Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[Norva757]

HRT CEO is pushing for BRT to the base now

Project Update: August 2021 — Naval Station Norfolk Transit Corridor Project

Edited September 2, 2021 by Norva757

[vdogg]

I suppose it’s better than nothing. Being phase 2 maybe we can revisit the rail option if the military highway extension takes off.

[BFG]

My head hurts. Five years of studies and this is what they come up with?

[Norva757]

Here is a few reasons why it won't be happening anytime soon for lightrail to the base. They seem to think the feds (FTA) will not approve funds for the project to the base

 

The Tide needed a ‘miracle’ to get started 10 years ago. What does its future hold? - The Virginian-Pilot (pilotonline.com)

Edited September 2, 2021 by Norva757

[ronsmytheiii]

9 hours ago, vdogg said:

I suppose it’s better than nothing. Being phase 2 maybe we can revisit the rail option if the military highway extension takes off.

I think BRT gets a bad reputation (and I have been there before) But I think if you look at how successful it has been in Richmond, it isnt a bad start or way to go.

 

Plus, if they really want they could try guided busways on the old rail alignment. Works well for the Cambridge/Cambridgeshire area:

 

[vdogg]

9 hours ago, BFG said:

My head hurts. Five years of studies and this is what they come up with?

It was 20 years before the first shovel of dirt was turned in St. Paul’s. This is actually pretty quick by Norfolk standards. 

[BFG]

Looking at the map, I see BRT would cross Military Hwy. at Azalea Garden Rd., near the airport. If they could put a stop near Robin Hood or Miller Store Rds. where that back road to the airport is, I wonder if the airport would pay for a shuttle or even a tram to the main terminals?

[urbanlife]

On 9/1/2021 at 8:21 PM, BFG said:

My head hurts. Five years of studies and this is what they come up with?

Not that any of this will happen, but just looking at this map, I can see directions the city should go with light rail and BRT.  Bus Rapid Transit from the Naval Base to Military Circle does make sense, what doesn't make sense is stopping light rail at Military Circle. Light rail should run up to the airport and have multiple connections with BRT during that stretch. It would help maximize the two transportation systems.

From there, a second light rail line should run up Granby to Oceanview, through downtown, and over into South Norfolk.  From there, the city could expand BRT to where light rail doesn't go and have the two systems working together.

[urbanvb]

HRT is having meetings to discuss BRT and light rail expansion.

https://www.wtkr.com/news/hrt-hosting-public-meetings-to-discuss-proposed-tide-expansion-to-military-circle-bus-rapid-transit-to-naval-station

[Arctic_Tern]

Can't wait to have 7 years of meetings and consultations and reports to eventually decide that actually we can't do BRT.

[carolinaboy]

On 9/1/2021 at 11:21 PM, BFG said:

My head hurts. Five years of studies and this is what they come up with?

I'm still baffled no light rail extension to ODU.

My daughter's college campus has 2 light rail stops. It allows students, particularly ones without cars, to easily access other areas of the city. I feel ODU and the rest of Norfolk would benefit greatly by light rail. Get those kids off campus easily to downtown to the bars and restaurants and shops. Put a stop at teh football stadium to give folks from other areas of the city access without having to find parking.

 

If a study needs to be done, study the economic impacts of large student bodies utilizing transit to access commercial establishments away from the campus area. I bet it would show a great benefit for Norfolk to add light-rail to ODU.

Edited October 13, 2021 by carolinaboy
added thought

[BFG]

From what I remember, they couldn't come up with a feasible plan that would allow light rail to ODU. I thought it would've been a no-brainer as well.

[Virginia City]

No one gives a crap about busses. 

[Norva757]

18 hours ago, Virginia City said:

No one gives a crap about busses. 

