Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[gosscj]

AWESOME! This is a done deal then? We're definitely getting light rail?

[rusthebuss]

I wonder when they will start now that they have been cleared by the feds?

[urbanlife]

sweet, good for norfolk.

[okinawatyphoon]

Great news! I wanna be one of the first to ride!

It'd be quite cool to have urbanplanet represented at the opening somehow. You ALL should be there if at all possible. I remember two years ago when the first monorail opened where I am, i was there the first day and it was so EXCITING!

[vdogg]

Actually, it looks like there may still be one (1) more step, but that should come very soon.

Federal agency approves part of starter rail

The Federal Transit Administration on Wednesday signed off on a nearly 3-inch -thick environmental impact statement that Hampton Roads Transit has worked on for six years .

While calling it a "milestone," transit officials are still awaiting an endorsement from federal regulators that would make the $203.7 million project a reality.

With the environmental documents approved, local officials are cleared to begin negotiating the purchase of the seven homes and three businesses that the line would run through.

Townes said one of two remaining hurdles has been cleared in getting final design approval. Federal transit officials had questions about parking downtown, but they have indicated they are satisfied with Norfolk's new parking policy that limits parking garages and encourages transit use.

[willy]

This is some real good news!!

I will be REAL surprised if they do this project for $203.7 million. Bare bones or not, I don't think this amount will cover it.

[monsoon]

I don't want to rain on your parade here, but now the hard part begins. This just means that Norfolk can get in line with everyone else in the USA requesting funds to build a transit system. It doesn't mean the funds are going to be granted by Feds. Once the final costs are known, the FTA will evaluate it for cost effectiveness and give it a recommended or not recommended decision. The earliest this will happen will be for the 2008 funding year as they have already alloted the money for 2007.

The current administration and congress, despite their rhetoric are very reluctant to fund transit having only made $1.5 billion available for the entire USA in 2007. As a result the criteria for getting this money is very very tight given there are about $45 billion in requests and Norfolk is but a part of that. From a quick read here on UrbanPlanet.org there are at least a dozen new systems that are in the same state as the Norfolk system, and they will all be requesting money next year. If the government wants to end the "addiction to oil" they really need to fund transit better. $1.5 billion is nothing in the federal budget.

I do think that $203 million is very low for a light rail line unless this is more like a street car system and it runs on grade with vehicles.

[urbanfan]

I don't want to rain on your parade here, but now the hard part begins. This just means that Norfolk can get in line with everyone else in the USA requesting funds to build a transit system. It doesn't mean the funds are going to be granted by Feds. Once the final costs are known, the FTA will evaluate it for cost effectiveness and give it a recommended or not recommended decision. The earliest this will happen will be for the 2008 funding year as they have already alloted the money for 2007.

The current administration and congress, despite their rhetoric are very reluctant to fund transit having only made $1.5 billion available for the entire USA in 2007. As a result the criteria for getting this money is very very tight given there are about $45 billion in requests and Norfolk is but a part of that. From a quick read here on UrbanPlanet.org there are at least a dozen new systems that are in the same state as the Norfolk system, and they will all be requesting money next year. If the government wants to end the "addiction to oil" they really need to fund transit better. $1.5 billion is nothing in the federal budget.

I do think that $203 million is very low for a light rail line unless this is more like a street car system and it runs on grade with vehicles.

Actually, we are already figured into the FTA'a 2007 budget. You can review the document here. They put us along with others in the other category because they expected us to clear the necessary hurdles to start final design and construction. Final design should begin sometime in the next few months, and HRT has already hired the necessary engineers and lawyers for the project in anticipation of the decision. A full funding grant agreement would be the first priority for HRT and its lawyers. Considering the FTA has held our hand this far I expect to continue to see them do the same through this process. Lets not forget also that the head administrator for the FTA is from Hampton Roads (Jennifer Dorn). As far as the pricing is concerned, yes most of the track is on abandoned freight lines, only a small portion runs through city streets and only one elevated platform exists. All but one crossing will be at grade, so yes our project is considerably cheaper than most. I much prefer an at grade crossing anyway, it kind of gives everyone the impression that if you want to drive a car, fine, but you'll have to wait for those who gave up there cars to pass first.

[monsoon]

This is actually old news as I posted that entire funding request for Norfolk some time back in this thread. This is only a request and no allotment of funds for Norfolk in 2007.

There is a complete topic here on UrbanPlanet that summarizes all of the transit funding allotments for 2007. As you can see there are dozens of systems that are further along than Norfolk. All are requesting money, and very few actually got any. These are the only systems in the USA that got funding to actually build something in the 2007 budget.

Until the FTA isssues a "recommended" for Norfolk, there are no guarantees for federal funding.

[gosscj]

This is actually old news as I posted that entire funding request for Norfolk some time back in this thread. This is only a request and no allotment of funds for Norfolk in 2007.

There is a complete topic here on UrbanPlanet that summarizes all of the transit funding allotments for 2007. As you can see there are dozens of systems that are further along than Norfolk. All are requesting money, and very few actually got any. These are the only systems in the USA that got funding to actually build something in the 2007 budget.

Until the FTA isssues a "recommended" for Norfolk, there are no guarantees for federal funding.

If all this is old news, why have we continued to hear that pending FTA approval, which we seem very close to obtaining, we would have an operational system by 2008? Since this project does not appear to be included on the federal budget for 2007, is there any real need for the city and the FTA to reach an agreement on the structure of the proposed plan? Maybe, if indeed we will have to wait at least a few years anyway, our planners might spend more time improving the project, which I am excited to see go forward but still have reservations about the usefullness of the proposed route.

