Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[scm]

often make the decision of where to settle based on the silliest of things such as night life, party scene, the look of the city. They want to feel they are part of a "movement." These are often the same individuals who have the ever important entrepreneurial drive.

Caution:

If you have been here awhile, the you might know I am a big believer in Dr. Richard Florida's work on the Creative Class theory of growth. Two examples of how cities have integrated this into their economic development are here: Benchmarking the Creative Class in Arlington, Virginia and here: Creative TampaBay

The Tampa Bay region has come to realize just this, and has taken positive steps to create that feeling by the formation of the Creative TampaBay group. They have commissioned some interesting research, and I would wonder what the same type of analysis would produce in HR. You can't know how to get somewhere unless you know where you are starting from.

[urbanfan]

Next question... does the light rail take out the antique shop on York Street? More curious, does it take out the empty building to the left of it (next to the parking garage)? That building has been for-rent forever, and is rough inside. A friend pointed out that it's no longer for rent, and I kinda caught it when segwaying by. They appear to be cleaning it up inside.

When I inquired about renting it, it took *forever* to get a contract in hand, and when I did... it's was a disaster on paper... utter stupid. 6 month terms, so something was up. The property mgmt company is pretty elusive on details. I know when I rented my former office, it was done in a day. But that is the difference between renting from professionals versus people who deal with apartments and such.

My guess would be that the idea would be to clean it up and prep it to milk as much money out of it as possible when it comes time to sell it to the taxpayers, if it's indeed going away. Maybe someone rented it, but no idea who. Parking is a mess there, and the building has some issues (Black mold, no working HVAC, asbestos flooring that is coming up, etc).

I think it's 223 York Street, but it could be 233 York Street.

I could be wrong, there could be a tenant, but I've seen this technique before.

I am pretty sure that a more high priority area for a line extension would be from the crossing at harbor park into portsmouth. There already is a train crossing and it would run from there up to the ocean view area. In fact I would rather see a crossing here and some type of Grand Central at harbor park than add to the cost of the midtown tunnel.

Edit: Sorry meant to quote SCM's comment.

Edited September 28, 2007 by urbanfan

[scm]

I am pretty sure that a more high priority area for a line extension would be from the crossing at harbor park into portsmouth. There already is a train crossing and it would run from there up to the ocean view area. In fact I would rather see a crossing here and some type of Grand Central at harbor park than add to the cost of the midtown tunnel.

Edit: Sorry meant to quote SCM's comment.

Well, #1 -- Federal Railway Administration regulations prohibit LR cars from running on the same lines as rail cars, and I don't think you will get NS to abandon that line as it is the chief route to the coal loading yards at Lambert's Point.

#2 -- that route gets nowhere near the chief traffic generators in P'mouth -- the Navy Hospital and the Shipyard. Just try to drive down Effingham towards I-264 at 4 PM and you will see the problem. The right route goes from the Midtown, down Harper Ave (parallel to Scott's Creek), south along the west side of Shea Terrace and just east of the MLK Freeway, then to London, east to Effingham, then down Effingham to the Shipyard.

#3 -- your route has no opportunity for TOD in Portsmouth. My route has plenty -- will make Port Norfolk and Shea Terrance affordable housing alternatives with quick connections to Norfolk as well as to the Shipyard. Would spur redevelopment in Prentiss Park and Newtown. I don't see any chance for Portsmouth's city leadership to line up for your routing since it doesn't do anything for Portsmouth.

[brikkman]

Did not realize all the things to take in count when extending LR.

From what you guys are saying, we may not see an extention (Practical extention) for some years to come....The naysayers are going to be on a ten year HIGH...

[brikkman]

What are you... 12 years old...just kidding.. Telmnstr's statements illustrate a fact that truly alludes may in city government, A cities youthful or "Cool" image truly does affect it future economic viability. Upwardly mobile, creative and educated youth often make the decision of where to settle based on the silliest of things such as night life, party scene, the look of the city. They want to feel they are part of a "movement." These are often the same individuals who have the ever important entrepreneurial drive. I truly hope that the light rail project will be Norfolk's lightening rod for imagination and progressive thought.

I have to agree.

That's why I'm little confused about Norfolk State's comments about LR. As soon as this thing is built, they are going to tell their students that they are seconds away from DT Norfolk via LR and have pictures and posters with LR in their advertisements references...

[urbanfan]

Well, #1 -- Federal Railway Administration regulations prohibit LR cars from running on the same lines as rail cars, and I don't think you will get NS to abandon that line as it is the chief route to the coal loading yards at Lambert's Point.

