Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[Glassoul]

Hopefully Vabeach will work with Norfolk on this! Maybe Vabeach is finally opening their eyes to Light rail! They should be looking to go all the way to the Oceanfront with it, not just stop at the TC.

I don't want to p*ss on everyone's parade, but I remain extremely skeptical of the potential for development of light rail outside of DT, and I'm not entirely convinced it will succeed even there. As someone who relys entirely on mass transit (in a city that is supposed to have one of the best systems in North America), my unscientific observations are that a majority of people who use mass transit do so only out of necessity. As soon as they are financially capable, they substitute away for automobiles. Ultimately for mass transit to be succesful it must be near large neighborhoods, and the costs associated with using an automobile must be high (as evidenced by the FTA's attempt to get Norfolk to create artifical parking shortages). I contend that for most people, mass transit is an inferior good.

The other part of the problem is the cultural element of getting people to accept the idea of having to walk more than 10 yards from their house to transport. Ask yourself this, how many times have you sat as a passenger in a car, while your friend/family/acqaintence, etc. spent 15 minutes try to find a place to park that was within 5-6 slots from the building entrance (when other spaces were available further out)? I hope I'm pleasantly surprised about this one, but I have doubts. Feel free to offer contradictory points on why this isn't a huge waste of federal money.

Edited February 8, 2006 by Glassoul

[sugoiben]

Ask yourself this, how many times have you sat as a passenger in a car, while your friend/family/acqaintence, etc. spent 15 minutes try to find a place to park that was within 5-6 slots from the building entrance (when other spaces were available further out)? I hope I'm pleasantly surprised about this one, but I have doubts. Feel free to offer contradictory points on why this isn't a huge waste of federal money.

Ya know, that's a funny point about the parking thing. Growing up in Va. Beach, that seemed to be

the normal thing. Try and find a close spot, cause odds were, that there was one.

Now I live in NoVA. That was one thing that really struck me up here. Don't bother try to find a close

spot, just find a spot period. First one you see, snag it, cause you're more likely to circle for 30 minutes

and have to follow someone to take their spot as they leave.

I used to commute from Va. Beach to downtown Norfolk regularly. And parking was never an issue.

Traffic on 264 was the problem. If there is any impetus to making people get out of their cars and

hop on the light rail, then I would imagine it would be to escape those backups on the highway. Creating

an artificial parking shortage, while I can understand the thinking of how that creates just another

reason to take the train instead, I don't think it's nearly as big a factor for deciding which transport to

take today. Granted once the current building boom downtown finishes, maybe it will be an issue.

[monsoon]

For the 2007 Budget Year, the Norfolk Light Rail project is still in the design phase. The FTA has decided the cost models that were used were a bit optimistic and have asked for further work. However the project, at the moment, has an over all status of Medium which is the minimum required for funding these days. The FFGA (Full Funding Grant Agreement) most likely will not come until the 2008 funding year at the earliest.

Since the original document, which was released this week, was in Word, I have converted it and rehosted it so you can have a look at the details.

Norfolk Light Rail Transit - 2007

[vdogg]

Wow, thanks. I am very optimistic on this project, it seems like it is on track. I was downtown the other day during rush hour and the buses were absolutely packed. I don't think ridership will be as much of an issue as initial cost and expansion issues. We have to start somewhere though and I think in the end this will really be a benefit to the region.

[hoobo]

DT/Fort Norfolk/Ghent is a good area for LR. As those areas expand and grow into one another, the scale becomes too large for walking yet not not practical for driving. I don't doubt success of LR in Norfolk.

However, I too question its cost/benefit for VB at this time. No doubt that the ROW should be acquired because in the future LR will be needed as traffic increases on 264 and the Blvd. The argument could also be made that LR would spur more development at Newtown/Greenwich and at Pembroke, but development is already occuring at a good pace. I wonder if TC would be overwhelmed by park'n'riders using the free garages if LR is built.

Although the success of LR is debatable, I believe regional rail would be an unquestioned success. Connecting the major employment centers would definitely reduce traffic. Instead of driving to NNSB from your home in Great Bridge, you could park at a transit lot near Greenbrier Mall and ride the train to the Peninsula. Planning of such a system needs to gain priority over further expansion of LR beyond the Downtown and TC corridor.

