Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[Virginia City]

Alternative 9-12 are pointless IMO. They miss Ghent and ODU, that is going to make up a majority of your ridership.  Plus 10 and 12 go to Gate 4. You can't get farther away from the waterfront then that and that's where everyone works.

Alternative 5, 6 and 7 are the best options

Edited September 12, 2017 by Virginia City

[urbanlife]

Alternative 5-8 should be the only four choices, they are the best for expanding light rail in Norfolk. Alternative 9 and 11 would be good for a third for fourth line at a later date.  Alternative 1-4 isn't good options for this expansion; it would make more sense to just extend the existing line a stop or few into Ghent and maybe up to ODU at a later date as well.

[BFG]

5-8 are definitely the best, I'm leaning towards 5, along Llewellyn/Boush. I know they just installed bike lanes there, so maybe move the bike lanes to Granby or Colonial, or remove them along parts of Llewellyn.

[urbanlife]

6 minutes ago, BFG said:

5-8 are definitely the best, I'm leaning towards 5, along Llewellyn/Boush. I know they just installed bike lanes there, so maybe move the bike lanes to Granby or Colonial, or remove them along parts of Llewellyn.

Or keep the bike lanes and make it a multimodular route, I didn't know you guys were getting bike lanes, good for Norfolk. Has anyone been using them? Or has anyone been commuting by bike in general there?

[Norfolk757Kid]

A light rail line down Church Street could spark gentrification on a level we haven't seen yet in Norfolk, at least in a pretty long time. If you're considering 5-8, I feel like going down Church or Monticello, where there are more businesses and undeveloped land that has the potential to be high density residential, makes more sense than going down mostly residential Llewellyn. Also a more eastern alignment down Church or Monticello puts a few more neighborhoods like Huntersville and Villa Heights within walking distance of a train stop. 

Edited September 12, 2017 by Norfolk757Kid

[urbanlife]

6 minutes ago, Norfolk757Kid said:

A light rail line down Church Street could spark gentrification on a level we haven't seen yet in Norfolk, at least in a pretty long time. If you're considering 5-8, I feel like going down Church or Monticello, where there are more businesses and undeveloped land that has the potential to be high density residential, makes more sense than going down mostly residential Llewellyn. 

That is my thought as well, Church and Monticello are great areas for redevelopment to happen and for an urban TOD neighborhood to develop.

[BFG]

19 minutes ago, Norfolk757Kid said:

A light rail line down Church Street could spark gentrification on a level we haven't seen yet in Norfolk, at least in a pretty long time. If you're considering 5-8, I feel like going down Church or Monticello, where there are more businesses and undeveloped land that has the potential to be high density residential, makes more sense than going down mostly residential Llewellyn. Also a more eastern alignment down Church or Monticello puts a few more neighborhoods like Huntersville and Villa Heights within walking distance of a train stop. 

I was thinking the same thing about 26th and 27th St., through Park Place. More on the gentrification, not so much new development, although there are pockets of PP that could get a new condo/apartment building or townhouses.

The bike lanes have been pretty successful, from what I've seen. I drive through that corridor a lot, and usually see a few people on bikes during the day...can't remember who it was, but I know I've read of a couple people riding from Park Place or Ghent to their jobs downtown.

[Norfolk757Kid]

Only drawback with 5-8 is any one of those choices makes the existing Colley Ave/Brambleton/EVMS Fort Norfolk station a kind of culdesac. You would have to go around to get there from ODU or the base, probably making the trip much longer. 

[BFG]

42 minutes ago, Norfolk757Kid said:

Only drawback with 5-8 is any one of those choices makes the existing Colley Ave/Brambleton/EVMS Fort Norfolk station a kind of culdesac. You would have to go around to get there from ODU or the base, probably making the trip much longer. 

Looks like you would have to go to the Freemason station, and take it from there. It's too bad they don't have more room for a Park and Ride...that's a bit of a walk from EVMS.

[baobabs727]

1

By the way, gentrification is not always all for the good. There are real negatives, and there are plenty of sticky political implications. 

Edited September 12, 2017 by baobabs727

[Virginia City]

I've never understood this argument, what's wrong with reviving a rundown area? 

[BFG]

I think it depends on how it's done.

With the SPQ proposal, those who live in the projects will be allowed to stay in that area, the apartments on Bute Street. The city has been adamant that it will not price the current residents out. They did a similar thing with Broad Creek, and I believe it has worked. Hopefully, they keep their word.

But, they also did the same thing in the 70s with East Ghent, which is now the townhouses you see along Princess Anne Road, near Maury High and Harris Teeter. I don't see this happening, just like I don't see it happening with the current revitalization going on in Park Place.

IMO, people hear gentrification and think of DC or parts of NYC, where the rent skyrockets. I think this is a bit different, but I also get why people are skeptical. If they go with options 5-8, I expect a lot of TOD along 26th and 27th Street.

[baobabs727]

Displacement, sanitization, homogenization, corporatization, unequal distribution of rewards/gains, political corruption,  welfare for the monied classes and developers, etc.

Again, not all for the good.  As I said. Not all for the bad, either. It's a complex subject which has been studied fairly extensively despite a dearth of empirical evidence. There is no consensus on the matter,  in part because many times people can't even agree to what the term "gentrification" actually means.  And I think sometimes that disagreement is a result of something BFG mentioned above, which is different implications and results generated by differing applications of the process in different locations of the country. 

