Downtown Newport News

[vdogg]

Good Lord just do something that breaks this powderkeg of a thread up.

But I'll say this, in the defense of both, City Center is so infinitely better than anything Newport News has ever had, and I think the CC-supporters are right on; it's fantastic in the transformation it has brought and holds great promise for the future, especially in conjunction with Port Warwick, CNU, and other possible redevelopments.

TC in Virginia Beach is a totally different development for a totally different city. I'm envious of its scale and some of the things it has brought to the city in terms of the retail and the PAC, however, it has its drawbacks. Architecturally, it's crap. I'm sorry, the scale is fabulous and impressive and I love the project as a whole, but the architecture goes beyond bland. At least there's quasi-variety in CC (though I hate the main office tower. It makes me want to cry).

*sigh* That's my 2 cents, but keep in mind, I love both projects. It's just that it's comparing apples to oranges... like the damned Norfolk/Richmond comparisons. URGH!

I agree, I like both projects but they really are very different so its really not fair to compare them. It's like that

"which tower do you like better" thread. Everyone likes to root for the home team. But since we're all from 7 different homes things tend to get a little messy.

[rusthebuss]

I agree, I like both projects but they really are very different so its really not fair to compare them. It's like that

"which tower do you like better" thread. Everyone likes to root for the home team. But since we're all from 7 different homes things tend to get a little messy.

Yes we are all from different cities in this region. I happen to live in the best one, Norfolk! I will have to say I will side with the city center for it feels more urban to me. Newport News is similar to Norfolk, at least the culture part. Vabeach is hard to pull away from the suburbia feel when you are around and about there. But I do believe Vabeach is a very important part of this metro. This region is a big puzzle and we are all critical parts of it with different shapes and critical points that they bring to the puzzle that we call HR. I still wish that we had one major city and suburbs around it but at the sametime we are unique like no other metro. It has its pros and cons and I have learned to accept them.

[Padman]

Good moderating points all, gentlemen. But I wasn't ranting about the Peninsula. I was playing the role of a rabid architectural critic. I wanted people at CMSS and Harvey Lindsay to see how some people feel about their overly-conservative approach to building a town center. The chambers of commerce et al can do all that rah rah butt kissing stuff, and they do it well.

ps. Apologies to Mercuex. Didn't mean to upset you. I love the Peninsula (when I can get there). This was all about personal style preferences. The high rise condo will really help the CC project, it's a fine building, and hopefully more good things will come. It seems that the Peninsula is doing better than the Southside at getting the better paying jobs these days. When offices become the first choice for real estate investment, it will show at City Center. Those days will come soon.

One thing I am curious about. Is the shipyard traffic so bad that it is preventing further development of downtown NN?

[mercuex]

sorry for getting so bent outta shape, all.

shipyard traffic may not prevent development alone, but it certainly complicates things to the point that things will move really slowly (no pun intended).

[juancapitalcitydc]

Gosh Vdogg, what happened to my Downtown Newport News thread? lol--Just kidding. A warm and fuzzy thread is what I had in mind, not a war zone!

But, I appreciate all the expert opinions. I'm very impressed by all the perspectives many of you have to offer. You make your points and you make them well!

Now, can I make my point? Very well then.

Vdogg, in reference a DT NN mall, you say, "I don't see that being very successful on any level yet." Ten years ago, many were saying the same thing about Macarthur mall. I wasn't allowed to go to DT Norfolk at the time since it was nothing more than a haven for vagrants and transients. DT Norfolk has a strong business district, with its high rises rising high, but it is not to credit for the full-of-life Norfolk, as we know it today, Macarthur Mall is. Macarthur mall was a huge risk and so will the mall DT NN. Consider this: Historic Hilton Village, a neighborhood of 500 English cottage-style homes, was built between 1918 and 1920. Today, the neighborhood includes shops, restaurants, the Peninsula Community Theatre and the Main Street Library. The Historic North End/Huntington Heights neighborhood is located between Huntington Avenue and Warwick Boulevard, from 46th Street and 73rd Street. Adjacent to Newport News Shipbuilding, this area contains numerous beautiful 1920s homes. Both neighborhoods are listed on the National Register of Historic Places and sponsor annual special events. These two communities combined are larger than Ghent. You would fall in love, if you ever drive through these two very charming neighborhoods. In and around the Mariners Museum lies another very established neighborhood, along the banks of the James River. Here, you will not find "many a home" under 5,000Sq ft. My point is this: these very established communities are just waiting for a DT NN mall. They are tired of driving to Patrick Henry Mall. As it is Patrick Henry Mall cannot expand anymore, unless it goes up. It simply cannot accommodate the demand of the population. NN is being literally forced to do something with DT NN. There are town hall meetings that my mother attends that include out of town investors ready to invest. A master plan for DT NN will be unveiled in the near future. I

