Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[virginia pe]

Dude, our stupid gov't gave people MILLIONS of dollars to do something, gave them a HUGE BONUS for doing it something sort of on time, then it turns out it's all garbage. Now it has to be torn up, and redone, and they are going to PAY FOR IT AGAIN with OUR MONEY. A private company wouldn't PAY AGAIN. They'd demand it be corrected.

It sounds good - demand it be corrected. A private company would not pay again. But it's not that simple. We don't know who is at fault here.

The contruction contractor did get the bonus, but are they responsible for the settlement? If so, was there a testing lab that was to assure compliance with the design? Why did the testing lab not catch it?

Is the engineer at fault? He designed the work. The article said he used a standard design. Should he have gone beyond a standard design/ Or did the city instruct him to use the standard design in an effort to reduce design fees?

Or maybe it was the geotechnical engineer who investigated the soil before the design got started. Why did he not note the poor soil? Or did the city choose to not do geotechnical exploration along the entire length of the system to save money. Also, if it was the geotechnical's fault, the standard contract for geotechnical services limits their liablilty to the amount of their fee, which is probably not enough to cover the costs of the corrections.

Or maybe it was a geotechincal problem, and it simply did not show up in the geotechnical report. It is not practical to investigate every square inch of ground for a project, so sometimes poor soil conditions are not found until the start of construction, or (heaven forbid) after construction is completed. EIther way, the contractor will be paid for "unforeseen soil conditions". It is one of the most common reasons for construction change orders.

So, for the city to demand it be corrected, they would have to identify the responsible party, which could be difficult. And it is possible the city is partially at fault. It may require litigation, but if it goes to court, the only winners are the attorneys. And there is a chance that the city would lose in court. So in the end, the city would pay. And it would not be any different if it were a private company. IT's one of the realities of construction work.

[brikkman]

It sounds good - demand it be corrected. A private company would not pay again. But it's not that simple. We don't know who is at fault here.

The contruction contractor did get the bonus, but are they responsible for the settlement? If so, was there a testing lab that was to assure compliance with the design? Why did the testing lab not catch it?

Is the engineer at fault? He designed the work. The article said he used a standard design. Should he have gone beyond a standard design/ Or did the city instruct him to use the standard design in an effort to reduce design fees?

Or maybe it was the geotechnical engineer who investigated the soil before the design got started. Why did he not note the poor soil? Or did the city choose to not do geotechnical exploration along the entire length of the system to save money. Also, if it was the geotechnical's fault, the standard contract for geotechnical services limits their liablilty to the amount of their fee, which is probably not enough to cover the costs of the corrections.

Or maybe it was a geotechincal problem, and it simply did not show up in the geotechnical report. It is not practical to investigate every square inch of ground for a project, so sometimes poor soil conditions are not found until the start of construction, or (heaven forbid) after construction is completed. EIther way, the contractor will be paid for "unforeseen soil conditions". It is one of the most common reasons for construction change orders.

So, for the city to demand it be corrected, they would have to identify the responsible party, which could be difficult. And it is possible the city is partially at fault. It may require litigation, but if it goes to court, the only winners are the attorneys. And there is a chance that the city would lose in court. So in the end, the city would pay. And it would not be any different if it were a private company. IT's one of the realities of construction work.

You presented a lot of twist and turns. Are you saying, without knowing the true agreement, there is not way to tell who's at fault? The company build to specs and the fallout is the responsibility of the city/state/fed?

Seems like very shotty work from what I have seen and can't believe the city does business that way. But I guess when it is not your money, WHO CARES RIGHT?

[erdogs]

When is this project supposed to be finished?

[atp4984]

I just did my best to slay wally erb in the comments section of the VB referendum story. I'd suggest you guys try to do the same.

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/07/majority-va-beach-council-favor-referendum-light-rail#comment-948649

Edited July 18, 2010 by atp4984

[ronsmytheiii]

Despite all the naysayers in the comments section, most people who voted in the poll support LRT in VB it would seem. Still, a limited polling pool.

[Sky06]

Congratulate me. This is the 1st post in 5 days.

[calwinston]

You got to be kidding me right! You wait till its completed to complain about your property line being breached!

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/07/lightrail-bridge-piling-private-land-lawsuit-alleges?cid=rltd

[VBIllini13]

You got to be kidding me right! You wait till its completed to complain about your property line being breached!

http://hamptonroads....lleges?cid=rltd

I'm very certain that if this man chooses to sue HRT, he will lose. But I'm sure no lawsuit will be filed. Some compensation will be provided for the small parcel of land that HRT built the piling on and an encroachment will be granted or eminent domain will be used. I don't think anything too big will come out of this.

