Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[urbanlife]

As much as I would love to see Hampton Roads and Norfolk get light rail. I honestly don't think it will be any more successful than buses in that region. It will be stopping in low income housing, the same low income housing that middle class in that region is afraid of.

I mean I could be wrong, but when I was living there, that seemed to be the mindset of the people there and I think this will carry through to the light rail.

If this light rail was more about getting people from their homes to work (meaning from the house to NOB) I think you would have more military use it because they would be getting to work probably 15-20 minutes faster at certian times, plus would be saving money on gas, and would allow some of the young Navy guys live further from the base. Plus this would help change the mental image of public transportation as a people mover for the military and something people in that region would be less afraid of.

Seeing this line is going to be too short for that starting out, I think it would of been a better option for the city to introduce the streetcar to help connect Ghent to downtown as well as the "to be designed" East Freemason. I think this connection for Norfolk would help strengthen its bond within its city. Eventually running a line up to ODU. Then from that, they could run a light rail line up to the airport, or do a loop through the city.

There are too many egos in each city government there, that if Norfolk begins to brag about how well connected their city is with public transportation, I think other cities would jump on board, especially Portsmouth and West Portsmouth.

Now no one take this as negative talk, I am just pointing out an option I feel is better for the city of Norfolk.

[rusthebuss]

I was thinking maybe if ODU could ever get Maglev working they could run that down Hampton Blvd. to connect to the light rail station that ends at Ft. Norfolk. Just a wild idea. Hampton Blvd. is really skinny and running an I beam down there would be perfect..

[vtfan18]

I think the proposed rail line is appropriate for Norfolk. If we wait around for the entire region to collectively agree on building the rail system, it'll never happen! Let's look at the alternatives, build more roads and highways? Thats not going to happen considering we can't even pass a transportation budget. By the time they ever build another hampton roads bridge tunnel, it'll be too late and we'll need two more to meet demand. Norfolk is smart, people in our region are set in their ways and are old school. They would never welcome a mass rail line bridging all cities. But if they make the project successful, it'll encourage the rest to follow in their footsteps. The rail line allows the opportunity to meet future demand and connect with other lines in the future. Street cars do not provide that type of flexibility considering the eventual longer distances covered.

[urbanlife]

I think the proposed rail line is appropriate for Norfolk. If we wait around for the entire region to collectively agree on building the rail system, it'll never happen! Let's look at the alternatives, build more roads and highways? Thats not going to happen considering we can't even pass a transportation budget. By the time they ever build another hampton roads bridge tunnel, it'll be too late and we'll need two more to meet demand. Norfolk is smart, people in our region are set in their ways and are old school. They would never welcome a mass rail line bridging all cities. But if they make the project successful, it'll encourage the rest to follow in their footsteps. The rail line allows the opportunity to meet future demand and connect with other lines in the future. Street cars do not provide that type of flexibility considering the eventual longer distances covered.

Well that depends on the type of streetcars, there are different levels. Hell Tacoma put in a light rail system that is just a streetcar. But streetcars do help increase connections within a city and Norfolk would be the perfect size city to have a network of them. Some form of larger rail will be needed fo the rest of the city, but at the present moment I think the proposed light rail will be a waste and once it develops a bad image, and in that region it will. It will be hard to get that thing excepted in the region.

The fact that the region is set in its ways is very true which is why the transit in that area suck right now, I don't see light rail being the bandage for the mentality of the area.

This is one of the great reasons why I felt I needed to leave my hometown for good.

[rusthebuss]

I think the people are turning around and I think the area will prove you wrong. There is a lot of people that believe in this area and want it to improve.

[mercuex]

Nothing is free! A couple of dollars won't really deter people and will help sustainability a huge deal. I don't know how people think of public funds as being in the abstract, that they are somehow disassociated from the taxes that continue going up ...

