activity. The sidewalks literally couldn't fit all the people. The shops gave the area its character and nobody cared that the architecture didn't stand out. Raleigh is absolutely not Chinatown or Little Italy, but it shows hope that we can still end up with a great, lively downtown, even with uninteresting architecture.

[RaleighRob]

Ok I just noticed something about this thing, and I wonder if anyone else did too....

Some of the residential units will have windows (and/or balconies perhaps) facing the courtyard/patio of Legends Nightclub.

If you've never been there, suffice to say, depending on the weather, it can be full of several dozen loud people at really late hours (3am at least).

Now, what I'd like to know is, will those residents, before complaining about the noise, remember that the nightclub was there first?? Cuz otherwise, I see a possible neighbor clash happening.

[dmccall]

I think only the increased height of the corner feature was a city suggestion. They didn't mention anything about the color changes when they quickly showed the updated rendering. I imagine the whole color thing will be settled at the end, since it's just the last part of the EIFS application.

Which part of residential will be near the Legends deck?, the ones on the bottom left?

The units closest to Legends are the ones stacked on the right portion of this picture (view from the NW). Everyone else, including those overlooking the courtyard, are on the other side of the parking deck.

I think their real complaints will come when the 900' Legends Tower (complete with mirror ball) is built

[RaleighRob]

Which part of residential will be near the Legends deck?, the ones on the bottom left?

Yeah, I was looking at the map in ChiefJoJo's last post, above....shows some residential on bottom left corner. That would be right next to Legends, from what I can tell. (Fronting the Goodwill, but that's another story!)

I think their real complaints will come when the 900' Legends Tower (complete with mirror ball) is built

[Jones_]

Please tell me that this wasn't at the city's request. Please. PLEASE.

This looks exactly like Dawson, 222 Glenwood, the McDowell/Cabarrus Building, and pretty similar to Paramount, 510 Glenwood, and Park Devereux.

It would be nice to have some more unique, more progressive architecture. But at the same time, I suspec that (when all is said and done) the retail spaces in these buildings will feel much more "liveable" along the sidewalk, as opposed to the stark and uninviting retail space on the ground floor of Progress II and (probably) RBC. Progress II in particular really needs to do something to liven that space up.

I went up to New York this weekend. Walking around Chinatown and Little Italy, it struck me that 99% of the buildings in those districts were utterly unremarkable architecturally, beyond the fact that they are old. However, they all have retail space (piled on top of more retail space) on a very human scale, which brings lots of activity. The sidewalks literally couldn't fit all the people. The shops gave the area its character and nobody cared that the architecture didn't stand out. Raleigh is absolutely not Chinatown or Little Italy, but it shows hope that we can still end up with a great, lively downtown, even with uninteresting architecture.

Did anyone really expect something outside the mold beyond colors from Trammell Crow? The glass corner feature even reminds me of the entrance to Triangle Town Center. If you guys are reading this your stuff is safe and functional, not bad by any means, but cutting edge, surely not. Maybe its just fine, but man its all starting to look the same around here. Still glad to have it though....many blocks in D.C. are lined with identical looking 10 story apartment buildings from the 1920's, and D.C. is about as active and functional city on the side walk as it gets.

[ncwebguy]

The parking garage will "mute/reflect" Legends' courtyard noise. The residences next to Legends will be above the garage entrance, so they won't share a common wall with Legends proper. They should be close enough to Hargett to not hear the courtyard noises. The N&O layout is somewhat confusing, since it gives the false impression that residential and shops are mutually exclusive, especailly along Hargett.

If the service alley went through to Harrington, the deck could have used it as an entrance. Since that isn't the case, using the alley as an entrance, forcing cars to enter and exit on the downsloping Dawson, just south of the Dawson on Morgan, would make getting in and out a lot trickier than on Hargett. Does anyone know which entrance (Morgan or Dawson) to the Dawson on Morgan building's parking get used more?