[juancapitalcitydc]

awesome pix! I'll have to visit that restaurant!

[vdogg]

It was a chore but I made it. In response to your downtown mall comment perhaps I should clarify my opinion a bit. I am seriously concerned as to whether the demographics exist there yet to support a luxury mall.

When you say this will be like a MacArthur are they truly planning this to be on the regional mall level? How are you gonna draw all the penisula suburbanites to DT NN when almost all of the shopping they need, including upscale shopping, is right next door to them. The NN/Hampton region seems to be near saturation with retail as is. Once the Peninsula TC is built and starts drawing high quality retail and large crowds that will only increase the difficulty of starting a similar establishment in DT NN. You address the point of businesses choosing the peninsula over southside, this is true. I believe the sole reason for that though is traffic, and in particular the HRBT (southside residents near New York style driving habits probably don't help too much either. ). I do not believe, however, that they are choosing the peninsula over southside due to any difference in quality of workforce, space, living environment, etc. I wish DT NN all the luck in the world and perhaps this mall will surprise us. I would just prefer that they focus on getting more residents down there before plunging into such a

risky endeavor. Lets face it, MacMall was highly risky. We really lucked out that it turned into the success that it is, but things could easily have gone the other way.

[vdogg]

awesome pix! I'll have to visit that restaurant!

Which resturant? You didn't quote the post you were referring too so I can't figure out who this was addressed too.

[juancapitalcitydc]

Which resturant? You didn't quote the post you were referring too so I can't figure out who this was addressed too.

Red Star Tavern is the restaurant I am talkin bout. I meant to delete the pix not the reply info.

[vdogg]

Red Star Tavern is the restaurant I am talkin bout. I meant to delete the pix not the reply info.

The one we have down here at TC is awesome. They even turn it into a danceclub/bar on the weekends. I went there a couple of weeks ago and the roads around TC were packed with people. It has become a real crowd drawer.

[juancapitalcitydc]

It was a chore but I made it. In response to your downtown mall comment perhaps I should clarify my opinion a bit. I am seriously concerned as to whether the demographics exist there yet to support a luxury mall.

When you say this will be like a MacArthur are they truly planning this to be on the regional mall level? How are you gonna draw all the penisula suburbanites to DT NN when almost all of the shopping they need, including upscale shopping, is right next door to them. The NN/Hampton region seems to be near saturation with retail as is. Once the Peninsula TC is built and starts drawing high quality retail and large crowds that will only increase the difficulty of starting a similar establishment in DT NN. You address the point of businesses choosing the peninsula over southside, this is true. I believe the sole reason for that though is traffic, and in particular the HRBT (southside residents near New York style driving habits probably don't help too much either. ). I do not believe, however, that they are choosing the peninsula over southside due to any difference in quality of workforce, space, living environment, etc. I wish DT NN all the luck in the world and perhaps this mall will surprise us. I would just prefer that they focus on getting more residents down there before plunging into such a

risky endeavor. Lets face it, MacMall was highly risky. We really lucked out that it turned into the success that it is, but things could easily have gone the other way.

The mall isn't going to be built in the near future. Hopefully within the next two years it will be built.

[juancapitalcitydc]

Tell me, is there any building in Hampton Roads that competes with the design of VASCIC? I think, it's in a class of it's own.

When Cosmo in Norfolk is built, it will certainly have competition then.

Can anyone find a nice picture of the Jefferson Lab building off Jefferson Blvd? That would be cool.

[urbanlife]

transforming downtown NN?? With how much land the shipbuilders own, I don't see that happening, but I could be wrong.

