Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[baobabs727]

Article re: an update on Norfolk's light rail extension study and other transportation related issues, etc. Rather detailed.

14 routes under consideration. Apparently, the most recent outreach meeting was far more positive, productive and attended by a younger crowd than was the case with the last Virginia Beach meeting.

https://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/getting-around/what-we-learned-at-the-latest-norfolk-light-rail-meeting/article_723d79e5-4c9f-5b03-8eb2-30443f81366a.html

 

Edited June 17, 2017 by baobabs727

[BFG]

I love this part:

• The 14 routes aren’t specifically for light rail. Consultants are also studying Bus Rapid Transit, which some describe as “light rail on rubber wheels,” and streetcars, which have more frequent stops, as solutions. Considering the incredible amount of railroad tracks, underpasses, overhead electrical lines and environmental challenges – namely flooding, consultants say Bus Rapid Transit is still very much on the table as an option.

A mix of BRT and a LRT expansion throughout the city would be awesome. Honestly, I think the former would be a much better option along Hampton Blvd. to the base, as well as along Colley Ave. or Church St. Have the train go to the airport. 

Good to know the tone was more positive. 

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by BFG

[BFG]

HRT plans to present the alternate routes this week, according to WAVY 10.

http://wavy.com/2017/07/17/will-the-tide-go-to-naval-station-norfolk/

[Virginia City]

If it doesn't go through ODU and end at the base there is no point. Two main centers of population that would use it.

[urbanlife]

4 hours ago, Virginia City said:

If it doesn't go through ODU and end at the base there is no point. Two main centers of population that would use it.

That is the most logical extension of this first line. After that, it would make sense to create a second line that runs from downtown to Military Circle and out towards the airport with the possibility of running up to Ocean View.

[jeffconn]

On 7/18/2017 at 2:33 PM, Virginia City said:

If it doesn't go through ODU and end at the base there is no point. Two main centers of population that would use it.

One thing i keep telling people that think that the light rail has to stop at the gates is light rail can go through the base. HRT buses go onto the base every day. The bus stops, a gate guard comes on the bus and checks everyone's ID cards. If you don't have a proper ID, they politely escort you off the bus, and point you to the pass office. No reason that they can't do the same thing for light rail trains. Light rail can go down Hampton Blvd, enter the base, and head over to the piers and other populated areas of the base.

[BFG]

I think BRT or a street car line would be better for Hampton Blvd., esp. if they want to go through West Ghent and behind ODU's campus. I'm just anxious to see something get started!

[baobabs727]

Can Norfolk learn from other cities' rail transit, like Denver? Is linking to ORF a must? 

One reporter's opinion:

https://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/getting-around/i-took-denver-s-rail-system-from-the-airport-to/article_e29f1c55-497d-51fc-ba74-6b52859d1993.html

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by baobabs727

[Arctic_Tern]

Can't say I agree with Mr. Pascale. Denver airport serviced 5 million people this past May. (https://www.flydenver.com/sites/default/files/downloads/May 2017 Management Monthly Flydenver.pdf) ORF serviced 300,000. (http://www.norfolkairport.com/sites/default/files/Enews%26Stats06292017.pdf). The comparison just isn't apt. ORF cannot produce enough riders per day to make an extension there anything but an incentive to try and bring more airlines/flights to ORF. The westside expansion would do a lot more for the day to day ridership.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Arctic_Tern

[BFG]

BRT along Hampton Blvd. or the westside, LRT to the airport, eventually. Streetcars downtown. I'm guessing BRT and streetcars would be cheaper.

[Arctic_Tern]

2 hours ago, NFKjeff said:

I agree with you Arctic_Tern if it were strictly about the airport. ORF will likely never be a hub type airport b/c the FAA will not allow long enough runways, etc. 

I would support the extension running through Ghent/Hampton Blvd. by ODU, but there are other considerations beside just ORF.

 

Westside may prove more costly, the city prob. wants the Tide servicing the Military Hwy corridor as well, and flooding is always a major concern in the westside. I believe both may eventually get a line.

Other than the airport and navy base, where do people actually want to go on the Eastside right now? Are these the type of people that want to take LRT to get to these places, and if LRT does go to these places, is it better than the alternative? The tide has a problem in that it's got a bunch of TOD, and few current destination stops, and they're generally clustered in downtown. On the Eastside, I see those two spots, and potential TOD. Westside alignment gives people places that they actually want to go. It gets actual riders. It gives people a valid alternative to three places that people hate to park at (Ghent/ODU/Base). Depending on the line route, it adds to the TOD value of the Fort Norfolk, and other stops. I love the idea of the Tide, but if you don't give people destinations people aren't going to ride it and it loses its effectiveness as a tool for economic growth. The health of the system is better if we go with the Westside route over the Eastside, in my opinion.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Arctic_Tern

[BFG]

Even though people want the airport, I think until the city decides what to do with Military Circle (other than Movement Mortgage and Optima Health), the Military Hwy. corridor might be on the backburner for a while. If they do anything with Military Hwy., I'm guessing it would be near the airport, the Premium Outlet and IKEA. 