Sharing Hargett with not only Legends, but CC's, Goodwill, and Our Place could be a drawback or a selling point. It hasn't hurt Park Devereux. I hope the balconies can support more weight than a few plants, but we'll see.

As far as renderings vs. reality, the brick exterior on Palladium Plaza is starting to go up and is starting to look better than I though it would.

I hope the retail portion will be easier to fill than space in the Depot, or the smaller, Morgan Street spaces in the Dawson on Morgan.

[ChiefJoJo]

The only issue I have with the plan is that the Dawson condos' entrance is next to The Nash's on Dawson St, which seems to be redundant and a poor use of space. If they could share an access, that could free up much more space for retail along Hargett, where it's needed.

I tend to agree with orulz on the primary importance of the connectivity of blocks in the DT area. I actually like the building's design just fine. Sure it's derivative, but given financial realities of budget and scope of work for this site (things that keep condos prices low, mind you) for the developer, it's really just what we need in DT Raleigh. Park Devereaux across Hargett has ZERO retail, the warehouse district is barren except for the far south end where there is action on Fri/Sat night, and moving east past city hall there is the enormous monolith of the AT&T Building with it's 50+ foot vertical blank wall. This will be a MAJOR improvement to life at the streetscape here--think what Riviera, Times Bar, and Morning Times have done for Hargett/Wilmington St. I'd say this is an improvement...

[uptownliving]

I hope they don't use that Blue EFIS. That would be a big mistake in my opinion. I think they should use a more durable matieral such as brick or stone. If they do then this building will hold its value over the long term. However if they use the Blue EFIS that just screams CHEAP...and I would not think that these units would hold their value over the long term.

[dmccall]

I didn't realize until I put my condo list together how much bigger the Nash is than everything else. I think W@N looks big with its 170 units. However The Nash has 208 units.

[Jones_]

I didn't realize until I put my condo list together how much bigger the Nash is than everything else. I think W@N looks big with its 170 units. However The Nash has 208 units.

Yep...people griping about the height are missing the important point entirely.....people..living...downtown....that many more people living in the warehouse district should enhance the chance of more retail making a go of it over there...if only TTA would develop some of there land now...

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Yep...people griping about the height are missing the important point entirely.....people..living...downtown....that many more people living in the warehouse district should enhance the chance of more retail making a go of it over there...if only TTA would develop some of there land now...

Our "griping" is not over people moving or not moving into that area of downtown. Because I believe they will anyway,(Yeah!). It's about better use of the land, wherever it may be. I personally think it will fit in very nice with it's surroundings, but I think they should have had retail wrap around a parking deck and then build the condo's on top of that structure. That's all! Having a parking deck next to the condo building is just not as good use of the land IMHO! Wheather we have lots of land or not isn't the point. It's what you do with what you have!

[Jones_]

Our "griping" is not over people moving or not moving into that area of downtown. Because I believe they will anyway,(Yeah!). It's about better use of the land, wherever it may be. I personally think it will fit in very nice with it's surroundings, but I think they should have had retail wrap around a parking deck and then build the condo's on top of that structure. That's all! Having a parking deck next to the condo building is just not as good use of the land IMHO! Wheather we have lots of land or not isn't the point. It's what you do with what you have!

I agree, what you do with available land is very important. I personally think most living experiences are worthless at 15 stories up. Shorter buildings have much better residential character imo. Sitting on a Palladium Plaze balcony and people watching on a First Friday beats the hell out of being isolated up high like being in an old folks home.

[serapis]

I agree, what you do with available land is very important. I personally think most living experiences are worthless at 15 stories up. Shorter buildings have much better residential character imo. Sitting on a Palladium Plaze balcony and people watching on a First Friday beats the hell out of being isolated up high like being in an old folks home.

That's your opinion.

[Jones_]

That's your opinion.

