Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[urbanlife]

Well that is good news, I had a feeling the numbers would be higher than what was forecasted. Hopefully we will be hearing new talks of expansions soon.

[Glassoul]

Well that is good news, I had a feeling the numbers would be higher than what was forecasted. Hopefully we will be hearing new talks of expansions soon.

I'll repeat a post I made on this topic 4.5 years ago:

As for the ridership numbers they're proposing? Pie in the sky. They say at a minimum 6k riders a day, I bet its 2/3 of that MINIMUM number. Sure it'll be a novelty at first for some people, but that will quickly wear-off. You will not get people standing in 85-100 degree heat and humidity for 10-15 mins on a daily basis 6 months out of the year to ride something that covers such a limited area; and having to pay something approaching $3 a round trip to boot.

So I correctly predicted the ridership numbers, and that's still 2/3 of what they said would be the minimum (6k) 4.5 year ago. It's wonderful when you can look like a hero by moving the goal posts a year before startup and then exceed that number cause you've reduced it to some ridicously low figure. As for my last sentence, well.... when you subsidize the cost of a pass to the tune $10/year then that has the effect of artificially bumping your numbers up and destroying your revenue. Wonder how the taxpayers of Norfolk are going to react when they start seeing the net annual operating costs come in each year and realize increased coffee and slurpee sales tax doesn't cover the difference. Wonder whether they would want 2500 paying full fare or 4000 paying next to nothing, $10/yr is a pretty amazing deal to businesses.

Edited February 20, 2012 by Glassoul

[brikkman]

I'll repeat a post I made on this topic 4.5 years ago:

As for the ridership numbers they're proposing? Pie in the sky. They say at a minimum 6k riders a day, I bet its 2/3 of that MINIMUM number. Sure it'll be a novelty at first for some people, but that will quickly wear-off. You will not get people standing in 85-100 degree heat and humidity for 10-15 mins on a daily basis 6 months out of the year to ride something that covers such a limited area; and having to pay something approaching $3 a round trip to boot.

So I correctly predicted the ridership numbers, and that's still 2/3 of what they said would be the minimum (6k) 4.5 year ago. It's wonderful when you can look like a hero by moving the goal posts a year before startup and then exceed that number cause you've reduced it to some ridicously low figure. As for my last sentence, well.... when you subsidize the cost of a pass to the tune $10/year then that has the effect of artificially bumping your numbers up and destroying your revenue. Wonder how the taxpayers of Norfolk are going to react when they start seeing the net annual operating costs come in each year and realize increased coffee and slurpee sales tax doesn't cover the difference. Wonder whether they would want 2500 paying full fare or 4000 paying next to nothing, $10/yr is a pretty amazing deal to businesses.

I guess it depends on how you view it as well, wouldn't it? In one sense, you suggest that they are not or should not make changes to their forecast? Either way you slice it, the feds approved it before the money was given. Now, we can debate about its economical use/viability, but that's a different subject as I see it.

and I guess you have to figure out how you view public transportation, is it for profit or is it to help your local economy? Most of us agree on this board that it is not a financial winner; however, we look to other reasons why we support it.

[jeffconn]

Here's an article talking about the 6 month anniversary of the Tide from a Washington, DC blog.

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/13781/ride-the-tide-of-light-rail-virginia-beach/

Ride The Tide of light rail, Virginia Beach

In the article, the author includes his dream map of the Tide going to the VB oceanfront.

http://g.co/maps/pk53j

I have to admit that i didn't think of cutting through the trailer park to get to the VB Convention Center. It makes sense. BTW, besides the normal naysayers, the commenters talk about the possible routes to the Naval Base.

[zeppelin14]

I also agree that instead of just stopping at the oceanfront at 19th Street, go north to at least Neptune Park.

[brikkman]

Generally speaking, numbers are up about 1000 riders now that the warm weather is moving in. I call that a successful year and I'm no confident this will be our low numbers moving forward.

Monday yielded 7800 riders ( I think it was a tides game) but the 4th of April yielded 7600 riders, anything going on that day? I was in atlantic city making it rain, LMAO.

[BFG]

I wanna say the 4th was opening day for the Tides...they played the Orioles in an exhibition game.