Isn't there a proposed plan that runs from the base/Terminal Blvd. down Little Creek to ORF?

[Virginia City]

Going through Ghent, stopping at ODU and ending at the base is the correct way to go. The sailors and college kids spent their weekend either at the bars in Ghent or Downtown. Light rail and subways are cool because they aren't everywhere, buses are not cool. Those same kids will not use BRT. They will use UBER or Lyft or even drive drunk before getting on a bus. 

After that route is up and running, head up Military Hwy. Stop at Military Circle Mall, Janaf and ORF. Possibly the entrance to Little Creek and end there terminate at East Beach. There looks to be a lot of empty land around an AJ Gators that could spurn some commercial development.

Other than the obvious Town Center and the Oceanfront, what other places outside of Norfolk could light rail go? Greenbriar? Old Towne? Hampton U?

[baobabs727]

Maybe cross the water and head down Campostella to Battlefield Blvd area, then down Volvo over to Greenbrier, and then continue N. on to Military...linking with the future Eastside spur. Essentially  one giant loop from the Base to DT, to BF/GB Ches, to ORF and back to the Base.

[carolinaboy]

12 hours ago, Arctic_Tern said:

Can't say I agree with Mr. Pascale. Denver airport serviced 5 million people this past May. (https://www.flydenver.com/sites/default/files/downloads/May 2017 Management Monthly Flydenver.pdf) ORF serviced 300,000. (http://www.norfolkairport.com/sites/default/files/Enews%26Stats06292017.pdf). The comparison just isn't apt. ORF cannot produce enough riders per day to make an extension there anything but an incentive to try and bring more airlines/flights to ORF. The westside expansion would do a lot more for the day to day ridership.

As much as I would love an extension to the airport, this assessment is spot on.

[baobabs727]

Clearly, Chesapeake. 

The Beach messed this thing up royally.

[lammius]

There's no obvious solution to the west side problem, other than tunneling.

Maybe you could have a branch break off the Tide line onto Boush Street, reconfigure Llewellyn Ave to have a LRT lane, traffic lane, and possibly remove the center island to accommodate the bike lanes too, in each direction.  Then turn 21st and 22nd Streets into one-way pairs with a traffic lane and LRT over to Colley, use that wider part of Colley going north to accommodate LRT with a lane of traffic each way, and then use 26/27th Sts or find a way to meander it up to Monarch Way (do away with the on-street parking) before merging into Hampton Blvd for the run up to the Base.  

As for Chesapeake, yes, it may have 250,000 people sometime soon, but spread over 300 sq miles, there's as much corn as people.  Unless Chesapeake is interested in densifying along a LRT corridor and focusing future growth there, it would be really hard to justify any form of rail transit out there.  Maybe just as a park and ride setup to start? 

[BFG]

Really sucks that the most feasible route, from Newtown Rd., along 64, would have to go through VB. That's almost a straight shot. 

Could the rail line beside the Amtrak station work? Maybe go through South Norfolk to Battlefield and then Greenbrier? I can't think of a route that wouldn't be complicated because of all the sprawl. 

[Virginia City]

I was thinking keep the line going around the hospital loop, have another stop on the other side of the hospital, cut down Redgate back to Colley, head up Colley (cut out street side parking? where is everybody going to park?), stop at 21st St, cut back to Hampton at the train tracks, go up Hampton stop at the Ted, stop at Forman Field, maybe stop at that crapty strip mall at Terminal Blvd that I hear the city wants to renovate, stop at NIT, make the stop at NOB next to the base tour office at Gate 5 and the turn and terminate at the NEX.

[baobabs727]

1 hour ago, lammius said:

There's no obvious solution to the west side problem, other than tunneling.

Maybe you could have a branch break off the Tide line onto Boush Street, reconfigure Llewellyn Ave to have a LRT lane, traffic lane, and possibly remove the center island to accommodate the bike lanes too, in each direction.  Then turn 21st and 22nd Streets into one-way pairs with a traffic lane and LRT over to Colley, use that wider part of Colley going north to accommodate LRT with a lane of traffic each way, and then use 26/27th Sts or find a way to meander it up to Monarch Way (do away with the on-street parking) before merging into Hampton Blvd for the run up to the Base.  

As for Chesapeake, yes, it may have 250,000 people sometime soon, but spread over 300 sq miles, there's as much corn as people.  Unless Chesapeake is interested in densifying along a LRT corridor and focusing future growth there, it would be really hard to justify any form of rail transit out there.  Maybe just as a park and ride setup to start? 

On Boush, I don't follow.   Where's it going to go? The line runs thru the heart of downtown already, so not so much to ask of people to walk a block and a half.  

Llewellyn, with its tree lines and median,  is the nicest looking secondary in that area besides Olney.  The "damage" done by the bike path is only temporary, for they could yank out those wimpy little polls in a heartbeat. But tearing up the median?  I don't think that will ever happen.

