Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[scm]

The base is the key to its success along with Vabeach section!

Rus, I wish I could be so sanguine about the potential for Naval Base ridership, but unless someone can show some empirical evidence, I have to think it will be a complete disaster, with such low ridership it will set the entire system back years.

Today, for a variety of reasons, the Naval Station has the higher percentage of SOVs than the average in HR. The layout of the NS has something to do with it -- if you are on a ship, and have a dental appt off the ship, you have to have a car to get there, or have hours to wait. If you have to go to a variety of offices, they are all located away from the waterfront. Gym the same way. Bottom line is you have to have a car during the day, almost every day, just due to the physical layout. Second, there is something in the population that takes extraordinary pride in having a car. I saw it in Germany. Stuttgart has one of the best urban transit systems in Europe, with a heavy and light rail station a short distance from our main base there (compact, walkable base). Bus connections are frequent, yet I almost never saw an American service member waiting at the closest bus stop. Which brings me to the next observation -- it will be impossible to not utilize circulator buses that connect to an off base final LR stop. The Navy will NEVER permit a LR station on base, and besides, it will never be close to all of the destinations, ergo a collector bus system will be required.

Second problem is rooted in the fact that LR will only coax drivers out of their cars if it delivers better times than driving -- proven in system after system. If the Medical Center line is extended to ODU and the NS, it will have to go either up Hampton Blvd, or Colley, and then jumping over to Hampton at 27th and 26th. Either way, they will basically be streetcars, as there is no way to get dedicated ROW. Hampton is two lane both sides until around 38th, and horribly slow at rush hours. If I guess right, there will be around seven stops between the Medical Center and the NS -- minimum three minutes between stops, in good traffic, so twenty minutes, on top of what it took to get from VB to the Medical Center. Typical ride will be drive to a park and ride, then forty minutes to an hour to the end of the line, where you change to a circulator bus to get to your destination -- and be without a car all day.

All of these issues won't change because of the extension of LR up Hampton. There are approximately 100,000 people assigned to NS Norfolk, although many aren't there every day. There is enough demand, from that population, to support a total of TWELVE express buses daily from the Silverleaf and Chesapeake P&Rs -- single bus service, with no change required. If the population doesn't better support the current express bus service, then why do you think they will ride an even more time consuming LR extension?

[Henry_Ryto]

scm,

Virginia Beach has made it clear that it won't enter without the Navy base and ODU online. You can argue their ridership, but they're a political imperative.

Speaking of which, the two leading reasons given for not using the current express bus service are:

1. You can't get home during the day in case of an emergency.

2. You can be stranded missing the last bus.

Neither of those would exist with a LRT/feeder bus system in place.

Finally, I'm one of those who argues to go EVMS-ODU via Colley instead of Hampton. Much less traffic.

[Glassoul]

Finally, I'm one of those who argues to go EVMS-ODU via Colley instead of Hampton. Much less traffic.

I'd agree that Colley makes more sense for ODU-EVMS, and I'm fairly certain the businesses there wouldn't mind, but some of the residents might object. The only way that the base stations will succeed is if the LR has its own RoW for most of the journey from VA-BCH and can shave off a a significant amount of time. I think WiFi service would be beneficial in getting riders as well, could likely do it for free.

[scm]

Speaking of which, the two leading reasons given for not using the current express bus service are:

1. You can't get home during the day in case of an emergency.

2. You can be stranded missing the last bus.

My father always said people will always give you two reasons for doing something: The real reason, and one that sounds good. Is this anything more than anecdotal, that people have just mentioned to you? The reason I ask is that the HRPDC did a Naval Station Traffic Management Study a year ago and looked at ways to increase transit usage -- never mentioned the things you said. It is insightful to look at where NS trips originate (from the same study) -- very few originate in the 264 corridor or in C'peake -- most are in Ocean View, Wards Corner, or Ghent/Larchmont. It may be that the express service isn't drawing from that big a target population -- only draws about 350 riders/day. Have to wonder how many would ride LR from VB to the base -- both for my reasons, and for the fact there just aren't that many potential riders.

Which brings up the next point. A NS extension may be a "political imperative" to get VB on board, but I doubt that will withstand any scrutiny by the bill payers -- state and federal. You see what the FTA did to the Dulles extension? Standby for the same. I don't see anthing that LR will do, that can't be done by bus service connecting at the Medical Center. Will travel in the traffic, at the same speed. Won't require re-construction of a RR underpass, either at Colley or Hampton. Will be able to enter the base, without a change, and get to most of the employment centers. Won't require capital. Won't be as sexy. The sexy argument won't carry the day.

