Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[scm]

These are among the most critical roads projects in the region, particularly the "3rd" crossing and new Midtown tube.

Would you entertain the thought that possibly what is really needed in HR are "transportation" projects, not "roads" projects?

[Henry_Ryto]

Only marginally. Here are the only projects eligible for HRTA funding:

3rd Crossing

I-64 Peninsula Widening

New Midtown tunnel tubes

Route 460

SE Parkway

The only rail element in any of that is there is a provision for two "multi-modal" tubes in the Third Crossing. There is no other money for light rail expansion of any type. There is NO provision in the Midtown plans for rail tubes, despite the fact that the westernmost terminus of the starter segement is less than 300 yards from the entrance to the Midtown ---- and without rail tubes in the expanded Midtown, Portsmouth is shut off from light rail service for decades.

There is also no money for improved passenger rail services in the HRTA funding -- though this survey was about traffic problems, and passenger rail isn't really designed to address that.

The citizenry understands that we can't pave our way out of this problem -- it is a capacity problem, and the only cost effective way to address capacity, especially when water crossings are involved, is expanded light or even commuter rail. We get it -- why don't the politicians?

I agree about light rail through the Midtown Tunnel, and have previously stated such in a few forums. Not only for Portsmouth, but eventually extending to the proposed new airport on the Suffolk/Isle of Wight line.

Also, elsewhere I have pushed for transit funding among the pending HB 3202 changes. 2-3 cents on the Gas Tax would mean a huge difference for bus service.

[Telmnstr]

What's the projected ride time to run the entire length of the track?

If I hop in my car at what would be the Freemason station, it takes me 14 minutes to get to the old office I had off of Witchduck.

How slow are the stops going to be? Is the system intelligent enough to blow thru stations if no one is there?

[Chesapeake Pirate]

How slow are the stops going to be? Is the system intelligent enough to blow thru stations if no one is there?

I hope all the stops are complete stops....it will make getting on and off easier .

I may certainly be missing something, but how could a train know before it gets to a station that there is no one there intending to get on?

And even if it were that smart and knew that no one was intending to get on at the next station, how would it know whether a rider already on the train might want to get off?

I have ridden light rail in Salt Lake City and San Diego and recall no such smart features. Is this new technology?

[virginia pe]

What's the projected ride time to run the entire length of the track?

If I hop in my car at what would be the Freemason station, it takes me 14 minutes to get to the old office I had off of Witchduck.

How slow are the stops going to be? Is the system intelligent enough to blow thru stations if no one is there?

I found an old article from October 30, 2005 in the HRT Archives that says the ride is 22 minutes, end to end.

http://www.gohrt.com/lrt/HRT_Archive.asp

Edited September 27, 2007 by virginia pe

[levarforever]

All this light rail talk has gotten me all psyched. I can't believe this is finally happening. Thank God

[urbanfan]

What's the projected ride time to run the entire length of the track?

If I hop in my car at what would be the Freemason station, it takes me 14 minutes to get to the old office I had off of Witchduck.

How slow are the stops going to be? Is the system intelligent enough to blow thru stations if no one is there?

Light rail vehicles are not driverless. They are still manned vehicles. Stops at stations are mandatory, mainly because the clearances between the platform and the train are very minimal, any bit of swaying from speed on the track and you would scratch the sides of the trains.

[Telmnstr]

I hope all the stops are complete stops....it will make getting on and off easier .

I may certainly be missing something, but how could a train know before it gets to a station that there is no one there intending to get on?

And even if it were that smart and knew that no one was intending to get on at the next station, how would it know whether a rider already on the train might want to get off?

I have ridden light rail in Salt Lake City and San Diego and recall no such smart features. Is this new technology?

I was thinking it would be easy enough to have a button, or perhaps turnstiles...

It wouldn't be hard to do. *shrug*

[Telmnstr]

Light rail vehicles are not driverless. They are still manned vehicles. Stops at stations are mandatory, mainly because the clearances between the platform and the train are very minimal, any bit of swaying from speed on the track and you would scratch the sides of the trains.

BLAH. No good. This is 2007.... Make the platform pull in or something. It's not hard to do this so that it's driverless.

They do it at Busch Gardens. A little bit of hydraulic juice is all it would take. Limit switches say if it's stuck out, train slows down.

No need to have drivers moving empty train loans of people, like the busses :-)

MAGLEV, the real solution. Blight Rail is LAME.

[brikkman]

So by my calendar, Monday makes the date huh?

I'm excited even though I can not foresee when the other cities (at least the southside) will get on board...