Its all HRT cares about

[varider]

https://www.virginiabusiness.com/article/laying-tracks-for-the-tide/?fbclid=IwAR3GgSv-0T7HRvvZKr81OD-w5SXzRlNRrry4SRpWLeqF0zCh_FHx7ltIRHY
 

positive article about expansion to military circle— 

[BFG]

I mean…the ridership is low because it goes from Newtown Road to EVMS, with no true destination except downtown. How do they not realize this? Had it run to ODU, the base, or the airport from the beginning, it would be a much different story. 

No comment on the need for another study. 

[Up2313]

6 or 7 years before they break ground on a 2.2 mile segment. Just disappointing. 

[Mountain_Junior]

I mean…the ridership is low because it goes from Newtown Road to EVMS, with no true destination except downtown. How do they not realize this? Had it run to ODU, the base, or the airport from the beginning, it would be a much different story. 

I agree with you but I think the folks at HRT understand why the ridership is low, however I think they’re forced to use that as one of their criteria for how they rank these options. Unfortunately, the fact is that they have to make a case to council about why one option over another - a case that council members can then make back to their critics and constituents about why they voted to put the city further into debt.

It would be political suicide to vote yes on something based on how HRT feels about it without data to justify that feeling. So I think that necessarily anchors HRT to certain metrics: ridership, cost per mile to build, cost per mile per year to operate, etc.

I went to one of HRT’s community discussion pop-up things at Ward’s Corner with the exact concerns you mention (ODU, airport, LRT vs BRT, etc) and after spending over an hour talking to them and asking some pointed questions about the project, I was satisfied. I’ll say that I still would prefer to see light rail instead of BRT to the naval base and would love to see ODU connected as well, but after talking to them I felt like at least I understood the many constraints that they are working under to develop this project. And while it doesn’t match with what I had in my mind (which frankly is not based on reality, but on desire), it is the best project we are going to get. So it may not be the perfect gleaming thing we all think we deserve, but whatever form it takes, I feel certain that it’s that way because a bunch of smart, committed professionals tried to deliver the best they could, within the constraints of the political and economic environment, to people who want an expanded transit system.

Not trying to tell you how to feel about it, but just wanted to add some other perspective on what I know is a frustrating issue. If you’re able, I’d recommend trying to get to one of their future meetings. I think they enjoy talking through these issues.

[mintscraft56]

Why are they obsessed with bus. I hope they remember that its not the only way to get around here. 

[Mountain_Junior]

They are not obsessed with the bus. You are assuming that.

First, BRT is different from the normal buses you see operating for HRT. Think of them as light rail on wheels. Google “bus rapid transit” to see what I mean. They often have dedicated travel lanes and priority at lights. They aren’t the lumbering, stuck-in-the-right-lane, stop-every-five-minutes buses you’re imagining.

Second, HRT came to the BRT option because their mandate for this project is to extend fast public transit to military circle and naval station Norfolk. That doesn’t necessarily mean light rail though. Unfortunately the costs vs benefit of extending light rail to NSN makes it a politically and economically difficult option, so they are leaning toward a BRT system to accomplish their mandate.

I don’t love it either, but I think it’s the best we’ll get.

[Norva757]

I'm not assuming. I know because I work there

[Qdeathstar]

No one is getting on a bus. A train yes, a bus no. It’s a psychological thing. Everyone here knows what BRT is.

[wrldcoupe4]

BRT is better than you think!

[Mountain_Junior]

I'm not assuming. I know because I work there

Why the bus obsession then?

[Mountain_Junior]

No one is getting on a bus. A train yes, a bus no. It’s a psychological thing. Everyone here knows what BRT is.

First, I think reality pretty clearly proves that your “no one is getting on a bus” statement is wrong. HRT ridership numbers are below. I get the perceived difference in quality between bus and light rail (which I brought up to HRT myself as something they should think about) but maybe rethink the “no one is getting on a bus” statement.

Second, why would everyone here know what BRT is? To me that makes as much sense as saying “everyone in Topeka knows what the HRBT is” so I’d like to know why you think BRT would be well understood here when most of the population has never been exposed to it.