And what else I am supposed to be expressing here?? Did you miss the imo? I happen to think how many people that will be attracted to live downtown is a function of the type of available buildings. My own personal experience and preferences plus plenty of time talking it over with friends makes me think that most people interested in living downtown don't want to be isolated from the streetscape so far up. Yeah sure you can stuff more people downtown by stuffing them higher up in the air, I think "imo", that you are more likely to get to the critical mass of people downtown for things like a decent grocery store, bookstore, whatever it is thats lacking, if you go with shorter (4-8 story) buildings for the most part. Do you have an opinion or more of that^^? The beauty of this forum is that you are allowed to express opinions.

DwntwnRaleighGuy gave good reasons to go higher on that site. Thats cool. My reference to griping in general about going tall is one that exists throughout this subforum. Tall, money shots, municipal prestige, making a statement, signature architecture..........I hear it, see it, read it, and find it pretty easy to argue against objectively let alone my personal opinions. Dana has pointed out that this city has 100-150 buildable lots downtown still. No space crunch here. There are environmental issues involved with teardowns, these costs are rarely completely figured into the equation. There are quality of life issues that never show up on the bottom line. I think tall buildings are very freakin' cool. I also think Briggs hardware is cooler.

And thats my opinion.

[RALBOI]

Our "griping" is not over people moving or not moving into that area of downtown. Because I believe they will anyway,(Yeah!). It's about better use of the land, wherever it may be. I personally think it will fit in very nice with it's surroundings, but I think they should have had retail wrap around a parking deck and then build the condo's on top of that structure. That's all! Having a parking deck next to the condo building is just not as good use of the land IMHO! Wheather we have lots of land or not isn't the point. It's what you do with what you have!

I agree with you 100%, also people keep saying, that if the building is tall people will be isolated inside them, I don't agree, just because a building is tall doesn't mean it can't be people friendly, the real problems are as followed, BORING DESIGNS,NO VISION, people out trying to make a QUICK BUCK, also catering only to what seems to be the RICH OR WEALTHY FOLKS.These developers first stated that these condo's would be cheaper than alot of condo's already being built and they are, but even they are still FAR from being AFFORDABLE, if they built these condo's taller then more of us COMMON FOLKS could possibly buy one, and add to the street level, this is not the JETSIONS people don't have fly cars yet, so they have to come down to the street level also to get there living needs, so if you have more people theirs going to be a greater demand for service's because you have more people living downtown which will also add to street level , but it seems know one has the VISION, FOCUS or WANTS to do that and that is, "build Condo's with AWESOME street level"retail,bars, and EXCITING things to do,and we won't have people being isolated inside there condo's, because for one they will have more money in their pocket because their mortgage's aren't eating them ALIVE,2. because the condo's are cheaper because there taller and 3.The developer had the VISION or GUTS to build something that was not the NORM and made people from all over want to say "HEY THAT'S THE PLACE TO BE!!!!!And don't get me wrong am not picking on this project, but this is just in general for projects around here period. This project I guess is not that bad, but I too wish it's taller with VISIONARY STYLE and feature's other condo's aren't offering.

[orulz]

One doubt I have here is that I have yet to see a case in the real world where making a condo tower taller results in more affordability. Haven't taken any classes regarding the business aspect of skyscraper construction, but here's how I see it:

The economics of skyscraper construction are such that each additional floor costs more to construct than the floor below it. The only reason that tall residential skyscrapers are feasible in the first place is that higher floors are generally regarded as more desirable, enough so to offset the compounding increase in construction costs as you go up.

If one's goal is affordability, factoring in the fixed costs of the land (which has gone up significantly in Raleigh over the last few years but is far from out-of-this-world) one could write an equation that finds the ideal number of floors to optimize the price of total construction per square foot, which should theoretically then provide the lowest cost per square foot to potential residents. Where land is more expensive (Fayetteville Street?) the number will be higher. Where land is not so expensive the number will be lower.

My guess is that the cost of land in downtown Raleigh and on this lot in particular is not such that a 35 story building, or even a 15 story building, would optimize this equation.

