New Condo Tower

[MZT]

Uh-Oh. Threadjoin to "Fifth And Popular" Quoting from there:

I just got an updated price sheet from Helen Adams Realty.  email says 1/2 sold out and Price Increases coming. 

The price sheet indicates 140 out of 304 units sold.  they appear to be anywhere from 335 to 400 psf  on what is remaining.  interior courtyard 2bd 2bth condos about 1030sf w/ 80sf balcony price from 390K to 405K for a higher elevation.

I know someone who bought as an investor and is looking for a renter at a pretty high price.  no doubt he is not alone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's think about this. OK, uptown is worth a premium to save gas and time. Perhaps some additional premium to be close to the bars and restaurants.

But is it really comparable to pay ever-so-much-more? We're not talking 10 or 20 percent more, here. These prices are double and triple what existing housing costs per sq ft. $250K will buy a really nice house in many parts of town. And it probably would have a 2 or 3 car garage.

I think people are paying an "exclusivity premium". Not so much a "convenience and lifestyle" premium.

[atlrvr]

Why do you people get so defensive anytime somebody suggests a desire for a downtown middle-class option?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not defensive at all.....I'm trying to point out why it won't happen. I've pointed out the construction cost side of things, I've pointed out the investment return side of things, I've pointed out the supply/demand side of things, and I've pointed out the regulation side of things (actually, maybe I didn't really hit this one so I'll address it here)

Legally, for developers to build "affordable" housing at some incentive, they have to build housing that people will qualify who make below a certain threshold, known as the AMI (Area Median Income). The cutoff can be either 80% or 60% of the AMI, with the lower number allowing the the developer to do fewer units in return for the same amount of subsidies.......trust me people, if you are sitting in a downtown office right now, you're not going to qualify for these programs.

On the for-sale side, these same programs come into play, but there is no way to keep these properties from being flipped after 1 year at full market rate. The only longer term program available is one where the city takes out a second mortage to the amount of $7,500 and after a resident has lived there for more than 5 years, $1,500 a year is forgiven by the city. But even then, there is no way to prevent a resident from flipping the property and eating the $7,500 loss which they would likely make up for in appreciation.

Also, I'm not sure what people consider middle class, but a person making $35,000 a year would qualify for a 1BR unit in most communities uptown.

[MZT]

Also, I'm not sure what people consider middle class, but a person making $35,000 a year would qualify for a 1BR unit in most communities uptown.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A middle class salary IMO should be about 1/4 the price of a nice starter home or double the cost of a basic family sedan.

I'd say around $42,000 nowadays.

[atlrvr]

A middle class salary IMO should be about 1/4 the price of a nice starter home or double the cost of a basic family sedan.

I'd say around $42,000 nowadays. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent.....so not only should a middle class person be able to qualify for a 1BR in any uptown community, but should also be able to get those patio-dancers at least twice a year.

[SmellyCat]

Another measure would be an affordability index, which historically has ranged around 3 times an annual salary on a national basis (California's is currently over 6 times!! - no bubble?).

For a family with a household income of $50,000, to buy a 1200 sf house uptown (assuming a price of $300/sf) yields an affordability index of 7.2, or roughly 2.5 times higher than the rest of the region.

[f0xym0p]

Excellent.....so not only should a middle class person be able to qualify for a 1BR in any uptown community, but should also be able to get those patio-dancers at least twice a year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you mean to purchase a 1 bedroom condo? Yeah, maybe he could qualify for the loan, but it would certainly be difficult to make the loan payments, the tax payments, pay all other bills, and still be able to eat, much less eat in the restaurants uptown.

[monsoon]

When was that? Without massive subsidy we're not going to be seeing sub-$200 rents again, ever, anywhere in this country; it's a matter of inflation, not a real estate bubble.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Back in the day when my feet hurt all day long from wearing trendy 4" platform shoes and Charlotte still had the King Kong Disco and Roller Boogie.

[cinco]

Excellent.....so not only should a middle class person be able to qualify for a 1BR in any uptown community, but should also be able to get those patio-dancers at least twice a year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

my concern is the middle class family...it seems the uptown divide is after 1br. the jump to a 2br is a big one - just forget a 3br. i understand why sq. footage is as pricey as it is, and i don't have a suggestion as to what could be done. i know sometimes we all get tired of middle class complaints, the truth is there are alot of us (lower middle class) and imagine the urban growth if we had some options uptown.

also, i don't think the real estate "bubble" will pop...but it will deflate.

