New Condo Tower

[turbocraig]

Exactly! Just walk from a bar or restaurant at night to a residence in 4W and you're bound to come across some pretty colorful characters on the way.

[graydog]

Turbo, I agree.  I work in the Charlotte Cotton Mills complex and there are all sorts of people out and about (especially since there are now 2,200 college students meandering the streets).  I doubt anyone who REALLY wants exclusivity would think about uptown.  Why just earlier in the summer I came to work early one morning and was faced with a homeless man bathing (naked) in the fountain at the main entrance to LandDesign.  Don't get that in Ballantyne or Eastover.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you saw the protoype of a new CATS public art project. McCoury since cancelled it.

[ElricSeven]

Some people want to live downtown and can't afford it. Lots of people, probably. Just because they voice a little frustration that they're priced out of a convenient and desirable lifestyle option doesn't mean they want "commie blocks" or any other such bullcrap. They just want increased supply, most likely.

Why do you people get so defensive anytime somebody suggests a desire for a downtown middle-class option?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why can't we voice frustration at people wanting something at a discount that we paid full price for? Or, voice frustration at the intimation that those of us living Uptown are rich snobs. Or, that we somehow are not people of diverse interests if we can afford live Uptown. Or, that something I busted my arse to pay for with 10 years of college, multiple difficult college degrees and 3,000 hour per year workloads should be given away to someone who just complains that it is unfair? If someone wants something and can't afford it, they should save, invest, work hard, make sacrifices and you might get it for yourself.

Charity, government intervention in capitilist markets and other handouts should be reserved for the truly needy. Not used to facilitate handouts for some vaguely supported hypothesis that everyone is entitled to live Uptown as some God-given right.

The surest sign of a person's character is their response to hardship or adversity. Do they look inward and see how they can improve themselves and their situation to overcome their adversity, or how they might be the cause of that adversity? Or, do they piss and moan about the situation because the only other solution is to recognize that they're lazy, unmotivated and spoiled enough to feel entitled to everything without working for it?

[dubone]

uptown may not be much more diverse than 20 years ago, but it is more integrated. 10 years ago, the rich whites might have lived in 4th ward and the poor blacks lived in 1st ward's earle village. Now there are more people in general due to housing growth, and most of that growth has been middle class (condos in the 150-250k price range). it lacked middle class and people in general 10 years ago. but the housing units are all next to eachother, halfmillion dollar saussy burbank homes, large townhomes, small townhomes, little condos and subsidized apartments are all within a 6 block area in the garden district.

I'm sure everyone cringes when they see a homeless man showering on their porch (as has happened to me) after crawling around in the dumpster. The issues with piedmont courts were that there was a lot of drug activity, so in some cases early on, the homeless would walk through first ward from their shelter on Tryon, take people's belongings off their porch, or break into their cars, and then purchase contraband in piedco. But that was 4 years ago, and i don't see that much any more since first ward instituted community watch.

There are soooo many layers to this socially. I chose to live uptown because it was diverse, but also because it was growing and becoming nicer and i could invest in the hopevi concept, believing i could do so without losing my money or my safety. I don't mind living next to poor people, black people, gay people, rich people, snobby people.... as long as they don't commit crimes that put at me, my family, or my property at risk.

[ngp]

Why can't we voice frustration at people wanting something at a discount that we paid full price for?  Or, voice frustration at the intimation that those of us living Uptown are rich snobs.  Or, that we somehow are not people of diverse interests if we can afford live Uptown.  Or, that something I busted my arse to pay for with 10 years of college, multiple difficult college degrees and 3,000 hour per year workloads should be given away to someone who just complains that it is unfair?  If someone wants something and can't afford it, they should save, invest, work hard, make sacrifices and you might get it for yourself.

Charity, government intervention in capitilist markets and other handouts should be reserved for the truly needy.  Not used to facilitate handouts for some vaguely supported hypothesis that everyone is entitled to live Uptown as some God-given right.

The surest sign of a person's character is their response to hardship or adversity.  Do you look inward and see how they can improve themselves and their situation to overcome their adversity, or how they might be the cause of that adversity?  Or, do they piss and moan about the situation because the only other solution is to recognize that they're lazy, unmotivated and spoiled enough to feel entitled to everything without working for it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Where were the posts where people were demanding free luxury downtown condos? I missed those.

Also, there is a little ambiguity with the pronouns there. Specifically, it's the "you" I'm having trouble with. So, just in case it needs to be said, you should know that I'm not trying to steal your house.