[Ghentite]

Pilot article today on Norfolk trying to decide whether to move the Bus Transfer Facility to St. Paul's or Harbor Park. I'm in favor of building up the Multi-Modal Transportation Center at Harbor Park while it has momentum.

http://norfolklive.blogspot.com/2012/04/downtown-bus-transfer-facility-to.html

[mikeas]

Make it work at Harbor Park... No need for it to be in the center of downtown with a light rail stop already at Harbor Park. The multi-modal makes sense. Ideally build it in the ground level of a garage and be sure to lay it out so a couple city blocks can exists over there.

If traffic flow is an issue then connect City Hall Ave to Park Ave.

[brikkman]

Well, it is time to starting having a real discussion what that area should be, that is why it is so hard. They can't keep piecemealing everything without having a real plan that they are trying to achieve.

Sounds like an issue of creative development if you ask me, that means nothing will happen at all in this regard.

[BFG]

I rode from the EVMS stop to the DMV Select office yesterday, and the ridership was pretty nice for it being midday. Saw a mix of young and old, including an elderly couple in front of me.

When I got off at the City Hall stop, there was actually an exchange of people hopping on and off. I definitely like The Tide's chances; at the very least, expand to ODU, the base, and the airport.

This November, I think the VB residents in favor of expansion can outweigh the narrow-minded ones worried about "crime" coming to their parts of town. In 9 months, there haven't been any additional problems in Norfolk, and I don't see the crime rising in VB as a result of this.

[jeffconn]

In the "everything old is new again" department, a company wants to restart ferry service across the harbor.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/traffic/exclusive/dp-nws-fast-ferry-20120718,0,2587076.story

The article mentions Harbor Park as a possible boarding area for the ferry, but not downtown. I'm all for another mode of transport that would make Harbor Park a true multi-modal center.

[BFG]

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/08/tide-marks-first-birthday-free-rides-friday

Ride the Tide for free on Friday, in celebration of its one-year birthday. The Pilot article notes that 1.6 million have jumped aboard, and it averages about 5,000 a day. I think that's a little less than double what they were hoping for. Not bad!

[urbanlife]

That is good news, I hope they are talking about future lines for the city. I am guessing expanding the original line will be first.

[brikkman]

Just seen the article and photos, congrads NOrfolk.

I will say one thing, I thought it was poor taste to have NSU band there considering they were against LRT and cost the city an extra 11-14 million for a station change....Then again, leadership has changed since then....

[urbanlife]

I am curious about the stations for the light rail, did they design them to handle two cars or do they look like they are about to expand to two cars because I was noticing in some photos I was looking at that they might only be designed for one car and that would make it tough to expand the system if ridership goes up. Typically light rail is designed to for two cars even if the system starts out with just the one.

Also, living in Jersey now, I use the light rail regularly here to get to downtown Jersey City and Manhattan. The system that runs through Jersey City sort of reminds me of what they must of built in Norfolk and there are currently two lines running though Jersey City, with one of the lines being an off shoot to another part of the city. Besides expanding the original line and possibly to VB (provided they ever get on board with this) which I think it important, as well as running a new line to Chesapeake, what other part of Norfolk would you like to see a second line run to?

Obviously it would be good to run the original line upward to ODU if not NOB, but if there was a second line built within Norfolk where would you like to see that line run to and then have it connect up with the original line in downtown.

Also it would be pretty cool if there ever was a line that connected Norfolk and Portsmouth, giving the area a sort of subway line in a sense.

Anyway, just bored and thinking and it seems that the cities I love and care about have all been very stagnant in recent years and I can't wait to see them all growing again.

[brikkman]

I am curious about the stations for the light rail, did they design them to handle two cars or do they look like they are about to expand to two cars because I was noticing in some photos I was looking at that they might only be designed for one car and that would make it tough to expand the system if ridership goes up. Typically light rail is designed to for two cars even if the system starts out with just the one.

Also, living in Jersey now, I use the light rail regularly here to get to downtown Jersey City and Manhattan. The system that runs through Jersey City sort of reminds me of what they must of built in Norfolk and there are currently two lines running though Jersey City, with one of the lines being an off shoot to another part of the city. Besides expanding the original line and possibly to VB (provided they ever get on board with this) which I think it important, as well as running a new line to Chesapeake, what other part of Norfolk would you like to see a second line run to?

Obviously it would be good to run the original line upward to ODU if not NOB, but if there was a second line built within Norfolk where would you like to see that line run to and then have it connect up with the original line in downtown.