[MZT]

Man, is this thread on fire today... Is anybody getting work done?

Here's another thing to consider, about how prices are where they are.

In tract building, they don't want units to sit empty. Vacant houses can be damaged by the weather, entered by vagrants, vandalized. Pests may roost in them, and it's just a "marketing drag" for prospetive customers to drive up and see too many for sale.

So, the builder "prices to move". He wants to keep "his crew busy" and sets a modest markup (say, 20 to 30 percent) on each unit.

With a tower, most of these problems are mitigated. And I suspect the developers have a more arm's length relationship with the general contractors.

So, you can form a business plan that's years long. You set the prices relatively high, but can be patient and wait for the sell-out. That's probably what's going on at the Arlington and Fifth and Poplar.

The happy conundrum for some of these developers is that the towers have sold out in pre-construction. So naturally, they're going to turn around and build again... until they do reach a slow-sellout point. IE, market saturation.

[SmellyCat]

The middle class has been priced out of many many other city downtowns for years, yet those cities still thrive.

I don't know what the answer is...perhaps an artists' district? Rezone lackluster areas as an artist colony and provide cheap prices to artists who are willing to renovate warehouses or other less than stellar properties and continue to operate there. I'm thinking about how SoHo became reinvigorated in the 1960s that way. That should bring a little more diversity into the area, no?

[ngp]

The middle class has been priced out of many many other city downtowns for years, yet those cities still thrive. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the focus here is on downtown simply because that's the only place in Charlotte where legitimate urban living is a possibility. Increased density down South Blvd. and the redevelopment of Belmont and Optimist Park will hopefully provide options for families in the future.

[monsoon]

Everybody seems to chase the dream of a Norman Rockwell painting of a community comprised of all classes of people living on the same street. These places don't exist anymore. The USA's society is highly polarized now along the lines of income, class/status and to a lesser extent racial background. And the income spread between the haves and have nots gets greater every year.

So instead of building communities, we build developments based on income and that means you will never see downtown be anything else but a haven for yuppies, dinks that don't want a house, Gays who think CLT is urban living and maybe some empty nesters (though I suspect that most of these end up leaving Charlotte). This is because the developments there are at the high end of the Charlotte scale. The only exception is public housing operated by the city.

The vast majority of the middle class with children are lost in the rat race of paying to raise their kids and that is the focus of 99% of what they do. So these people will move to developments that offer lot of space, a yard and a 2 car garage for the SUV and minivan. This is a cultural thing as well. Couples with kids want to be around other couples with kids (maybe to share the misery) so it feeds off itself and we end up with vast areas of sprawl as developers and local govt. are happy to cater to this crowd. (they vote)

The poor get the left overs and take over places abandoned by the afore mentioned crowd. Right now this means East Charlotte and neighborhoods around S. Blvd.

This is the state of living in Charlotte (and most Southern cities) and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

[dubone]

there are lots of dinks, yups, gays, empty nesters, divorsees, and public housing people in this city.

norman rockwell is dead, but if the only group that lives downtown are dinks, yups, gays, empty nesters, divorsees, and public housing residents, then downtown will be highly diverse (on a class and race basis), as it already is.

i agree that urban living and downtown living will not be available to many, as the value of the property causes middle-class housing to be very very small.

but those groups make up way more than 2% of the metro population, which is the rough market that the developers are working with.

[atlrvr]

So, you can form a business plan that's years long. You set the prices relatively high, but can be patient and wait for the sell-out. That's probably what's going on at the Arlington and Fifth and Poplar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The problem with urban housing is that you have to build all your units together which means you area paying interest to your lender as long as they sit unsold. That is why pre-sells are much higher for urban product than suburban.....plus in suburban communities the developer is typically selling off the lots to the home builder so there is less risk on the developers part.

Also, in urban buildings, developers usually cover the HOA's for all unsold units, in suburban product, the total HOA collections usually corresponds to the % developed, so it is much less of a burdan on the developer.