EDIT: Added E7's quote for the sake of continuity. Because Dubone types faster than me.

[Miesian Corners]

^I DEMAND A FREE LUXURY CONDO! Can I have one at the Vue, please?

[ElricSeven]

Where were the posts where people were demanding free luxury downtown condos? I missed those.

Also, there is a little ambiguity with the pronouns there. Specifically, it's the "you" I'm having trouble with. So, just in case it needs to be said, you should know that I'm not trying to steal your house.

EDIT: Added E7's quote for the sake of continuity. Because Dubone types faster than me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are asking for a handout via a discount. I paid full price and any net giveaway would take away from my value or be subsidized through higher taxes or prices for me. Also, it is an affrontery to those who work hard and make sacrifices for what they want.

[ngp]

Okay, I've gone back and read from page 2 or so and the only thing I've seen that could be construed as a request for handouts was atlvr's suggestion that certain businesses could be subsidized in order to diversify downtown's employment sector. That's all I've seen.

Also, the fact that you're implying a person's wealth reflects their value as a human being makes me a little...uncomfortable.

But whatever, you win. I don't care enough either way to argue about it.

[monsoon]

^In regard to the Fourth Ward reference, and as a resident of 4W myself, I can tell you that this is simply not true, at least for the majority of people I know.  In fact, at one of the last 4W meetings, Lynn Weiss, president of the Friends of Fourth Ward association, announced that a developer that had expressed interest in tearing down Booth Gardens to replace it with expensive condos, had abandoned the plan.  The room erupted in applause as Lynn said, and I quote, "...and we're certainly happy to hear that because we value the diversity in our neighborhood." 

Now for those of you unfamiliar with Booth Gardens, it's subsidized housing in the literal heart of historic 4W that was probably built in the late 70's or early 80's.  It's located near the intersection of 7th and Poplar.  It is not pretty; it's a collection of plain greenish boxes with a Salvation Army/Booth Gardens sign out front and houses some of the center city's poorest residents.  Keep in mind that BG backs up to 4W Park and is probably on one of the most desirable plots of land in the center city.

I wonder how many people ever actually make their way to our neighborhood before forming common misconceptions.  Oh, and if anyone is looking for parking in 4W, I can tell you where to park for free.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think I excepted out public housing and everything else I said was true. I used to live in 4th ward so I don't have any mis-conceptions of what has gone on there over the last 27 years. And in the particular example that you mention, you might also have mentioned the people did not like the plans the developer was proposing to replace that housing. That is the real reason they were cheering. (if they did)

[monsoon]

Exactly!  Just walk from a bar or restaurant at night to a residence in 4W and you're bound to come across some pretty colorful characters on the way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think I rest my case if this is how you view the people that have yet to be pushed off of Graham street. When is the joint West Charlotte/4th Ward tea party and dance? I don't want to beat you up, but saying that 4th Ward residents are happy to have poor black people living in the neighborhood really isn't my experience.

--------

On the other comments made here, don't confuse desperate people (homeless) with diversity. I will say again that downtown is not nearly as diverse as it was even 10 years ago and is getting less so every day. I am not saying this is the fault of anyone, since it seemst to be a component in American society, but I am only bringing it up because downtown is becoming a very expensive place to live which for the most part is going to prevent 95% of society from living there.

I'm often amused by people posting here about the lack of shopping in downtown, yet it is just a short bus ride, or even walk to plenty of shopping on West Trade street. (beyond I-277) They have grocery stores, fast food, restaurants, drug stores, etc. But no one that I know that lives in downtown will go there to shop. The shopping is there, but there is an invisible wall that keeps downtown residents from intereacting with the neighborhoods that surround them because they are a completely different demographic. re. the fear of drugs in Piedmont Courts.

This means that dreams of retail, especially the kind for day to day living, is never going to return to downtown. Sears, Belks, discount stores, electronics places, good and inexpensive restaurants, are long gone are won't be back because the vast majority of people they cater too have left downtown never to return.

[turbocraig]

Then maybe you could shed some light on what those developer's plans were. I never saw them. What was it that my neighbors didn't like? It's hard to believe that if we were truly snobs that we'd turn our noses up at something that'd replace section eight housing. Do you have a source that goes to the FOFW meetings?