#2 -- that route gets nowhere near the chief traffic generators in P'mouth -- the Navy Hospital and the Shipyard. Just try to drive down Effingham towards I-264 at 4 PM and you will see the problem. The right route goes from the Midtown, down Harper Ave (parallel to Scott's Creek), south along the west side of Shea Terrace and just east of the MLK Freeway, then to London, east to Effingham, then down Effingham to the Shipyard.

#3 -- your route has no opportunity for TOD in Portsmouth. My route has plenty -- will make Port Norfolk and Shea Terrance affordable housing alternatives with quick connections to Norfolk as well as to the Shipyard. Would spur redevelopment in Prentiss Park and Newtown. I don't see any chance for Portsmouth's city leadership to line up for your routing since it doesn't do anything for Portsmouth.

Of course it would be a new bridge crossing. I know that trains and transit cannot share the same track. First of all you don't know what route I am talking about. The route from there would run across to pourtsmouth and take an immediate right on berkeley and run across another water crossing then cross 264 all the way up to high street following court street. From there you can hit every generator you talked about and for less money. All I'm saying is there is more than one way to cross the river. It doesn't have to be in a tunnel that is very expensive.

[vaceltic]

Either route is probably going to be very expensive and time consuming. Norfolk's LRT project was easy in that all it essentially had to plan was buying the rail right of way and build on top of existing public street infrastructure...and that was a 15 year planning project. Any other new line, with the exception of the VB spur (essentially the same acquisition as Norfolk), would involve needing to buy dozens of parcels of land for LRT right of way, which can take decades in its own right, identifying stations that would actually draw commuters, conducting environmental impact statements, detail a scheduling management plan for the connection to the existing Norfolk LRT line, and on and on. Lets not forget that Portsmouth would have to fund a large part of this project and a new bridge crossing would easily cost $20 million. Will Portsmouth be in a position to pay for the project in 5 or 10 years? Would Norfolk pitch in to it? Does the HR Transit Authority involve itself? Aside from the hard planning of the project, there are so many factors to consider it boggles my mind!

[mikeas]

I am pretty sure that a more high priority area for a line extension would be from the crossing at harbor park into portsmouth. There already is a train crossing and it would run from there up to the ocean view area. In fact I would rather see a crossing here and some type of Grand Central at harbor park than add to the cost of the midtown tunnel.

Edit: Sorry meant to quote SCM's comment.

I also invisioned something similar to a grand central station at harbor park with a greyhound bus terminal incorporated into the design. I'm wondering how long before the city starts trying to develop that massive parking lot, I think they should lay down a block road structure and build a garage freeing up 6-8 blocks for development.

[virginia pe]

Of course it would be a new bridge crossing. I know that trains and transit cannot share the same track. First of all you don't know what route I am talking about. The route from there would run across to pourtsmouth and take an immediate right on berkeley and run across another water crossing then cross 264 all the way up to high street following court street. From there you can hit every generator you talked about and for less money. All I'm saying is there is more than one way to cross the river. It doesn't have to be in a tunnel that is very expensive.

If you are going to cross the river anywhere downstream of the Norfolk Naval Shipyard, it will have to be in a tunnel. The Navy will not allow bridges to be constructed that could block a navigational channel with one well-placed bomb. That's why we have so many tunnels in Hampton Roads.

[scm]

Of course it would be a new bridge crossing. I know that trains and transit cannot share the same track. First of all you don't know what route I am talking about. The route from there would run across to pourtsmouth and take an immediate right on berkeley and run across another water crossing then cross 264 all the way up to high street following court street. From there you can hit every generator you talked about and for less money. All I'm saying is there is more than one way to cross the river. It doesn't have to be in a tunnel that is very expensive.

What you want to do involves the following: New construction bridge across the Eastern branch, east of the Berkley bridge.. Tunnel under 264 (since there isn't a place to build west of 264 -- the Berkley landing would be in Metro Machine, and the Norfolk landing in the Sheraton). Then a bridge (which the Navy would probably never let be built) that would wipe out large portions of BAE's shipyard -- all to land on the south side of 264 with no way back to High Street, except under 264 at Effingham? I won't even get into the operational problems with that -- up/down, tight turns, etc.

And you are convinced two bridges and a tunnel under 464 are cheaper than adding two more tubes when you are already building two at the Midtown? I will bet the cost of those two tubes will only add $100M to the $400 for the Midtown. Pinners Point and the new West Norfolk bridge were $140M - you can build two bridges and a tunnel for less than that?