[atlrvr]

I don't know what the answer is...perhaps an artists' district?  Rezone lackluster areas as an artist colony and provide cheap prices to artists who are willing to renovate warehouses or other less than stellar properties and continue to operate there.  I'm thinking about how SoHo became reinvigorated in the 1960s that way.  That should bring a little more diversity into the area, no?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely.....there are plenty of areas in the city ripe for a turnaround. What I don't understand is how people expect an area that has already turned around and now is obviously one of the most popular areas to remain average priced. Why aren't people upset that Ballantyne Country Club doesn't have houses in the $100k's? Why aren't people upset that Eastover doesn't have more than 16 rental units in the neighborhood?

[monsoon]

Absolutely.....there are plenty of areas in the city ripe for a turnaround.  What I don't understand is how people expect an area that has already turned around and now is obviously one of the most popular areas to remain average priced.  Why aren't people upset that Ballantyne Country Club doesn't have houses in the $100k's?  Why aren't people upset that Eastover doesn't have more than 16 rental units in the neighborhood?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think you could consider Ballantyne or Eastover, "turnaround" neighborhoods. They were built as exclusive places (see my post above) and have always remaind that way. Eastover in particular was built as an enclave to keep white kids safe from the "undesirables" (re Blacks) in the rest of Charlotte.

[atlrvr]

Ok...even more to the point.....they are pricey areas of town, like Uptown is now.

[monsoon]

Ok...even more to the point.....they are pricey areas of town, like Uptown is now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh I completely agree. Again I stated the reasons why above.

The downside of this of course, if I am correct, is that downtown will never have the general amenities that are needed for day to day living and people living there will need to make trips to the middle class suburbs for those kind of things. I might be wrong, but I don't think that people can live 100% of the time by spending money in Morton's to eat or getting drunk in a high end bar. There needs to be more than that though I am sure there are people who exist to live from trend to trend.

[Skyybutter]

If uptown becomes home of yuppies and high income households only, Im afraid I wont be very impressed. Firstly, that would knock me out of the loop(hehe), secondly as Ive stated before I think it would make uptown boring. Im not saying yuppies are boring, Im simply saying the uptown has to have diversity. What would NYC be without the street performers, artist on the streets and pink spiked hair?

If I want khacki and polo shirts I can go to Birkdale or Southpark. God I can only hope that uptown evolves into something unique. Im not just talking buildings, Im talking more about the people.

[ilektronik]

Couples with kids want to be around other couples with kids (maybe to share the misery)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is SOOOOO true!!!!!!

It's not our fault though. I swear the minute my wife (at that time she was my gf) got pregnant none of my friends wanted to hang out anymore.

[dubone]

what am i missing here? uptown has and always will have diversity. there is no gate under 277 keeping out the homeless, of which there are plenty downtown. there is also the highest concentration of public housing in the city and possibly the state, and those units are immune to gentrification. Also, most of the poorest neighborhoods in the city flank uptown on 2 (maybe 3) quadrants.

Significant numbers of the units going downtown, well within middle class price points of 150k-300k are too small (MB refers to them as closets, and that isn't far from the truth) for the wealthy to ever move into, so the values of those units will likely stay within middle class pricepoints.

uptown will not ever be homogenously rich. period.

it is probably already the most diverse zipcode in the county, on both racial and economic grounds, and the legal and economic structures are already in place to keep it diverse. Also, as the county/city own a sizeable percentage of the remaining land, they will likely require a percentage of affordable housing in whatever gets built there.

right now, diversifying uptown means pulling in the super-rich, the rich, and the upper middle class. the only way for the middle class or poor become minorities in uptown would be if the appreciation rates accelerate and people like me (a 20-something dink) get rich.

[atlrvr]

If uptown becomes home of yuppies and high income households only, Im afraid I wont be very impressed. Firstly, that would knock me out of the loop(hehe), secondly as Ive stated before I think it would make uptown boring. Im not saying yuppies are boring, Im simply saying the uptown has to have diversity. What would NYC be without the street performers, artist on the streets and pink spiked hair?

  If I want khacki and polo shirts I can go to Birkdale or Southpark. God I can only hope that uptown evolves into something unique. Im not just talking buildings, Im talking more about the people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that all of that occurs in the general urbanization of the city.....better transit bringing people together, combined with multiple urban districts with their own distinct feel that bleed together......it may take 10-20 years, but their will come a point where each of the 4 wards are distinct neighborhoods, that not only interact with other uptown neighborhoods but with those outside the loop....