[dubone]

define "diversity" please. i just don't see what i'm missing.

you can't exclude public housing when assessing downtown diversity, as in a high-property-value district (which downtown charlotte has been for ~a century), the only way for poor people to live next to rich people and middle class (ie. diversity) is to have subsidies. It would be like saying, 'no one works downtown, excluding the office towers'. public housing is a core part of the demographics of downtown, and cannot be excluded when discussing this point.

also, west trade is where i get my bo's fix (yummy), so here is at least one downtown resident that uses biddleville retail. but the other retail is further and redundant with retail in uptown (barber, convenience store, grocery store, drug store), so i'm not sure that point holds.

also, regarding the connection of neighborhoods inside and outside the loop, i think that is true to a small degree, but it isn't much different from the fact that i don't socialize with my next door neighbors either... people's communities are usually related to interests, jobs, friends of friends, etc. However, at least speaking for myself, when i go for a run, i often go through optimist park's little sugar greenway or down davidson street. I also go to the community pool in villa heights. my white a$$ sticks out like a sore thumb, but it is the kind of thing you are saying doesn't happen with new downtown residents, and i don't think i agree.

[monsoon]

Dubone you are one of the good people and an example to others in our society.

[dubone]

Dubone you are one of the good people and an example to others in our society.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

shucks, that is an debate ender . thanks.

[monsoon]

...  It's hard to believe that if we were truly snobs that we'd turn our noses up at something that'd replace section eight housing.  ....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Turbocraig, I apoligise if you got from what I said that you were all snobs. This was my original comment on 4th ward which you criticized as a misconception.

The 4th Ward was the first Ward to gentrify in the late 1970s.  Now here we are a quarter of a century later, and it is a fairly exclusive place where you can't even park unless you live in the neighborhood, and every bit of grit has been removed and replaced by expensive condos.  Other than the nice looking houses, it is as plain and boring as any cookie cutter suburb in the city because the residents don't want to interact with anyone of lesser economic status. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think I said anything incorrect. All of the modest businesses that used to border 4th ward have been eliminated, and replaced by condos, the former hotels that backup to the neighborhood have been fenced off and I really don't think based on the people that I know in 4th ward there is much interaction with the people on the other side of I-277. We were having a discussion on the interaction of neighborhoods in the downtown area, and it is my contention they don't and is getting more polarized.

Your descrition of your neighbor's houses as Section 8 housing has a lot of negative connatations as well as calling them a collection of plain greenish boxes. If 4th Ward is such a happy diverse place I can only assume the wealthy residents would go over and help their poor neighbors paint their houses. BTW, I am not passing judgement so please don't take it that way. I will be the first to say that I would not want to live next to low income housing either.

[turbocraig]

Geez, it's getting to the point of splitting hairs here, so just to address the "negative connotation" of the 'greenish boxes': That's what they are. It's just a fact. Nothing negative in that statement, no need to read anything more into it. And we're happy to have the greenish boxes, thankyouverymuch.

[ElricSeven]

Okay, I've gone back and read from page 2 or so and the only thing I've seen that could be construed as a request for handouts was atlvr's suggestion that certain businesses could be subsidized in order to diversify downtown's employment sector. That's all I've seen.

Also, the fact that you're implying a person's wealth reflects their value as a human being makes me a little...uncomfortable.

But whatever, you win. I don't care enough either way to argue about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No implication intended. I guess the point is that the market, and cost of land and construction materials, determines the cost of square-footage Uptown. The only way that things would be made cheaper is to intervene with non-market forces and somehow drive the prices down just to benefit some people who don't want to pay market prices. For those who have made the sacrifice of working hard to pay full price and live in much smaller spaces (often) becuase of the cost, that would be upsetting.

Also, despite how much the concept is thrown around these boards, there is no fundamental right that anyone has to below-market rate housing in Uptown. So, rantings about how Uptown is too expensive and that this is somehow unfair and the only people that live there are rich snobs make me crazy. There's no rational basis as to why Uptown has to be affordable to anyone, and there's no rational basis to say that people with X amount of money have any particular type of personality or interests.

[graydog]

ElricSeven: What is a market force? Is the government a market force?

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Also, despite how much the concept is thrown around these boards, there is no fundamental right that anyone has to below-market rate housing in Uptown. So, rantings about how Uptown is too expensive and that this is somehow unfair and the only people that live there are rich snobs make me crazy. There's no rational basis as to why Uptown has to be affordable to anyone, and there's no rational basis to say that people with X amount of money have any particular type of personality or interests.

Indeed, I agree 100%.