Remember that once tolled, the Midtown and Downtown are net revenue generators. That revenue excess could pay for the LR tubes.

[Sky06]

Did not realize all the things to take in count when extending LR.

From what you guys are saying, we may not see an extention (Practical extention) for some years to come....The naysayers are going to be on a ten year HIGH...

The nay-sayers can kiss my @#$! They're part of the problem. It's the people with vision who will make things better.

Edited September 28, 2007 by Sky06

[rusthebuss]

The nay-sayers can kiss my @#$! They're part of the problem. It's the people with vision who will make things better.

I second that! The nay-sayers are the ones complaining about traffic but don't want to do anything about it. There people out there that would complain if life was perfect just to complain. They are technically a minority of the population but are the vocal majority.

[vdogg]

^^^Better.

Down the tracks

Even if there are no overruns, Norfolk could still be on the line for more money if costly changes are made to the plan.

Norfolk State University

[Henry_Ryto]

^^^Better.

Down the tracks

^^^Exactly. I swear, NSU is annoying the @#$% out of me right now. Stop crying and move on. Moving a station across the street so that people have to dodge traffic is about the dumbest idea i've ever heard. Making a station less convenient for the people using it is going to make it less successful than it could be.

Okay, NSU, what about non-students taking the train to NSU to see sporting events? You want to make it impossible for them?

As for the train itself, the TDCHR voted Wednesday to piggyback on one of Charlotte's options, so it's their style.

[Henry_Ryto]

I've read the 17 page Final Funding Grant Agreement (FFGA), and here are a few interesting nuggets:

1. HRT is liable for cost overruns [section 4(a)]. That's been taken up by the Norfolk City Council [Preamble].

2. The Tide is required to be in revenue operation by January 1, 2010 [section 5(a)].

3. If HRT defaults, it can be required to repay all Federal funds [section 19(a)].

4. Revenues from HRT's current transit operations can't be used to cover the Local Share [section 10©].

[levarforever]

Most of the negative comments are just a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacking if you ask me. My guess is the opponents of light rail were kind of quiet for a while because they didn't think it would get this far. But now that they see it becoming a reality, it's like they're in panic mode or something.

[Case]

Most of the negative comments are just a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacking if you ask me. My guess is the opponents of light rail were kind of quiet for a while because they didn't think it would get this far. But now that they see it becoming a reality, it's like they're in panic mode or something.

Fortunately, they waited to long to truly stop it....(I hope)....One city getting hundreds of millions in federal funds.. how often does that happen? and people are complaining about the amount Norfolk is responsible for. I am a major critic of how Norfolk spends funds, but this is a once a generation opportunity, a no brainer. Once complete it will instantly raise the stature of the city and region in the eyes of onlookers whether they ride it or not. I wonder if half the people making negative comments on hamptonroads.com have ever even been on city train before. I swear they must have this 80's graffiti covered image of what metro trains are like.

And negative comments made by non - Norfolk residents are predictable...I think they (vabeach) base half their self esteem on believing that they are better that Norfolk, therefore they must attack its every attempt to better itself. No offense intended to VA BEACH residents on this board.

[Telmnstr]

What are you... 12 years old...just kidding.. Telmnstr's statements illustrate a fact that truly alludes may in city government, A cities youthful or "Cool" image truly does affect it future economic viability. Upwardly mobile, creative and educated youth often make the decision of where to settle based on the silliest of things such as night life, party scene, the look of the city. They want to feel they are part of a "movement." These are often the same individuals who have the ever important entrepreneurial drive. I truly hope that the light rail project will be Norfolk's lightening rod for imagination and progressive thought.

I've had a few opinions. First, if you look back in the 80s (Where is MetalMan!?) ... groups like the PMRC were hollaring that heavy metal music was ruining kids... devil worship, and all that mess (Iron Maiden, No of the beast \nn/)... then fast forward to 2000's, and Ozzy's Crazy Train could be heard on $50K car commercials. Yesterdays evil youth is tomorrow's consumer. So when cities like Virginia Beach pee on the young, in 10 or 20 years, when the young should be their consumer, will they avoid that which they may feel wronged them? Who knows. But it would seem to me that building good customer relationship would be beneficial in the long run.

I'm not really a party scene kinda guy, more of a prankster and into technology and stuff... but you summed it up pretty well. Often when I try to take on a subject like... say housing bubble. I try to look at it from the average person's perspective.

As far as cool... cool is a billion dollar industry.