[umterp03]

I work on the base so I've seen pretty much firsthand on what could happen if LR were to extend it's root to there. First of all, I think the route from Downtown to NS would be beneficial, but I think it would benefit more of the ODU and EVMS students who would use it as a way of getting downtown for entertainment purposes without having to drive, and ODU students can use it to get to their classes from Ghent since it seems like that's where a good amount of ODU students live. I still find it hard to believe NSU doesn't want this, I graduated from the University of Maryland and they are getting two metro stops on campus when Metro introduces the purple line, the benefits far outweigh the negatives. It's not like NSU is in a great area anyway, anyone can walk their and commit crime on campus. With that being said, there are many sailors that live on base and if the lightrail were run in the right hours, I would see a large amount using the LR as a way of getting downtown to shop, eat, go out to bars, the Navy has really been cracking down on DUIs, and I think the LR would be a good deterrent against that.

I think as a commuter line it would be fairly limited to do that as was stated previously with the rush hour traffic on hampton and the amount of time it would take to get to work, but with rising gas prices you never know, as long as gas prices keep rising more and more people will be looking to the idea of mass transportation. The true way I see this working is if the LR connected beyond Norfolk, like Newport News and Portsmouth, which is a long shot, but it would seriously cut the travel time required because of the tunnel traffic congestion.

[spiker3]

NSU Will Greenlight Light Rail.....At a Cost

NSU wants the city to buy the president’s home and transfer the deed back to the university so the house can be used as a student welcome center. The college would then build or purchase another home for its president.

Norfolk Mayor Paul Fraim said he wouldn’t support the request under any circumstances.

“I don’t think we could use public dollars for that purpose,” he said.

NSU officials also would like the city to build a parking deck over a university-owned parking lot adjacent to the Ballentine Boulevard station instead of sharing 97 of the school’s spaces there, as HRT’s plans call for.

The school can’t afford to share because the college already has a shortage of 1,600 spaces, NSU officials said. Shared parking also poses security risks, they said.

Other wish list items include:

- Relocating HRT’s access to the rail maintenance yard. The plan calls for reopening Norchester Avenue at the east end of campus, which NSU said could jeopardize security because of the added traffic.

- Installing noise and sight barriers between the rail and the campus.

- Indemnifying the university for any damage caused by the rail construction.

This has gotten out of hand. This letter is three weeks old, but shame on NSU. This is not Christmas, you don't get to put together a list of items to be completed for approval. It's called blackmail and extortion. Regina Williams is NOT taking as hard a line as she needs to with this hogwash. Fraim has it right, it's not going to happen. Williams needs to wake up and realize that this problem is not going away until the city forces NSU into waking up to reality. Light rail is going to happen. We are not purchasing the presidents home and then giving it to NSU. This is under construction, not in the planning stages. Shame on NSU for this immature nonsense. ODU is laughing their butts off right now at how proposterous NSU's directors look right. Shameful.

[vdogg]

NSU Will Greenlight Light Rail.....At a Cost

This has gotten out of hand. This letter is three weeks old, but shame on NSU. This is not Christmas, you don't get to put together a list of items to be completed for approval. It's called blackmail and extortion. Regina Williams is NOT taking as hard a line as she needs to with this hogwash. Fraim has it right, it's not going to happen. Williams needs to wake up and realize that this problem is not going away until the city forces NSU into waking up to reality. Light rail is going to happen. We are not purchasing the presidents home and then giving it to NSU. This is under construction, not in the planning stages. Shame on NSU for this immature nonsense. ODU is laughing their butts off right now at how proposterous NSU's directors look right. Shameful.

Wow, I guess even a stopped watch is right twice a day. I thought all those people in the pilot comments section claiming this was just a shakedown were being their normal, reactionary, selves. Who knew?

[vdogg]

Man this article makes me mad. Why the city is so quick to use eminent domain to take some little old lady's house, but can't stomach its use when it comes to a major institution that is actually impeding progress, is beyond me. I think they have a clear cut case for its use in this situation and they need to use it before light rails cost spiral out of control. I know that some here have been sensitive to the criticisms leveled against NSU in posts here over recent weeks, but I must say that behavior like this is doing their image no good. If I were a student or alumni I would be furious at the way they have chosen to represent my school and their ineffective leadership. I'd definitely be writing a few angry letters (not that it would work, they seem to be oblivious to actual public need).