[Telmnstr]

You got to be kidding me right! You wait till its completed to complain about your property line being breached!

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/07/lightrail-bridge-piling-private-land-lawsuit-alleges?cid=rltd

Lottery ticket. Cause most people can't get far ahead by working, suing the gubbmint is a good way to riches.

[7citiesVA]

Am I the only one who is worried that light rail will fail miserably? Do any of you feel the same way? I use to be excited for this project, but after all the mishaps and cost overruns, Im not too confident that this first line will perform like it should... In hindsight, I actually feel like it was thrown together just to have a line.

[atp4984]

Am I the only one who is worried that light rail will fail miserably? Do any of you feel the same way? I use to be excited for this project, but after all the mishaps and cost overruns, Im not too confident that this first line will perform like it should... In hindsight, I actually feel like it was thrown together just to have a line.

The first line will fail miserably. However, the extensions will save it and position the region for something significantly better in terms of economic and population growth. Blame Meyera Oberndorf for the delay.

[metalman]

No, it was the VB citizenry that voted "NO" on the light rail referendum of the '90's. Meyera as always been a proponent of light rail in Va. Beach.

[atp4984]

No, it was the VB citizenry that voted "NO" on the light rail referendum of the '90's. Meyera as always been a proponent of light rail in Va. Beach.

I stand corrected. It's been a while.

[urbanfan]

Am I the only one who is worried that light rail will fail miserably? Do any of you feel the same way? I use to be excited for this project, but after all the mishaps and cost overruns, Im not too confident that this first line will perform like it should... In hindsight, I actually feel like it was thrown together just to have a line.

The ridership numbers on this line are drastically conservative. All rail lines have overly conservative numbers. There has yet to be a single new rail line open that did not meet it's ridership numbers and that is by design. No one wants egg on their face especially the federal government. The line will meet and exceed its initial ridership quota, no question.

[7citiesVA]

The ridership numbers on this line are drastically conservative. All rail lines have overly conservative numbers. There has yet to be a single new rail line open that did not meet it's ridership numbers and that is by design. No one wants egg on their face especially the federal government. The line will meet and exceed its initial ridership quota, no question.

I truly hope so. I dont want the anti-light rail folks in Va Beach to have anymore ammo than they already have to not support the extension. I want to see it at least go to the oceanfront in this lifetime.

[urbanlife]

I truly hope so. I dont want the anti-light rail folks in Va Beach to have anymore ammo than they already have to not support the extension. I want to see it at least go to the oceanfront in this lifetime.

You also have to remember that these anti rail people are also the same people that were once anti VB getting a downtown. It will be fine, the ridership numbers are not going to be that high, and I am guessing the number forecast for it should be just under what it turns out to be, but as people begin to adjust rail into their lifestyle as well as people taking advantage of it during events. I am guessing the overall rail will fare really well. It will definitely be with the extensions that will help move this forward, but even still you will always have people who swear up and down how much of a waste of money this is because we still have those same people here in Portland, though their arguments often times get very old and are rooted more in hearsay and visual observations without any real facts backing them up.

And for the record, I voted in favor of light rail when it came up for a vote in VB and was so disappointed in people there when it failed. The mayor was definitely for it, but she has always been more for whatever the people of the city wants rather than a take charge do what she felt was right kind of mayor, which that kind of mayor will probably get a lot of things done in a shorter period of time, but will probably get voted out of office just as quick.

[Titoroski]

Test runs? I was downtown today and saw something at TCC about test runs beginning between Norfolk State and Newtown road next month. Any word on that?

[Norfolk4Life]

that is correct. it should begin testing on the eastern end (norfolk state to newtown) in early to mid september. this will mean moving LRT vehicles and the use of all of the crossings. Shortly thereafter, once downtown construction is completed, it will start running the entire length of the line. by federal rules, it has to run 1,000 miles before it can begin revenue service. I think the opening for revenue service will be sometime in May 2011 depending on weather, etc.

[usermel]

Was downtown this week past and must say if nothing else, light rail will and has added character downtown. I see an issue, I mean me and my wifey did. We saw people driving that didnt know how or were to drive relating to the tracks. They seemed to be confused. We said " whats going to happen when light rail trains are on those tracks". Truthfully when it starts there will be an adjustment period for locals because I forget until I see it that downtown now has light rail or soon will that is.