I think the vision is that there will be enough variety in an urban environment that at somepoint in the future we won't necessarily think of "well I can't live inside 277 because it probably costs too much", but instead people will chose their urban neighborhood based on ammenities, price, commuting pattern etc....

[monsoon]

I think that all of that occurs in the general urbanization of the city.....better transit bringing people together, combined with multiple urban districts with their own distinct feel that bleed together......it may take 10-20 years, but their will come a point where each of the 4 wards are distinct neighborhoods, that not only interact with other uptown neighborhoods but with those outside the loop....

I think the vision is that there will be enough variety in an urban environment that at somepoint in the future we won't necessarily think of "well I can't live inside 277 because it probably costs too much", but instead people will chose their urban neighborhood based on ammenities, price, commuting pattern etc....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except of course there is absolutely no evidence to support such an eventuality and plenty to say that downtown is headed toward being nothing but a very expensive whitebread domain. Based on what you have said earlier on price, and what I have witnessed over the last 27 years that I have lived here is that downtown (inside the loop) is becoming less and less diverse everyday.

The 4th Ward was the first Ward to gentrify in the late 1970s. Now here we are a quarter of a century later, and it is a fairly exclusive place where you can't even park unless you live in the neighborhood, and every bit of grit has been removed and replaced by expensive condos. Other than the nice looking houses, it is as plain and boring as any cookie cutter suburb in the city because the residents don't want to interact with anyone of lesser economic status.

I know people who live in the Garden district and look with suspucion and disdain whenever their neighbors from Piedmont courts (of course they don't consider them neighbors) cross under I-277 and pass through their neighborhood to get downtown. Its the same as if someone threw some s*it onto a birthday cake at an debutant party. There is absolutely no interaction between these two neighboorhoods that only separated by a few feet, and I doubt that you see many First ward residents participating in the streetlife that one would find on Siegal Avenue. (and its not all bad as some would assume)

And case in point, the recent police actions against the Black youth who were starting to frequent downtown at night. The police where backed by the Charlotte leaders and the CCCP who didn't want them down there lest the whitebread get some gravy on it.

The bottom line is that downtown is much much less diverse than it was when I moved here in the the 1970s and is still headed in that direction. It is also, IMO, much more boring and predictable though that is my opinion as one who is long past the stage of needed to chase after trendy stuff. I get no pleasure sitting down to a meal that costs $25 or more in a restaurant especially when it is fairly unremarkable food. But then again when I am in places such as London, I am more than happy to eat ethnic street food rather than to head to the touristy places. Its too bad that we don't have any of that in Charlotte and we are building an Emerald city that will preclude any of it in the future. Its whitebread. (oh I forgot, this is CLT, make that 8 grain bread from the HT La Brea bakery)

[turbocraig]

^In regard to the Fourth Ward reference, and as a resident of 4W myself, I can tell you that this is simply not true, at least for the majority of people I know. In fact, at one of the last 4W meetings, Lynn Weiss, president of the Friends of Fourth Ward association, announced that a developer that had expressed interest in tearing down Booth Gardens to replace it with expensive condos, had abandoned the plan. The room erupted in applause as Lynn said, and I quote, "...and we're certainly happy to hear that because we value the diversity in our neighborhood."

Now for those of you unfamiliar with Booth Gardens, it's subsidized housing in the literal heart of historic 4W that was probably built in the late 70's or early 80's. It's located near the intersection of 7th and Poplar. It is not pretty; it's a collection of plain greenish boxes with a Salvation Army/Booth Gardens sign out front and houses some of the center city's poorest residents. Keep in mind that BG backs up to 4W Park and is probably on one of the most desirable plots of land in the center city.

I wonder how many people ever actually make their way to our neighborhood before forming common misconceptions. Oh, and if anyone is looking for parking in 4W, I can tell you where to park for free.

[Miesian Corners]

Turbo, I agree. I work in the Charlotte Cotton Mills complex and there are all sorts of people out and about (especially since there are now 2,200 college students meandering the streets). I doubt anyone who REALLY wants exclusivity would think about uptown. Why just earlier in the summer I came to work early one morning and was faced with a homeless man bathing (naked) in the fountain at the main entrance to LandDesign. Don't get that in Ballantyne or Eastover.