[johnhowell]

For Christmas I recieved a nice, new digital camera. When I come home for spring break on Saturday I'll be home a week, so I'll definetly take pictures of City Center this time.

[mercuex]

I'd say 2 years is the near future ...

Juan- I see what you're saying about DT. In fact, my parents own a home in Huntington Heights in a house built in 1927. It's a stately old neighborhood and certainly full of charm and character ... but I don't know if the neighborhood is enough to sustain a MacArthur-like mall. Between PW/CC, the new Patrick Henry Mall (renovated), and now the Peninsula Town Center thing, I really don't see the Peninsula as having much more room for retail nodes. It's built out. Frankly, it's not a terrible thing either, because I think what we're building in Oyster Point is fantastic and it needs to continue its momentum.

For DT NN it would make sense to approach it completely differently. You need to give people a reason to come down there for reasons that they wouldn't be at CC or Patrick Henry. Maybe a day cafe/nightclub district or something. Personally, I'd love to see CNU build a marine biology campus or urban planning campus downtown, but that's just me. It can take a number of forms but I don't think it should be created to compete with CC or Patrick Henry. Not only because I would like to see Oyster Point succeed, but DT just wouldn't win at this point. It's more important to get a good mix of housing, business, and retail before we start talking about malls.

Here's a clever way to clear out the riverfront across the tracks for upscale development: build mixed income housing (preferably to own) as part of mixed-use developments in DT NN. Not only would that help disperse the low-income population, but it would breathe new life into the low-income community and give them better upwards mobility. And DT gets residents. Everyone wins.

[mercuex]

I went down last weekend to see my parents and it really does look impressive. I can't wait for when I go see it when it's open for business! I can hardly stand the excitement!!

[Dixie]

I have never been to Newport News, and I had never heard of the victory arch, but that thing is awesome!

[mercuex]

Here are a number of pictures I found on my HD of DT NN that I took at various points, none of them too old (ie not much has changed since...). Some of you may recognize a few of them. Here we go:

One of two high rise residential towers in DT NN. Little known fact: DT NN is home to several hundred middle class residents plus a number of rotating sailors from the Navy over at Huntington Hall.

A fun shot of the Victory Arch and the eternal flame (which appears to be out here?).

View from the mouth of Victory Landing Park (VASCIC promenade) towards the James River, apparently overlooking the spot where the CSS Virginia and the USS Monitor duked it out... but there are competing points in Newport News and Hampton who claim this. They may all be right since they were ships and did float about while fighting. VASCIC to your left.

VASCIC. I think I may have even posted this on this thread already.

Victory Landing Park looking southeast towards the Port. My girlfriend loves the grittiness of DT NN because it reminds her of her childhood in Ukraine. I don't know if this is a compliment or not ... but I have to say the Ships and the Shipyard and the Port do have moments when they just look astonishingly beautiful. Maybe if I move to Ukraine I'll tell people how much I love Sevastopol because it reminds me of DT NN.

VASCIC.

Old Warwick Hotel. Now it's Senior Residence Organization housing. I don't care who operates it, honestly. It looks fantastic and it's been kept in remarkable condition. Right across the street from the victory arch and post office. Could be a good area for cafes.

That's the city hall up in front of the bus. This is probably as high density as it gets in DT NN nowadays after all the urban renewal work (read: demolition). Remarkably high concentration of municipal workers during the day, though. If I were to open a day-only coffee shop, I have no doubt I'd make a killing down here.

Just a general shot looking over a park on the superblock. To your right you can see the tip of the Warwick Hotel SRO and the Post Office right under it. I think somewhere around there is where the new Federal Courthouse is expected to be built.

From the James River side of Victory Landing Park looking at the Victory Arch and the Warwick Hotel SRO. I love this picture. I just wish I had taken it better (hint hint anyone taking NN pics anytime soon).

The saddest sight in DT. This is the old Greek Orthodox Church. It's a gorgeous building and could be made into something awesome. I talked to a city planner one time who told me that a ton of people had come to see it but Abestos abatement made the costs simply prohibitive. No one knows what to do with it but nobody has the heart to tear it down either (thank god). If development does come soon, this is a prime place to begin. This is as good an argument for abestos law reevaluation as any.

Drive by shooting. Heh.