[Rickydavisfan21]

I too agree 150%

[dubone]

i agree there is no fundamental right to below market rate housing, however, its existance in first ward has clearly not hurt your property values, as courtside shares a block with a public housing facility, which has been there for ~a decade. So i'm not sure your argument holds.

Charity is actually a market force, too. demand forces seek the lowest price, supply force seek the highest price, and price is the highest point a consumer can bear where it meets the lowest point the supplier can bear. Charity sets a lower price because suppliers tolerate losses for other non-monetary benefits (like religious, political, or psychological reward).

As a matter of public policy, the local, state and federal governments provide public housing in order to mitigate the adverse social effects of the market forces. the church, families, and individuals don't provide the safety net they did in past centuries at the same time that society's expectations have increased for what to provide the poor. That public policy doesn't have to continue, and they could cut out the charity, but there would be political costs to those who do so, therefore the leaders accept the monetary losses.

but in general, i agree with you, anything that puts at risk the value of the property of those who worked hard to afford that property should be equally protected by government. when my car was stolen, you can bet i made all of your points to the poor policeman that showed up at my door .

[Miesian Corners]

We should also say that uptown isn't the only place where gentrification has taken place. When I moved to Charlotte, Dilworth was cool and funky. I lived at the corner of Park and Ideal Way and half my neighbors were either hippies, artists or counter-culture types. My next door neighbor was a stripper at Leather and Lace. 18 years later, the house I rented recently sold for $480K.

Of all the places I've lived in Charlotte, uptown is the most diverse. My time in 3rd and 1st Wards gave me neighbors who were white, black (one was from Africa, one was from England, the others from Charlotte), hispanic (Mexico, Spain and Guatemala), asian (Vietnamese and Indian), and middle-eastern (Lebanon), not to mention several gay and lesbian couples (and singles). The only other place I've lived that gave me a sense of diversity like that was when I lived in the Studio City area of Los Angeles.

First Ward in particular is near and dear to me. Not a perfect world by any means, but whites and blacks from different socio-economic backgrounds actually DO things together. We went to the movies, parties at each other's houses, camping trips, and even vistied each other's churches. I went to Missionary Baptist on Beatties Ford with my neighbhors, they came to St Martin's Episcopal with me. When my father died, my neighbors who (who happened to have formerly lived in Earle Village) drove 70 miles to SC to the funeral.

[MZT]

I don't necessarily view gentrification as bad when people with the means to care for the neighborhood move in and fix it up. Yeah, the makeup changes, but it's better than absentee landlords and indifferent tenants.

What bothers me more is to see an area corporatize and lose it's local identity. IE, when Ben & Jerry and Outback and Olive Garden move in. That's just a version of upscale blandness... much like pulling off at a freeway exit and seeing MickeyD and Taco Bell.

East Blvd is getting to that point. But Midwood and Wesley Heights still seem "real" to me.

[ElricSeven]

I don't necessarily view gentrification as bad when people with the means to care for the neighborhood move in and fix it up. Yeah, the makeup changes, but it's better than absentee landlords and indifferent tenants.

What bothers me more is to see an area corporatize and lose it's local identity. IE, when Ben & Jerry and Outback and Olive Garden move in. That's just a version of upscale blandness... much like pulling off at a freeway exit and seeing MickeyD and Taco Bell.

East Blvd is getting to that point. But Midwood and Wesley Heights still seem "real" to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMHO, there will always be bad areas for those people that start the process to move into because this whole thing is a cycle.

[Skyybutter]

I don't necessarily view gentrification as bad when people with the means to care for the neighborhood move in and fix it up. Yeah, the makeup changes, but it's better than absentee landlords and indifferent tenants.

What bothers me more is to see an area corporatize and lose it's local identity. IE, when Ben & Jerry and Outback and Olive Garden move in. That's just a version of upscale blandness... much like pulling off at a freeway exit and seeing MickeyD and Taco Bell.

East Blvd is getting to that point. But Midwood and Wesley Heights still seem "real" to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Totally agree with you. I hope the wards in uptown form distinct identities. It will be hard for the very center city area to avoid chains as we already see. All major cities have those. But i hope locals have the chance to add to the vibrancy as well. Homegrown restaurants, etc. Plaza-Midwood, NoDa are priceless areas in this city. Its worrisome when people enjoy Stonecrest in S Charlotte more then say a gallery crawl in NoDa or simply strolling along central in Plaza-Midwood. But thats just my opinion.