My hope is that when it comes we adjust to the trains and dont drive without paying attention not being used to the trains being there. Think light rail is great for downtown and Im a reformed supporter. Think its going to add to the region and transform it and spread around the metro. Norfolk's making some great moves, little by little. Progress is all we can ask for.L.G.N.M

Edited August 27, 2010 by usermel

[brikkman]

Was downtown this week past and must say if nothing else, light rail will and has added character downtown. I see an issue, I mean me and my wifey did. We saw people driving that didnt know how or were to drive relating to the tracks. They seemed to be confused. We said " whats going to happen when light rail trains are on those tracks. Truthfully when it starts there will be an adjustment period for locals because I forget until I see it that downtown now has light rail or soon will that is.

My hope is that when it comes we adjust to the trains and dont drive without paying attention not being used to the trains being there. Think light rail is great for downtown and Im a reformed supporter. Think its going to add to the region and transform it and spread around the metro. Norfolk's making some great moves, little by little. Progress is all we can ask for.L.G.N.M

My only thoughts on that is that I believe they should have possibly raised the tracks a little throughout DT. That way, it would be clear, do not drive on here, trains ride here. I know that would not work on a couple of streets, but monticello is a good place where they should have raised it a notch higher.

[urbanlife]

It will be fine, for most people there will be a small adjustment to get use to the fact that there are lanes you cant drive on downtown, but once you throw big trains on those tracks it will keep people off of them...though the city will always get that random idiot that has no idea what is going on because they cant take the time to look at what is painted on the road and assume all the lanes belong to them....we still have that problem in Portland with our rail lanes, bike lanes, and bus lanes.

[Titoroski]

I'm very excited to see light rail in Norfolk and for that matter, the 7 cities. I am a bit disappointed in how some of the smaller details in the design have been handled though. For starters(no pun intended), why were such little shelters designed for the stations? Honestly. I have never seen such small house-looking shelters on any other systems other than routes with no shelters, and even then, the platform is significantly raised. I wish corporate sponsors would have taken over there. I see it a lot in large cities. I know their was some talk on a corporate sponsor for the entire system but I believe the stations would have been a great move for that. Maybe this will change in the future. And speaking of the stations, why were the platforms designed so short. This seems to take away the opportunity for expansion when adding cars to the trains.

Also, what happened to the HRT building that was supposed to be built over top of the plume street station? Now it's just a big space. I hope they plan on doing more than just building a park there. Not for nothing, because I love parks but we have to remember that this is Norfolk, not Va Beach. There isn't a lot a space left and we must build up if we want developmental space.

My belief is that maybe, just maybe, Norfolk is really looking at this as "a start" and that by putting something into play, we can have more money in the future to work with. I just think it's interesting that some of theses smaller things were overlooked or handled how they were. No other starter lines I've seen lately look like that. Was Norfolk just that broke?

[usermel]

Yeah Brikkman, I was on Monticello when I saw the people riding on the track when it was clear to me and others that on the tracks was off limits. Its a clear line in the road to the right for passenger cars(automobiles) and to the left for the new light rail. Ok, I can see if they feel its not up and running but, seemed to me that people dont yet get that we shouldnt ride on the rail lines. I think people are smart but, it will take them time. The raised rail idea is great to. Hard to ride on a raised train track,hahahaha!

I truly hope we have zero accidents myself but feel any incident wont be because people arent smart, it will be because for most of our lives unless were pretty long in the tooth rail transportation hasnt been around. Since the trolley cars of early downtown we have basically been without experience of trains all together. Heck, I hope I remember, Im not a downtown employee nor do I go downtown more than 2 times a month! So I try and remind myself that this is a new downtown and to say the least, IM EXCITED! Progress is always one step at a time no matter how much progress is made. I feel Norfolk has set the tone for the metro with light rail to mover forward to becoming a major metro area. Transportation and variations of it are essential to a thriving major metro area and this is the 1st step! L.G.N.M

[lil-bear]

Transportation Hub

I wonder why there isn't any mention of Greyhound bus service with this!!!

[brikkman]

Transportation Hub

I wonder why there isn't any mention of Greyhound bus service with this!!!

I think it can be a really cool development if done right. Under the current design, I still do not think it is enough, however, they did only mention the land that surrounds harbor park immediately. Right across the tracks is prime land for expansion of DT, they just need to open their minds a little. I would say this with regards to the transportation hub/issues in va.beach and norfolk....they need LRT service from the hub and towncenter to the airport...without a doubt.