[gosscj]

I just read through the link to the FTA's budget request that urbanfan provided and was surprised to read this:

In 1997, FTA first approved an 18-mile LRT system extending between the cities of

Norfolk and Virginia Beach into PE. The Draft EIS for the project was completed in

April 1999. In November 1999, Virginia Beach voters did not approve a local funding

measure for the project, resulting in the truncation of the project at Kempsville Road

within the city limits of Norfolk. FTA approved the abridged project into PE in October

2002. A Supplemental Draft EIS was completed in January 2003. Since that time, HRT

has undertaken additional scope and cost reductions that have resulted in the current 7.4-

mile alignment.

I was not aware of this history.

[rusthebuss]

I just read through the link to the FTA's budget request that urbanfan provided and was surprised to read this:

I was not aware of this history.

Your not aware of the "Norfolk Element"? They don't want us Norfolk people over there causing problems.

[monsoon]

If all this is old news, why have we continued to hear that pending FTA approval, which we seem very close to obtaining, we would have an operational system by 2008?

Well honestly, I have found that newspaper articles are the worst when it comes to getting information about passenger rail projects. The fact remains that until the FTA rules on the cost effectiveness of the line and hence the recommended, not recommended qualification, there are no gaurantees for the Norfolk line. If all goes well they could start construction as soon as that ruling occurs without it actually being placed in the budget, but that means the local transit authorities will be taking a risk.

[urbanfan]

Well honestly, I have found that newspaper articles are the worst when it comes to getting information about passenger rail projects. The fact remains that until the FTA rules on the cost effectiveness of the line and hence the recommended, not recommended qualification, there are no gaurantees for the Norfolk line. If all goes well they could start construction as soon as that ruling occurs without it actually being placed in the budget, but that means the local transit authorities will be taking a risk.

The reason that we were in the 2007 budget report is that the FTA expects final engineering to go forward by the end of the year. That is why along with several others there was a category for others put into the budget. The only part the FTA has to rule on is the cost effectiveness, which already had a high rating. The worst it could go is medium.

[monsoon]

This report that I posted a couple of months ago indicates the current rating for the project is medium. However it is also noted the FTA has some concerns about the numbers put forth by the HRT. This is a quote from the report....

"Pending further analysis of Norfolk

[vdogg]

If all goes well they could start construction as soon as that ruling occurs without it actually being placed in the budget, but that means the local transit authorities will be taking a risk.

Norfolk city council has approved $64 million dollars this year to be allocated to the first phase of light rail construction. I think they were always counting on the funds at a later date but I most certainly believe those funds will come. Of the projects that have made it to the stage we are at currently, only 2 haven't gone through. Those 2 being Orlando and Honolulu and only because their respective city governments withdrew support. Getting the cost estimates more in line with what the FTA thinks they should be is indeed a hurdle, but a small one judging by history. I think the current timetable for construction to begin is mid to late 2007.

[vdogg]

^^^Actually, after looking over the proposed budget 6.4 million has been allocated. The total cost to the city when done is projected to be 68.6 million.

[monsoon]

.... Of the projects that have made it to the stage we are at currently, only 2 haven't gone through. Those 2 being Orlando and Honolulu and only because their respective city governments withdrew support. ...

This is where the newspaper got it wrong with that quote. Many systems get it through the EIS where Norfolk currently stands but that is no guarantee of approval. Raleigh's TTA completed EIS sometime ago, and despite the Feds giving them $20 million this year, the final recommendation from the FTA was Not Recommended. That system is currently on hold. (and they have been working on it since 1994)

What the newspaper should have said was that systems receiving a "Recommended" rating from the FTA get built.

[rusthebuss]

So is that enough to get it started? or are we going to have to wait for the federal approval.

[monsoon]

So is that enough to get it started? or are we going to have to wait for the federal approval.

You are going to have to wait for federal approval since the locals expect for 50% of the cost to be paid by the Feds. The last thing anyone wants is for a local goverment to spend $100M on a line that never gets finished. Norfolk can choose to pay for the entire line themselves as this has happened before. (Houston is an example). If that happens, then it really doesn't matter what the FTA does.

[willy]

Norfolk can choose to pay for the entire line themselves as this has happened before. (Houston is an example).

This is what I said back page 6

If Norfolk doesn't get the funding from the feds this time they may want to think of a way to fund it themselves along with help from the state. It may mean Norfolk loses money upfront during construction and it will lose money yearly for operation costs. But the economic development around the rail line will/should help recoup some/all of the lose. Houston's METRO had no federal funding for their starter line and they are already seeing development along the line. I know Houston is in a totally different weight division than Norfolk, but it goes to show you that it can be done.

[rusthebuss]

I don't think the state will help Norfolk with footing the bill if the feds don't give them the money.

[wrldcoupe4]

And I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that it would be Norfolk asking for the funds. The state simply is not allocating enough funds for any rail projects anywhere in the state. When the state finally set aside rail specific funds, much of that went to the freight companies (NorfolkSouthern/CSX) when we should be devoting those tax dollars to passenger rail initiatives. For this fiscal year, the state devoted a total of like $35 million to all rail projects in the state. Until the current view of rail transit by the state changes, all anyone could hope for is a drop in the bucket.

[monsoon]

BTW, I posted the above not to put down Norfolk, but to make it clear to you guys on what it takes to get federal funding for a transit system these days. Every other city in the USA is facing the same issues with federal funding. One of the reasons that funding is so sparce is because the politicians don't think it is important to the people so I encourage all of you, and anyone else reading this, to contact your legislators and let them know where you stand on this issue. The more people that speak out, the more support there may be in the future. If the Norfolk line opens and is successful, I can see where there would be additional plans to expand it and the more supportive the state and federal governments are, the faster these expansions can be implemented.

[tuffsim]

I found this website today and it is a pretty excellent description of the light rail project.

http://www.geocities.com/greg_vassilakos/n...norfolk_lrt.htm