[ncwebguy]

The problem with the Triangle condo market is that there are no "comparables" for a tall residential tower. The closest is the Paramount, but its perceived height is partially derived from its location.

The market premium for higher units will be set by Soleil and RBC Plaza. I think a good building would have smaller units on lower floors for people who want to "people watch" or be at home as little as possible. Upper floors would have larger floor plans for people who like skyline views but want to spend a lot of quiet nights at home. The rich often are catered to because... they have the money that can get a project off the drawing board and onto the ground. Larger floor plans plus the height would allow those units to sell for a premium, while allowing "cheaper" units on the lower floors that are desireable to a younger demographic.

What is the magic number for height, number of units, etc.? Who knows. It is hard to gamble millions of dollars to acquire land, draw up plans, etc. for the untested concept that would be a residential tower. The proximity to the TTA station makes me want to "wedge in" a lot of residents, but 200 units on the Nash's lot is significant. Also, just as people won't want to look at Crabtree's roof from Soleil, people probably won't want to look at the roofs of city hall, and the buildings to the north and south. At a certain height, the AT&T building would dominate views to the east. Building higher than that would get expensive.

There is a lot of "grayfield" (parking lot) redevelopment to be done downtown, but several of those lots are not in desireable locations, or need to be combined to build anything significant. A lot of teardowns in downtown happend years ago -- we need to play with the hand of developable lots the past has dealt us.

In new/revitalizing downtowns like Raleigh's, the residential units suppliment the ground floor retail/office space. This happens until there are enough residents in the area that retail can demand a premium for being so close a large number of well-off residents. The Dawson at Morgan has only sold the Borough retail condo -- the other two are still empty.

There is no "quick buck". These projects take years to go from market research to moving in. Developers with ties to the area, like Greg Hatem, want to make the area better so that they can repeat their success over and over. If a couple of substandard buildings went up, it would poison the well for other projects in the CBD.

[ChiefJoJo]

this was also discussed at the Central CAC mtg...

• 208 condos (no change)... most units of any project in DT Raleigh
  
• retail along Hargett St (towards TTA DT Sta), not along Dawson, but 1st flr condos will have street porch/doors
  
• avg size of units ~870sf
  

This is a Trammel Crow proj (they are doing 222 Glenwood), and they targeted this project for many more small 1BR/studio units and they will be priced "30-35% lower" than the current market--when I pressed him, he mentioned they targeted bringing some units in under $200k. They are also planning to keep the blue color on the bldg as you see in renderings.

[ChiefJoJo]

The council approved this development today.

[c_harmons]

Just read a report on Trammell Crow's North Hills project. It is on apartmentratings.com, put in Alexan North Hills.

I would have a hard time buying anything after reading about class action lawsuits, etc.

[Tayfromcarolina]

I just got an email concerning a new mid-rise condo in downtown Raleigh called "Hue" It looks from the photo to be about 7 or 8 stories tall. And Colorful, any idea as to where this project is going. I'm thinking glenwood area.

[carynative]

I just got an email concerning a new mid-rise condo in downtown Raleigh called "Hue" It looks from the photo to be about 7 or 8 stories tall. And Colorful, any idea as to where this project is going. I'm thinking glenwood area.

In another thread, a poster said this was the new name for the Nash, a previously disclosed project between McDowell and Dawson and near Nash Square and the city offices.

[dmccall]

The "you"?

No, the "Hue"

The, the "you"?

No, the "Hue"

Sssstop saying that.

(That was for those of you out there who, like me, worship at the movie alter of "What's Up Doc?")

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Why the "Hue"?

At least someone else will be able to use the name "The Nash"! Much better IMHO due to being next door to the Nash Square park.

[ChiefJoJo]

This WRAL article was up last week and reflects the change to "Hue." Here's a new tidbit though:

Construction will start this summer and is expected to be finished in the second half of 2009. The average price for condos will be under $300,000, the company said.

Buyers can pick between nine floor plans. Prices start at under $200,000.