Also it would be pretty cool if there ever was a line that connected Norfolk and Portsmouth, giving the area a sort of subway line in a sense.

Anyway, just bored and thinking and it seems that the cities I love and care about have all been very stagnant in recent years and I can't wait to see them all growing again.

I hear you.

I just relocated to Bmore (3 weeks ago) and take the metro into work everyday. A bit crowded but totally embraced by everyone in the area. I live in Owings Mills Md, the last stop and work at Johns Hopkins, the last stop, so I ride the entire length everyday. Its little hundreds if not thousands of people who ride on my way in to work. Its pretty quick which is an added bonus and I skip alllll the traffic. The funny thing is, they have one line with 13 stops over a 13 to 15 mile span, two tracks. It does the work, someone had a plan. And although it is weird that it doesn't go any other place, its still well used by everyone. Of course, bmore has it all, commuter rail, metro, LRT, and bus line. All get a healthy number of ridership.

Norfolk problems is, they do not capitalize off opportunity and they are uninspired. Couple with co-city tension, you see the bulk of the problems in the area.

[urbanlife]

I hear you.

I just relocated to Bmore (3 weeks ago) and take the metro into work everyday. A bit crowded but totally embraced by everyone in the area. I live in Owings Mills Md, the last stop and work at Johns Hopkins, the last stop, so I ride the entire length everyday. Its little hundreds if not thousands of people who ride on my way in to work. Its pretty quick which is an added bonus and I skip alllll the traffic. The funny thing is, they have one line with 13 stops over a 13 to 15 mile span, two tracks. It does the work, someone had a plan. And although it is weird that it doesn't go any other place, its still well used by everyone. Of course, bmore has it all, commuter rail, metro, LRT, and bus line. All get a healthy number of ridership.

Norfolk problems is, they do not capitalize off opportunity and they are uninspired. Couple with co-city tension, you see the bulk of the problems in the area.

Yeah, I hear you with living in a different city, which granted I live in the NYC metro now which is much bigger than Norfolk obviously, but I have always wanted to see Norfolk be more like Baltimore. I think Norfolk is the city of missed chances and uninspired leadership that has it in the position it is now. I really hope they get that leadership they need and that push they need to re-inspire the city. I would love to see Norfolk act like the big city it should be.

[zeppelin14]

A line they really need to make is from the Military Highway stop, go north on Military Highway with stops at Military Circle Mall, Janaf (south), Walmart or Farm Fresh parking lot, Northhampton Blvd, Norview Ave., Airport.

[lammius]

Also, living in Jersey now, I use the light rail regularly here to get to downtown Jersey City and Manhattan. The system that runs through Jersey City sort of reminds me of what they must of built in Norfolk and there are currently two lines running though Jersey City, with one of the lines being an off shoot to another part of the city. Besides expanding the original line and possibly to VB (provided they ever get on board with this) which I think it important, as well as running a new line to Chesapeake, what other part of Norfolk would you like to see a second line run to?

Hi neighbor!

Being a Jersey City resident myself these days, I imagine Norfolk's LRT through the lens of experience with the Hudson-Bergen LRT too. I think the way HBLR has expanded in the 12 years it's been running is a bit different than how Norfolk's system will expand. HBLR has been expanding by adding an extra stop or two down the line in all directions. The first segment was from Bayonne 34th Street to Exchange Place. Then it was extended to Pavonia-Newport, then Hoboken. When I moved here it ended at Hoboken 9th Street before it was extended to Port Imperial and ultimately Tonnelle Ave. Bit by bit the system has grown.

Talk about expansion in Norfolk is bigger-scale. An extension to the Oceanfront or to NOB would more than double the length of the system. The good thing about an extension to the Oceanfront is you have a rail ROW in place already that you can start with. An extension to NOB or the Airport using alignments in VDRPT's vision plan (Mil Hwy, Hampton Blvd, etc.) would require a new ROW from scratch. Looking at a rail map of Norfolk, there are a few interesting possibilities. If you look at the freight line that comes across the Eastern Branch and lands at Harbor Park (where the Amtrak station will be), it splits a bit north of Harbor Park. To the left it goes toward Ghent and Lamberts Point. That could be an interesting way of getting north of the constraint that is the narrow streets of Ghent, and you could have the train join up with the quite wide Hampton Blvd to get to ODU and NOB. If you look at that split again and this time go right, it goes straight to the Airport. So you could have a transfer station at Harbor Park and people could switch to trains going uptown via the ODU/Hampton Blvd corridor or toward the Airport.