How much money would be siphoned from other good projects to make this thing "free?" How much would taxes have to get raised otherwise? How much of the new money would be wasted on pointless overhead, accountants, middlemen, bureaucrats, and their busybodies?

[spiker3]

Mark the day n time, because it's going to happen. Either immediately before or after Norfolk opens their light rail, or even just gets construction going, Virginia Beach is going to announce their addition of a corridor to the ocean front. Three or four years ago it was presented as a group package, the voters smashed it. Norfolk says, we'll front the cost, since the perception used to be Norfolk ideas with Va Beach's money. There is too much potential for Va Beach to lose money at Town Center and the Oceanfront unless they latch onto this. They already bought the corridor from Norfolk Southern (i heard) it's only a matter of time. This phase has to be looked on as an introductory phase, Norfolk puts it out there, development continues around the stations, and Virginia Beach comes on board immediately. It's a lock!

[Greekboy80]

I just hope they run it up Hampton Blvd to the naval station. If they want riders, that is gonna be huge.

If they run it to the ocean front to DT and up to the naval station. It will be a huge success! Then that will spur conncetions all around the cities. Maybe down little creek and back down Granby st. maybe Down independance rd... there are so many possibilities!

[vaceltic]

Mark the day n time, because it's going to happen. Either immediately before or after Norfolk opens their light rail, or even just gets construction going, Virginia Beach is going to announce their addition of a corridor to the ocean front. Three or four years ago it was presented as a group package, the voters smashed it. Norfolk says, we'll front the cost, since the perception used to be Norfolk ideas with Va Beach's money. There is too much potential for Va Beach to lose money at Town Center and the Oceanfront unless they latch onto this. They already bought the corridor from Norfolk Southern (i heard) it's only a matter of time. This phase has to be looked on as an introductory phase, Norfolk puts it out there, development continues around the stations, and Virginia Beach comes on board immediately. It's a lock!

It's a shame is that it will take Virginia Beach many years after they decide to put a rail line in place to actually get funding for it. Norfolk has been working on light rail for 10 years to get funding from the FTA and has only been considered worthy enough for it this past year. Virginia Beach will need alot of analysis and studies to prove to the FTA they deserve funding. They are lagging behind too much on this, the referrendum in the late 90's was a stupid idea.

[Padman]

The ballot language on referendums has to be carefully crafted in order to be neutral and objective. Democracy can be pretty fickle sometimes, and people can be too easily led by a phrase or even a certain adjective. I think that's a flaw in the California ballot initiative system.

Virginia Beach really is divided on the LRT issue though, and many would agree that if Norfolk could get their starter line built, VB might get on board. The Catch 22 is that the system might not pass muster with the Feds without VB included. However, the Norfolk Southern right of way will be preserved for some kind of transit option. I think that one thing that has decision makers perplexed is how to handle the need to elevate much of the track so as not to interfere and endanger the heavy north south traffic at Newtown, Witchduck and at Independence, Rosemont and Lynnhaven. That need represents a large investment, perhaps one that could potentially serve something faster and better than light rail someday.

Access to the Norfolk Naval Base was already examined as part of the LRT study a few years ago. The best option appeared to use some rail right of way roughly parallel to I-64, not Hampton Boulevard. Things broke down a little over the insistance that this line would directly serve the airport. (aside note) This same sort of dilemma delayed BART's extension south to SFO in San Francisco for several years.

[gosscj]

They are lagging behind too much on this, the referrendum in the late 90's was a stupid idea.

In Virginia Beach, referenda on public works projects generally are stupid ideas.

[urbanlife]

I think the people are turning around and I think the area will prove you wrong. There is a lot of people that believe in this area and want it to improve.

I do hope you are right with this one. I just got tired of people there not being excepting to changes like this. Heck I am happy to see the town center taking off the way it has and Norfolk is building up the Fort Norfolk area, something I was once told was a lost cause for seeing any potential in that area back in 99.

[gosscj]

Check this out!!!

Norfolk light-rail line passes federal review

[vdogg]

Check this out!!!