[Henry_Ryto]

So by my calendar, Monday makes the date huh?

I'm excited even though I can not foresee when the other cities (at least the southside) will get on board...

Virginia Beach will get onboard in due course:

1. Will we have to wait until after the November, 2008 City Council election? Does City Council pull the trigger at their November Retreat?

2. Is it to Town Center, or all the way to the Dome site?

[Chesapeake Pirate]

Virginia Beach will get onboard in due course:

1. Will we have to wait until after the November, 2008 City Council election? Does City Council pull the trigger at their November Retreat?

2. Is it to Town Center, or all the way to the Dome site?

I think you are right.

Virginia Beach didn't care about having a downtown until Norfolk's dowtown resurgence.

Once Norfolk's light rail system is under construction, I predict Virginia Beach will take another hard look.

I suspect they will at least at first limit their consideration to Town Center. My perception is that they still consider the beach to be mainly for tourists who stay in the hotels. I don't think they can wrap themselves around a system that would make it easy for non-hotel stayers to make their way to the oceanfront.

[lil-bear]

I don't know why people keep on thinking that the oceanfront isn't accessable via public transportation.

Buses run to the resort area, so what's the difference between LR and buses? Whats the big deal?

[brikkman]

I don't know why people keep on thinking that the oceanfront isn't accessable via public transportation.

Buses run to the resort area, so what's the difference between LR and buses? Whats the big deal?

Money......

and not enough conjestion vs workers to justify it.

Edited September 27, 2007 by brikkman

[abak]

I agree about light rail through the Midtown Tunnel, and have previously stated such in a few forums. Not only for Portsmouth, but eventually extending to the proposed new airport on the Suffolk/Isle of Wight line.

Also, elsewhere I have pushed for transit funding among the pending HB 3202 changes. 2-3 cents on the Gas Tax would mean a huge difference for bus service.

New airport? Is this the long ago proposed mega international airport that was to serve both HR and Richmond or part of the new inland terminal between 460 and 58? The new inland port is supposed to be modeled after Alliance Texas which has an airport (frieght only).

[Henry_Ryto]

New airport? Is this the long ago proposed mega international airport that was to serve both HR and Richmond or part of the new inland terminal between 460 and 58? The new inland port is supposed to be modeled after Alliance Texas which has an airport (frieght only).

In 2001 the Virginia Department of Aviation proposed a new airport for Hampton Roads along the Suffolk/Isle of Wight line. The proposal has largely sat moribound.

I don't know why people keep on thinking that the oceanfront isn't accessable via public transportation.

Buses run to the resort area, so what's the difference between LR and buses? Whats the big deal? <_<

With Virginia Beach's greenfields north of the Green Line nearly exhausted, the only rational growth strategy is to do TOD in the Norfolk Southern Corridor.

[lil-bear]

Money......

and not enough conjestion vs workers to justify it.

Let me re-phrase that......

What's the difference between people riding LR to the resort area VS riding the bus to the resort area.

Don't city leader realize that people who ride public transportation can already get there via bus!

Wasn't that one of the lame excuses that city leaders gave for originally opposing LR to the resort area?

[Henry_Ryto]

I have it from HRT: the Signing Ceremony will be at the MacArthur Memorial at 1:30 on the 1st.

I just found out this afternoon that the Signing Ceremony is Invitation Only. This is due to the limited seating in the auditorium. Do not come without an Invitation; you will be turned away at the door.

I found out - and managed to snag an Invitation - when I attended this afternoon's TDCHR meeting. I'll have to be Urban Planet's eyes and ears there.

[Sky06]

Would you entertain the thought that possibly what is really needed in HR are "transportation" projects, not "roads" projects?

Of course. I'm hugely in favor of LR and other mass transit projects. But as someone stated above, implementing mass transit doesn't preclude the need for additional roads and tunnels. Building LR won't do much to alleviate traffic problems at the MT tunnel. But BOTH are needed.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Sky06

[Sky06]

In 2001 the Virginia Department of Aviation proposed a new airport for Hampton Roads along the Suffolk/Isle of Wight line. The proposal has largely sat moribound.

With Virginia Beach's greenfields north of the Green Line nearly exhausted, the only rational growth strategy is to do TOD in the Norfolk Southern Corridor.

That's a shame because this is the right location. NOT the Peninsula as has been talked about.

[Telmnstr]

Virginia Beach didn't care about having a downtown until Norfolk's dowtown resurgence.

Once Norfolk's light rail system is under construction, I predict Virginia Beach will take another hard look.