[Telmnstr]

I second that! The nay-sayers are the ones complaining about traffic but don't want to do anything about it. There people out there that would complain if life was perfect just to complain. They are technically a minority of the population but are the vocal majority.

Errr. Quick question. Am I a nay sayer?

A: I think light rail is dumb

B: I think elevated maglev (even monorail) is the solution

C: I walk or segway to work almost all of the time now, except if it's raining or I have to go to data center or something.

Wheels are like, old and stuff. We need electromagnets.

If I'm doing 100mph down 264, I want the elevated train running along side the road to still pass me.

If you saw the comments about the inner workings of HRT that were posted on the old Pilot talknet, you'd probably not want them to have any of our tax dollars. Lots of information posted by a few guys regarding the TRT / Penntran to HRT merge.

[vdogg]

I've had a few opinions. First, if you look back in the 80s (Where is MetalMan!?) ... groups like the PMRC were hollaring that heavy metal music was ruining kids... devil worship, and all that mess (Iron Maiden, No of the beast \nn/)... then fast forward to 2000's, and Ozzy's Crazy Train could be heard on $50K car commercials. Yesterdays evil youth is tomorrow's consumer. So when cities like Virginia Beach pee on the young, in 10 or 20 years, when the young should be their consumer, will they avoid that which they may feel wronged them? Who knows. But it would seem to me that building good customer relationship would be beneficial in the long run.

I'm not really a party scene kinda guy, more of a prankster and into technology and stuff... but you summed it up pretty well. Often when I try to take on a subject like... say housing bubble. I try to look at it from the average person's perspective.

As far as cool... cool is a billion dollar industry.

**cough** "Norfolk Light Rail and Transit" **cough**

[okinawatyphoon]

I agree with Tel, I think we should have done monorail all along. Where I lived in Japan, they started out with only buses for transit and then went to a starter line monorail (13 km long) in 2003. It carries about 60,000 passengers per day and keeps growing. I think they chose monorail because it was too crowded for anything else, but still, it just looks so cool and it avoids traffic and pedestrian accidents. But *sigh*, reality must set in because of costs.

[Case]

I agree with Tel, I think we should have done monorail all along. Where I lived in Japan, they started out with only buses for transit and then went to a starter line monorail (13 km long) in 2003. It carries about 60,000 passengers per day and keeps growing. I think they chose monorail because it was too crowded for anything else, but still, it just looks so cool and it avoids traffic and pedestrian accidents. But *sigh*, reality must set in because of costs.

In a perfect world, this wouldn't be a light rail project at all, but rather heavy rail or monorail on elevated platforms and underground stations extending across a new downtown tunnel to Portsmouth. Sad but, everything that is truly sensible is now "cost prohibited." I support this project in part because its do-able. An imperfect plan should be scrapped when an alternative that can be accomplished in the foreseeable future. I would rather do something before 2030. That is short sighted, but we have to pick our battles.

But i do believe we have no business building anymore tunnels without the possibility of rail access. I would rather they wait 5 years than build a new midtown tunnel without it.

[vdogg]

Brand new light rail video

Just click on the stations to animate.

Light rail gets green light

Extensions to the Norfolk Naval Base, Old Dominion University and Norfolk International Airport will be considered. Opinions of light rail may be softening in Virginia Beach since the 1999 referendum, although the Beach council has not formally discussed the possibility of an extension there.

Since the vote, MacArthur Center became established and residential development boomed in downtown Norfolk, and Town Center was built in Virginia Beach.

Beach Mayor Meyera Oberndorf said she’s heard from businesspeople, particularly around Town Center, who want light rail, as well as from residents.

“Our demographics are changing; we’re having more people come from other parts of the U.S. who are used to riding transit,” said Oberndorf, adding that she does not yet have a position on light rail.

^^^^This is a very good sign.

[Marco757]

Brand new light rail video

Just click on the stations to animate.

Light rail gets green light

^^^^This is a very good sign.

Yeah it's a good sign...it would be great if the line went all the way to town center. I'd hate to be a hater, but if va beach had better leadership they'd already be planning or building the line there with Norfolk. Meyera's comment is so typical..great leadership is not always providing what the people want, but giving them what they need. The voters and council are decades behind other metro areas in terms of thinking and that's putting it kindly.

[vdogg]

The voters and council are decades behind other metro areas in terms of thinking and that's putting it kindly.

Right, but they're light years ahead of where they were, which is the point I was trying to get across. Lets give Va. Beach a chance guys.