Norfolk light-rail line passes federal review

Sweet! This is great for Norfolk (and a proper response to all those doubters out there that thought we couldn't make it. ).

[urbanvb]

Indeed it's awesome news. This could be the catalyst also for more rail too. Hopefully one day VB (in the not so distant future) will also connect their line continuing to the TC and the Oceanfront. Congrats to Norfolk!

[lammius]

AWESOME! WTG Norfolk!

The most surprising thing of all is that the public comments to this news story so far have been overwhelmingly positive and intelligent responses!!!

[rusthebuss]

My doubt is the state funding. I'll believe it when I see it. We can't get any roads built and the transportation budget is stalemated right now. If it does go on and get built it will be without state money until they get a budget passed. If when the budget passes I'm still worried they won't approve this.

[gosscj]

That article says funding for the project is already allocated in the state budget. Also, since it will take so long to complete, does anyone think there's a chance Va Beach or Portsmouth will get started (or at least planning) before the Norfolk line is finished?

[rusthebuss]

That article says funding for the project is already allocated in the state budget. Also, since it will take so long to complete, does anyone think there's a chance Va Beach or Portsmouth will get started (or at least planning) before the Norfolk line is finished?

Norfolk started in 94 so I don't know if that is possible. So many cities are trying to get mass transit I don't know if they would be able to compete with those other cities. Thats why I think they need to come at it together for it to work in favor for this area.

[lammius]

New starts are risky endeavors, so it's not likely any extension will be moved forward before the starter line is up, running, and its ridership and revenue assessed. It's possible you could see an extension up and running about five years after the starter opens in places where a right of way exists (i.e. Va Beach) but probably much longer in places where one doesn't (i.e. Portsmouth).

[Sky06]

We have to start somewhere, and this is the place. Ridership in 3 years? That would be awesome. We could see a spur to ODU, NIT, and NOB in another 2-3 years after that. I think that could be doable since the hard part has already been done. Of course, as long as we have the needed rail line.

Then, spurs to Portsmouth and Chesapeake 3 years after that. Spurs to Peninsula and NC 3 years after that. Spur to Canada 5 years after that. And finally spur to VB 5 years after that. Just kidding.

Edited September 3, 2006 by Sky06

[urbanlife]

one thing about norfolk's light rail idea that really interests me is that if the timing is right, they could be in the middle of reconstructing east freemason and turning that into a dense urban neighborhood to downtown which would really help change the view people have about light rail.

In the end it is just one of those this that time will tell, for now we need to be happy there are still people seriously fighting for this.

[gosscj]

When you talk about East Freemason, are you refering to the major condo/apartment developments along Boush and Brambleton?

[urbanfan]

Norfolk started in 94 so I don't know if that is possible. So many cities are trying to get mass transit I don't know if they would be able to compete with those other cities. Thats why I think they need to come at it together for it to work in favor for this area.

The whole reason norfolk's line took so long is because of Virginia Beach backing out and Norfolk having to basicaly scrap the existing plans and start all over. An extension to Virginia Beach or Portsmouth would not take nearly as long as getting the initial line did. We would already have had light rail if the Beach had not backed out. There would have been no questions as far as ridership and it would have been a much more functional line. Now that Norfolk has it, Virginia Beach will be lining up asking HRT to extend the line at least to Town Center. It will happen.

[lammius]

The whole reason norfolk's line took so long is because of Virginia Beach backing out and Norfolk having to basicaly scrap the existing plans and start all over. An extension to Virginia Beach or Portsmouth would not take nearly as long as getting the initial line did. We would already have had light rail if the Beach had not backed out. There would have been no questions as far as ridership and it would have been a much more functional line. Now that Norfolk has it, Virginia Beach will be lining up asking HRT to extend the line at least to Town Center. It will happen.

I think it will happen too, but certainly not tomorrow. I don't even know that a Va Beach portion ever made it beyond DEIS.