I don't know if Virginia Beach's downtown was really driven by Norfolk. The so-called downtowns like downtown Virginia Beach are popping up everywhere in the country. Look at Newport News city center or whatever it's called. The same type things can be found all across the country.

Armada Hoffler moved to Virginia Beach from Chesapeake. Isn't that when the big tower went up? Perhaps AH saw the same type of activity on a national scale. I believe Armada Hoffler screwed over the city of Chesapeake on their jail, or some other dispute broke out between the city and the company, and that is when the company moved. Someone with better knowledge of Chesapeake history would have to confirm.

I'm still trying to decide which is cooler... Norfolk or Virginia Beach.

This summer I went to a block party in a friends neighborhood in Virginia Beach. And holy crap was it cool. Awesome neighbors. Well, his direct neighbors. Someone else in the neighborhood called the cops on the party, and had mad clout. But that was before it even started.

When trying to determine which city is best... you can say that downtown Norfolk is cool, and the buildings are nice. But there is really only a very very limited number of cool companies in the buildings. It's most lawyers and city stuff. So perhaps it looks cool from a distance? (Yes, there *ARE* a few cool companies, and it's nice working downtown).

With regards to light rail... do you think the types of people that live in Ghent and Freemason are going to ride the thing? What are the odds people actually work along the route?

[Case]

I'm still trying to decide which is cooler... Norfolk or Virginia Beach.

What are you... 12 years old...just kidding.. Telmnstr's statements illustrate a fact that truly alludes may in city government, A cities youthful or "Cool" image truly does affect it future economic viability. Upwardly mobile, creative and educated youth often make the decision of where to settle based on the silliest of things such as night life, party scene, the look of the city. They want to feel they are part of a "movement." These are often the same individuals who have the ever important entrepreneurial drive. I truly hope that the light rail project will be Norfolk's lightening rod for imagination and progressive thought.

[Telmnstr]

Next question... does the light rail take out the antique shop on York Street? More curious, does it take out the empty building to the left of it (next to the parking garage)? That building has been for-rent forever, and is rough inside. A friend pointed out that it's no longer for rent, and I kinda caught it when segwaying by. They appear to be cleaning it up inside.

When I inquired about renting it, it took *forever* to get a contract in hand, and when I did... it's was a disaster on paper... utter stupid. 6 month terms, so something was up. The property mgmt company is pretty elusive on details. I know when I rented my former office, it was done in a day. But that is the difference between renting from professionals versus people who deal with apartments and such.

My guess would be that the idea would be to clean it up and prep it to milk as much money out of it as possible when it comes time to sell it to the taxpayers, if it's indeed going away. Maybe someone rented it, but no idea who. Parking is a mess there, and the building has some issues (Black mold, no working HVAC, asbestos flooring that is coming up, etc).

I think it's 223 York Street, but it could be 233 York Street.

I could be wrong, there could be a tenant, but I've seen this technique before.

[scm]

I agree about light rail through the Midtown Tunnel, and have previously stated such in a few forums. Not only for Portsmouth, but eventually extending to the proposed new airport on the Suffolk/Isle of Wight line.

My wife attended a presentation by Kenneth Chandler, the new P'mouth City Manager. He had previously worked in Arlington, VA, and was comparing the two cities. He was saying that P'mouth is where Arlington was fifty years ago, and decisions made today would have effects fifty years from now. His illustration was the Metro line that runs down Wilson Blvd and Fairfax Dr., and makes the whole development chain -- Court House, Clarendon Commons, and Ballston -- what it is today. The initial decisions on that Metro route and the alignment were made in 1946.

Same thing on Midtown LR tubes. If they don't go in when the Midtown is expanded, then they won't go in for years, if ever. Too hard to go back and re-do.

[scm]

Of course. I'm hugely in favor of LR and other mass transit projects. But as someone stated above, implementing mass transit doesn't preclude the need for additional roads and tunnels. Building LR won't do much to alleviate traffic problems at the MT tunnel. But BOTH are needed.

My only wish is that your views were reflected in the priorities of the HRTA. The absence of capital spending on any mass transit, except the multi modal tubes included in the expanded MMBT, concerns me. I have serious questions about the $1.1B for a SE Parkway. Where is the ROI on that to the current residents of HR who are expected to pay for it? What transportation improvements could we accomplish if we spent that $1.1B on LR capital projects?

There is too much in the entire HRTA package that won't improve quality of life. Look at where the current bottlenecks are in HR, then tell me what of the $8.9B that we all will pay goes to relieve those bottlenecks. Quick answer is not much.