Also, near Ingleside there's another freight rail line that crosses the Eastern Branch. That line goes up through Wards Corner and to the Base. So you could have a transfer station between Ballentine and Ingleside for service to the Base.

The best part about these options is that they (for the most part) avoid on-street operation and use existing rail rights of way (and maybe the existing trackage?). This assumes, of course, there are sufficient windows in which freight service doesn't use all of the capacity. Next time I'm at my workstation I'll have to highlight these lines in Google Earth or something.

Edited August 23, 2012 by lammius

[urbanlife]

Definitely do some highlighting, I am trying to imagine the lines you are talking about, but I do think the ideas sound good for possible expansion.

As for the Bergen line here, the only thing I don't like about it, other than it isn't just an expansion of subway lines from the Path, is the downtown portion, I do wish they would of done some form of tunneling through downtown Jersey to make that portion of the line move quicker without the sharp turns that it needs to take, plus it would of made connecting to the Path easier by having underground connections. But those are really minor complaints that would of cost a fortune to do, but overall the line is decent for what it does and I do think it is a great model for Norfolk to follow, more so that Portland, Or where I was living for the past decade because there line is more of a pinwheel design for a region that is much different than Norfolk.

I like the idea of the line running up to the airport from Harbor Park, which much of that could be like the line that runs down to Bayonne where it runs next to freight rail tracks, but is on its own separate system.

Edited August 25, 2012 by urbanlife

[lammius]

I've posted a .kmz on dropbox, you can go check it out.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dxv2ib8ys6akdi1/Tide%20Extension%20Ideas.kmz

The yellow line shows the existing Tide service

The red line shows an extension to NOB via existing freight rail ROW and Hampton Blvd

The green line shows an extension to the airport via existing freight rail ROW

The blue line shows an extension from east of Ballentine up to NOB via Wards Corner on existing freight ROW

The light orange shows an extension to Portsmouth via an improved Midtown Tunnel. This looks silly on a map, but so does every other proposed extension to Portsmouth that I've seen. It's in the streets quite a bit, but at least connects major employment centers (Naval Hospital, NNSY, Olde Towne/NTelos) and could offer an opportunity to redevelop that silly industrial park.

The dark orange line is just craziness, extending the Portsmouth line into a loop back to Harbor Park. In theory you could have a train that just makes the loop over and over.

Forgetting about Portsmouth for now, the lines in Norfolk make some sense at this level. Again, I'm not sure how much freight traffic still operates on any of these lines, but you can get to some of the major attraction/employment spots using fairly straight lines. If the red or blue lines were developed you could offer a special service during peak periods that runs from Newtown Road (or points in Va Beach eventually) to NOB without requiring passengers to transfer at Harbor Park. Kind of like WMATA's Rush + service, and have it do skip-stop like the HBLR Bayonne Flyer.

[urbanlife]

You could combine a few of those lines so that there are up to 4 train lines running through downtown.

I think the only good way to extend a line to Portsmouth would be very expensive, which would require a tunnel by the downtown tunnel and basically creating a subway line that goes under near harbor park and comes up in downtown Portsmouth....but again, very expensive.

Also, the dark orange line would be even better to run it down to Poindexter before hopping onto the 464, which it then could run down to Chesapeake for a park and ride. Personally I would love to see Old South Norfolk return to being a strong urban community in the region and would love to see it become Chesapeake's actual downtown, which I definitely think a rail line through the area would be a needed shot in the arm.

I could definitely see the green extension be the second extension to the line, which would make since seeing it connects to the airport. The red extension I am not so sure about, would it be worth the time to travel all the way around downtown to get to downtown from NOB or ODU?

Edited August 30, 2012 by urbanlife

[Ghentite]

The push for High-Speed Rail to/from Norfolk just cleared a hurdle: http://norfolklive.blogspot.com/2012/09/high-speed-rail-recommended-in-norfolk.html

[brikkman]

Wow I see ridership numbers are up by a solid 2000. That's pretty good.

I guess people are starting to see the benefit in it.

Living in bmore, its a staple and it doesn't even go a lot of places (METRO).

Between LRT, Metro, and the marc, this place is pretty covered.