[urbanlife]

I figured the VB council would jump on this without voter support.

[urbanfan]

What we all are forgetting is that the main ingredient to mass transit is park and ride. Just like on most transit system, extending the line through virginia beach is not to provide people the ability to walk on to the transit system, it is to provide a place for people to drive and park there cars and take the train into town. The only place that would be possible to walk on in virginia beach is town center/pembroke area. All others would be park and ride, which is where many people come from to ride into town. Just look at D.C. for the example. Thousands of people drive to park and ride lots and park there cars instead of traveling the highway to escape the mess.

[Padman]

What we all are forgetting is that the main ingredient to mass transit is park and ride. Just like on most transit system, extending the line through virginia beach is not to provide people the ability to walk on to the transit system, it is to provide a place for people to drive and park there cars and take the train into town. The only place that would be possible to walk on in virginia beach is town center/pembroke area. All others would be park and ride, which is where many people come from to ride into town. Just look at D.C. for the example. Thousands of people drive to park and ride lots and park there cars instead of traveling the highway to escape the mess.

One problem we have is that the parking in garages at Town Center has been stipulated to be free to the public --I believe in perpetuity. There would be no easy way to control parking for LRT ridership there, meaning there would probably be significant opposition to placement of a station at Town Center under the present parking arrangement. Something would have to give.

[vdogg]

One problem we have is that the parking in garages at Town Center has been stipulated to be free to the public --I believe in perpetuity. There would be no easy way to control parking for LRT ridership there, meaning there would probably be significant opposition to placement of a station at Town Center under the present parking arrangement. Something would have to give.

I believe that Dicks parking garage has excess capacity that could be allocated to light rail. currently that excess is allocated to construction workers in the district.

[urbanvb]

currently that excess is allocated to construction workers in the district.

I noticed. Just ride up the elevators and you can tell.

[Padman]

I believe that Dicks parking garage has excess capacity that could be allocated to light rail. currently that excess is allocated to construction workers in the district.

They do now, but none of the TC parking facilitiies will have any spaces for TC workers and visitors if people use them for park and ride. The City agreed to keep the parking free of charge as part of their negotiations with TC development interests when the garages were City subsidized. This is an not an insurmountable problem, but it's an obstacle to getting a light rail station at TC soon.

[rusthebuss]

They do now, but none of the TC parking facilitiies will have any spaces for TC workers and visitors if people use them for park and ride. The City agreed to keep the parking free of charge as part of their negotiations with TC development interests when the garages were City subsidized. This is an not an insurmountable problem, but it's an obstacle to getting a light rail station at TC soon.

They could build garages next to the LR and possibly wrap around the LR station.

[hoobo]

I believe that Dicks parking garage has excess capacity that could be allocated to light rail. currently that excess is allocated to construction workers in the district.

One problem we have is that the parking in garages at Town Center has been stipulated to be free to the public --I believe in perpetuity. There would be no easy way to control parking for LRT ridership there, meaning there would probably be significant opposition to placement of a station at Town Center under the present parking arrangement. Something would have to give.

For now Dick's does have excess capacity. But the PAC, adjacent office building, and Block 9 developments have no parking. Parking at AH is already tight and parking at Westin, Cosmo, and Tower 2 won't be enough to allow Dick's to be excess parking. As more garages are built as part of new Pembroke CBD projects, parking fees will materialize. Without a parking permit or validation (e.g. from PAC), garage users will have to pay. That should regulate park'n'ride abuse.

[lammius]

Padman is right. It's not an insurmountable problem. HRT could develop its own deck for light rail commuters and offer a one-stop payment (where you pay the parking fee and for your light rail ticket together) to make things easy. In addition, HRT could enter an agreement with a nearby residential developer to share parking (to be used mostly by light rail commuters during the day and residents overnight), thereby keeping infrastructure costs a bit lower.

Furthermore, Town Center doesn't have to be a destination Park & Ride. If the area around the station is densely developed and generates enough pedestrian & connecting transit demand HRT won't have to rely on Park & Ride to make that a viable station. Large Park & Ride facilities can be located at stations in less developed areas where it's cheaper to build parking infrastructure and easier for cars to get in and out of the area.