Gritty, industrial DT NN.

... On a beautiful day!

God I love this photo.

How can you not love this??

---

OK hope you guys enjoyed. Next time I'm down I'll try to take more pictures and more detailed ones at that.

[GoodNews]

Let's face it. The city of NN gave up on any plans just about DTNN and the eastend in the 80's. I am from the eastend of the city. The EASTEND is a rough area, but not DTNN. In fact crime as far as murders and larceny, they were higher in the Northend of the city (north precinct statistics) were CNU, Pat mall, etc are located. I understand the city desire to move northwards, but DTNN is in the most prime location of all NN. Great highway system, prime location, and great potential. I might be DT basis, but it just makes more sense to me. I like the CC alot. I think it is a great development, but let's face it......it's not DT. Just look at Norfolk. While in its prime, the city could have planed more and it would have been booming today. I mean why would you want to build that entire highway and don

[mercuex]

Hey goodnews and welcome to the forum. I have to disagree with you because it's been a consistent policy of the city to disperse the concentration of low-income residents in the East End throughout the city for the past decade to 15 yrs. They're starting to make inroads now, especially with Champion Development agreeing to develop riverfront property into an upscale urban community on that side of the tracks.

DT NN I think would be very successful if went about developing piecemeal. This would include tax breaks/subsidies for businesses that agreed to relocate there and daytime cafes/restaurants to cater to the daytime population, which is pretty huge. Eventually as more residences open up and the establishments make a place for themselves, they might consider staying open later etc. It could happen, but there's no silver bullet solution.

[vdogg]

All photos have been moved to the NN pictures thread.

[mercuex]

i wish they had been able to stay here.

[urbanfan]

Let's face the music guys. I for one experience the traffice downtown NN and the lack of parking there. There is very little land to build on that some parking company doesn't own and is content on keeping it a surface parking lot to make money and keep there revenue coming. The last thing these people want to see is renewed projects being built and then being forced to either sell or build parking garages to accomodate the growth. Not to mention that the traffice there is a nightmare. The only way NN will ever see a revival is if the Shipyard downsizes again and light rail finally makes it through the city. Otherwise, there will be no need for anyone outside the shipyard to make a trip to downtown NN. Not to mention that most of the population is either in east and north hampton and central and north newport news. Why come to downtown when everything else is already much closer where you live. There would have to be significant project like an amusent park to even make the journey rewarding. However, I for one love downtown NN and the character there, and do wish that these greedy parking lot owners who are content with surface parking get it stuck to them. The demand for parking far outsupplies the amount of parking. You would think that this would justify building parking garages. But no, they would rather make sure there parking lots are always full than to spend money allowing more people to park. So what happens, people park on medians and streets all the way up warwick blvd. just to park. GREED could be the end of downtown NN.

[Padman]

I've always wished that the City Center were built downtown instead so as to help establish the critical mass needed to bring in more retail, institutional and residential activity. But given the access issue, Oyster Point may actually be a more central location for Peninsula purchasing power. And the proposed remake of Coliseum Mall into a "Town Center" doesn't bolster downtown Newport News' chances either. The parking problem downtown wouldn't be too hard to overcome, given a little political push. Light rail is a big question though. Ridership in a fairly low density and narrow corridor can only be so healthy, even with that huge shipyard destination. Financially, the Norfolk/VB line is an iffy enough proposition. I think I agree that some incremental measures might be the best bet. Build and administer some adequate parking facilities and add some nice high-rise apartment and condo towers, along with some town houses. Then put in a safe, centrally located neighborhood shopping district, mixed in with office and residential units. An extended riverfront promenade might also be an effective, low-cost attraction.

[GoodNews]

"Not to mention that most of the population is either in east and north hampton and central and north newport news."

Thanks for the welcome. I have been watching the post of this site for some time now and I am very happy with all this info. For the most part NN is broking up in three major section (with others areas in those). It is South, Central, and North. The central part of NN is the least populated of the city with the North end being first and the South being next. West hampton is more populated than east hampton, which west hampton is right next to the south of NN. I never said the city didn't have anything planned for DT or eastend. Said not much was planned. Just in the past three years or so. Here's new news.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-69468sy0...=dp-widget-news