This is not coming from a progressive. Just so you know. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by baobabs727

[urbanlife]

2 hours ago, Norfolk757Kid said:

Only drawback with 5-8 is any one of those choices makes the existing Colley Ave/Brambleton/EVMS Fort Norfolk station a kind of culdesac. You would have to go around to get there from ODU or the base, probably making the trip much longer. 

That depends, the new line could start in Fort Norfolk, run through downtown and then to the base. It would be a little longer, but not by much and give two lines running from Fort Norfolk and downtown.

[Norfolk757Kid]

2 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

1

By the way, gentrification is not always all for the good. There are real negatives, and there are plenty of sticky political implications. 

Agreed that gentrification is a loaded but also kinda vague word that describes real negatives as well as positives, and that many of the city of Norfolk's past efforts at urban renewal have been more of urban replacement, pushing out poorest residents of the city.  I think the neighborhoods around the proposed line though could really benefit from some real investment. I mean there are whole blocks of empty warehouses still all over Park Place and adjacent neighborhoods. 35th Street corridor, all the new bars and breweries on 24th street. Without "gentrification" those buildings would sit empty forever and crumble.  Things would either stay as they are now or get worse. Parts of what we call gentrification are just natural processes of our cities and their economies. 

[baobabs727]

I have my doubts that running light rail thru those areas is actually going to effect the kind of change you seek.

[Virginia City]

I like 7 personally, it goes up Monticello with a good mixture of apts and businesses. I would cut it left earlier than 26th/27th street though, that goes straight through neighborhoods. I would cut it left at 22nd/23rd street. Both of those are essentially back streets that get little traffic but still close to everything on 21st.

[BFG]

15 minutes ago, Virginia City said:

I like 7 personally, it goes up Monticello with a good mixture of apts and businesses. I would cut it left earlier than 26th/27th street though, that goes straight through neighborhoods. I would cut it left at 22nd/23rd street. Both of those are essentially back streets that get little traffic but still close to everything on 21st.

Only thing about that is, 22nd and 23rd aren't continuous like 26th and 27th. With 22nd/23rd, it stops at Colley Ave., because of the underpass, and would cut through that strip mall.

I do wonder whether a parallel line could run alongside the train tracks at 21st St., all the way over Hampton Blvd. and into Lamberts Point? That would lead to ODU...

[Virginia City]

56 minutes ago, BFG said:

Only thing about that is, 22nd and 23rd aren't continuous like 26th and 27th. With 22nd/23rd, it stops at Colley Ave., because of the underpass, and would cut through that strip mall.

I do wonder whether a parallel line could run alongside the train tracks at 21st St., all the way over Hampton Blvd. and into Lamberts Point? That would lead to ODU...

True, there is enough space down 23rd to have both lines running next to the railroad tracks. At Monticello before the underpass turn right inbetween Ocean Mystic and the Brightleaf Building, circle Brightleaf and head up 23rd. Colley Village shopping center is in a bad spot but I think that's where the line would get elevated above the train tracks to Hampton Blvd.

[carolinaboy]

5,6, or 7 with an extension from the west end of the existing line onto the Sentara property as a final stop on that line.

Also, it should go by the Amazon HQ2.

Edited September 13, 2017 by carolinaboy
Added a comment.

[Virginia City]

I think if the existing line extends west any more would be a stop in Chelsea. BTW I think this will eventually be called the Blue Line since I think the "extension" will be completely separate. 

[baobabs727]

Even the most fervent of proponents of LR around this area have to admit that the Norfolk Tide starter line does not a proof of concept make.  Indeed, ridership levels are low, the project is hemorrhaging cash, and any assertion of a direct, causal link between LR and development/re-development in DT would be specious, at best. 

Of course no one's talking about all of that. Oh, the details, the details.  They are thorny little buggers, aren't they....

Nay, this thread has more or less devolved into a city planner/public transit-wonk type of a discussion that is likely of little to no concern to the vast majority of our local population.  And although I am quite interested in the subject and was once a vocal proponent of extending LR to the Beach, I have always had serious doubts that the attendant, positive economic benefits that pro-mass transit wonks so breathlessly ascribe to LR will actually come to fruition in HR.

Edited September 15, 2017 by baobabs727

[Norfolk757Kid]

Norfolk starter line is only half of the original concept. I think it's unfair to assess the Tide as a failure. It was supposed to be a link between the two cities, so much of the ridership and development that we're not seeing today would have potentially come from the Beach's side. Its hard to judge, because it was built and envisioned to end at least at Town Center which it doesn't.  

 

[BFG]

Norfolk is at least putting the idea out there, and residents here are a lot warmer to the idea than VB. I get the financial reservations, but this area, spread out as it is, needs to depend on something other than just cars/trucks/vans, esp. if they want to lure jobs that are "millennial-friendly". Most tech jobs or something like Amazon are going to require better public transit.

[BFG]

And then there were two...

https://pilotonline.com/news/local/transportation/proposed-norfolk-light-rail-routes-to-naval-base-would-go/article_ffc8932a-44ad-5af3-a66d-ae31600b883d.html

HRT has narrowed down the 14 potential plans to just two. One goes through Park Place to Hampton Blvd., the other is straight down Church St. IMO, they would be insane to not select the option that goes through ODU.

If approved, it could be up and running by 2027.