[urbanvb]

If the area around the station is densely developed and generates enough pedestrian & connecting transit demand HRT won't have to rely on Park & Ride to make that a viable station. Large Park & Ride facilities can be located at stations in less developed areas where it's cheaper to build parking infrastructure and easier for cars to get in and out of the area.

That is exactly the way it is in DC. Most if not all of the large park and ride stations are located in the burbs and less if any in the District.

[erdogs]

That is exactly the way it is in DC. Most if not all of the large park and ride stations are located in the burbs and less if any in the District.

True, but there is a parking garage on just about every block in the district. Edited February 9, 2006 by erdogs

[lammius]

True, but there is a parking garage on just about every block in the district.

But those aren't Park & Rides. How many people drive into the district to park at the MCI Center and ride the Metro out to Silver Spring? I doubt WMATA owns or contracts with the general purpose decks in the district.

[urbanlife]

you cant charge someone to park in a park and ride garage. How would that increase ridership? Here in Portland, the park and ride garages and parking lots are free, but once they are full they are full.

The TC would probably act more as a destination stop than a park and ride because of the amount of traffic in that area all ready. A seperate stop in the Pembroke area would be needed for a true park and ride in that area.

[erdogs]

But those aren't Park & Rides. How many people drive into the district to park at the MCI Center and ride the Metro out to Silver Spring? I doubt WMATA owns or contracts with the general purpose decks in the district.

I learned to park in a garage in d.c. after I found my first $100.00 parking ticket. After that $25.00 for 24hr parking seemed like a bargain. I know what your saying though, other than the people staying in hotels at tc, no one would be willing to pay to park and then pay the light rail. Maybe in 10 or more years when thousands of people will actually live, work and play in the tc will charging for extended stay parking be practical. Park and ride's work best in the outlying suburban areas where land is cheaper. Edited February 10, 2006 by erdogs

[vdogg]

Screw light rail. We need this in Norfolk Japanese maglev video.

[wrldcoupe4]

you cant charge someone to park in a park and ride garage. How would that increase ridership? Here in Portland, the park and ride garages and parking lots are free, but once they are full they are full.

The Metro parking decks at metro stations in suburban DC definitely charge for parking. in fact for most of them, a parking pass (metro pass or something to that effect) is required to even leave the deck (I think the card alone costs $10). Then you have a positive balance on the card to pay for parking, which ends up being $3-4 I think.

[lammius]

you cant charge someone to park in a park and ride garage. How would that increase ridership? Here in Portland, the park and ride garages and parking lots are free, but once they are full they are full.

Parking is never free to construct or manage/maintain. Transit agencies often require parking fees to help cover those costs. Granted the parking should be subsidized so that it is still an attractive option for commuters. That's why most Park & Rides charge only a few dollars per day. Sometimes that charge is simply added to the cost of a ticket from a Park & Ride station, so that the commuter often doesn't even know a portion of their transit fare is a parking fee. Whether Portland's transit agency uses that method, or has just decided to eat the cost of parking infrastructure there's no telling.

Monthly parking at my nearest Park & Ride station is $95/month according to the NJ TRANSIT website. The waiting list for a space is 6 years.

[urbanlife]

but in Hampton Roads with light rail starting up, they would be better off going the way Portland has by not charging for park and rides and working it into the cost of the tickets. you will always attract more riders when they think they are being charged less.

On the other hand parking tickets seem to be really high on the east coast, while here up in the northwest seem to only cost a few bucks.....weird.

[Former Resident of HR]

One problem we have is that the parking in garages at Town Center has been stipulated to be free to the public --I believe in perpetuity. There would be no easy way to control parking for LRT ridership there, meaning there would probably be significant opposition to placement of a station at Town Center under the present parking arrangement. Something would have to give.

what is the problem? Parking is time limited already so all they would have to do is enforce it. Workers could get decals or hang tags, limit parking to 2-3 hours for customers and make a note of tags that park for 8-9 hours more than two or three days consecutaively. After a warning, they would get a ticket or get towed. Problem solved.

[urbanlife]

is the garages in the TC really time limited? I remember why they said they were going to make them free garages, it was because of the ample parking lots at the Pembroke Mall people would end up using for free if the TC charged.