As for 21st and 22nd, interesting idea, but the 21st St. business consortium folks would never let it even come up for a vote.   As for Chesapeake, according to projections from UVA (below), they will be at 300,000 by 2040. (Virginia Beach at 500,000. Norfolk at 260,000.)  I agree with you except for the Battlefield and Greenbrier corridors. They have density and will be getting denser. I believe that Mayor K. has expressed some future interest In LRT,  but let's see how his constituents in Great Bridge feel about it. LOL.

http://demographics.coopercenter.org/virginia-population-projections/

Awesome Chart, below! I've been saying this to everyone for years, but I could never find proof. Here it is! In 1990, we were told that the VB pop. would be_____ by 2000, 2010, etc. Now take a look at what could've been...but never was. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by baobabs727

[Arctic_Tern]

I think 21st would be receptive to LRT. A lot of those businesses have private lots, so light rail would probably bring more customers without driving away too many. I could see a line go up Monticello, take a left at 21st, take a right onto Colley, left on 45th, and right onto Hampton all the way to the base. Around 7.5 miles. Potential stops could be: NEON district, Monticello and 21st (with all the apartment complexes), 21st and Manteo (close enough to Colley to be the Historic Ghent stop), Colley and 35th, 45th and Monarch Way/Hampton (ODU stop), Larchmont, Joint Forces Staff College/NIT, NOB.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Arctic_Tern

[lammius]

3 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

On Boush, I don't follow.   Where's it going to go? The line runs thru the heart of downtown already, so not so much to ask of people to walk a block and a half.  

The Tide crosses Boush at Bute Street.  So this branch would take a lane of Boush from that point north.  There are 6 lanes of traffic plus a bit of median on the block between Bute and Brambleton, then 4 lanes north of that (which I don't think are used to capacity by autos).  

Quote

Llewellyn, with its tree lines and median,  is the nicest looking secondary in that area besides Olney.  The "damage" done by the bike path is only temporary, for they could yank out those wimpy little polls in a heartbeat. But tearing up the median?  I don't think that will ever happen.

On Llewellyn, yeah it would stink to lose the median or the bike lanes, but it's one of the only north-south thoroughfares in that part of Norfolk that has enough space between the curbs to make this thing fit along with a couple of traffic lanes.  It's wider than the southern end of Hampton Blvd or Monticello, and carries less traffic (I presume).  

Quote

As for 21st and 22nd, interesting idea, but the 21st St. business consortium folks would never let it even come up for a vote.   As for Chesapeake, according to projections from UVA (below), they will be at 300,000 by 2040. (Virginia Beach at 500,000. Norfolk at 260,000.)  I agree with you except for the Battlefield and Greenbrier corridors. They have density and will be getting denser. I believe that Mayor K. has expressed some future interest In LRT,  but let's see how his constituents in Great Bridge feel about it. LOL.

The 21st Street businesses can consider whether any loss of pass-by traffic is made up for by foot traffic coming from a LRT station or two in their district.  

 

Quote

http://demographics.coopercenter.org/virginia-population-projections/

Awesome Chart, below! I've been saying this to everyone for years, but I could never find proof. Here it is! In 1990, we were told that the VB pop. would be_____ by 2000, 2010, etc. Now take a look at what could've been...but never was. 

Poor Portsmouth.  Or Poortsmouth.  

 

[Virginia City]

7 hours ago, Arctic_Tern said:

I think 21st would be receptive to LRT. A lot of those businesses have private lots, so light rail would probably bring more customers without driving away too many. I could see a line go up Monticello, take a left at 21st, take a right onto Colley, left on 45th, and right onto Hampton all the way to the base. Around 7.5 miles. Potential stops could be: NEON district, Monticello and 21st (with all the apartment complexes), 21st and Manteo (close enough to Colley to be the Historic Ghent stop), Colley and 35th, 45th and Monarch Way/Hampton (ODU stop), Larchmont, Joint Forces Staff College/NIT, NOB.

I agree with you on the going up Monticello then down 21st. Colley gets tight after 28th street which is why I suggested 21st to Hampton; 5 lanes vs 4 lanes. I feel like this could be a second line instead of an extension of the first. From NOB, past ODU, down 21st, down Monticello, split off and head down St. Pauls and meet up there. They could keep going and cross the Berkley bridge and go to the South Norfolk line like they did with Newtown.

[Virginia City]

Or instead of disrupting traffic flow on 21st, turn 22nd into a one way or like on Bute St and have the line go down that way. Most of the business on that road have their entrances right at those cross streets from 21st. That might be better.

[BFG]

Two meetings are scheduled for next week, to reveal the potential route for expansion to the base.

https://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/hampton-roads-transit-to-reveal-route-for-potential-naval-base/article_dfd87a6d-0c5d-519f-9218-0635ca5b0d41.html

My money is on option 2. It seems to be the easiest route. If I'm not mistaken, 26th and 27th Street are both One Way streets, so you could easily dedicate a lane to a light rail car or BRT, the latter of which I hope is part of the plan (the article says it's on the table).

Edited September 12, 2017 by BFG