[RJWGMU]

The people running NSU are either insanely stupid or incredibly smart...

Stupid for waiting so long to bring stuff up.

Smart, because I wonder if this was the plan all along!

[monsoon]

.....

Second problem is rooted in the fact that LR will only coax drivers out of their cars if it delivers better times than driving -- proven in system after system. .....

Where is this proven for Light Rail? Most people that ride light rail do so because they don't want or can't drive and to avoid parking. It's very rare for these systems to give a shorter total transit time over driving. There is also an intrinsic social experience that comes from riding the train that people like and will use if available, even if it means more inconvenience. The new system in Charlotte is carrying 14,000/day, (projected first year was 9100) yet the entire length of that line can be driven faster than it takes to ride the train down that route.

[scm]

Most people that ride light rail do so because they don't want or can't drive and to avoid parking. It's very rare for these systems to give a shorter total transit time over driving.

Where is any of THAT proven? You can search every new start rail project in the world, and you will find congestion avoidance listed as a chief benefit EVERY time -- Dallas, Austin, Portland, even your own Charlotte Observer: ""Getting commuters out of their cars is a key goal for CATS. Not only are park-and-ride customers most likely new transit users, they usually take longer train trips

[monsoon]

Where is any of THAT proven? ...

Did you read my post? I gave you an example.

You said that it has been proven time after time that people use these systems because ONLY if it delivers better times than driving, and that is obviously not the case for Light Rail as it is built in American cities. You have yet to provide any statistical proof of that, even the examples you cite don't say faster driving times. Light rail offers people a less stressful way to travel, avoidance of parking issues including payment, and other intrinsic benefits as I specified above. RARELY does it offer faster travel time over using a car unless we are talking about a very dense city which in that case HRT is what should be built. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[vaceltic]

I doubt that rail really reduces pollution as one of those articles says. Because rail spurs new development, people who get off the roads to use it will just be replaced by new drivers, driving further distances, to use the highways because they are now less congested. I can't remember the author of the book about this, but it is a phenomenon called "triple convergence". New roadways and transit do not alleviate traffic, they just merely provide alternative routes and alternative modes, which eventually will carry maximum traffic volumes and spur new rails and roads to be built.

[Sky06]

Light rail offers people a less stressful way to travel, avoidance of parking issues including payment, and other intrinsic benefits as I specified above.

Bingo.

[Henry_Ryto]

My fellow UCAC member from Virginia Beach, Michael Ragsdale, reports seeing a notice on a bus today. It's an apology from the City of Norfolk over the Cedar Grove debacle.

The problem: Norfolk wants to make Cedar Grove the permanent bus TC for the downtown area. That would put buses and rail (both LRT and - maybe - HSR) on opposite sides of downtown. Both Vdogg and I have posted on how brain-dead that would be.

Therefore, if you live in Norfolk, contact your City Council representative. There's still time to stop such an incredibly short-sighted decision that would probably have reprecussions for at least 50 years out.

[vdogg]

My fellow UCAC member from Virginia Beach, Michael Ragsdale, reports seeing a notice on a bus today. It's an apology from the City of Norfolk over the Cedar Grove debacle.

The problem: Norfolk wants to make Cedar Grove the permanent bus TC for the downtown area. That would put buses and rail (both LRT and - maybe - HSR) on opposite sides of downtown. Both Vdogg and I have posted on how brain-dead that would be.

Therefore, if you live in Norfolk, contact your City Council representative. There's still time to stop such an incredibly short-sighted decision that would probably have reprecussions for at least 50 years out.

My God, It's almost like they want it to fail. Even if they do still decide to make this the permanent TC, I feel that after the first year of operation when ridership is well below expectations, they will reconsider the issue. They may be brain-dead but they're not suicidal (at least I don't think ), and such a debacle would surely end some careers. Still, i'd rather not have to go through a year of bad press in order for them to come to their senses.

[vdogg]

NSU too late on rail complaints

There's no denying that Norfolk should've been better prepared for this moment. As light rail became a reality, the city just didn't do all the detail work - including nailing down the fine points of agreements, rezoning parcels, minimizing disruption - that would've helped the project come together more smoothly.

[Sky06]

NSU too late on rail complaints

Two points about this editorial. The paper seems to want to blame everyone, but the blame to me is clearly in one corner.

1. The editorial doesn't clearly define in what areas the city did not do their homework. I find it hard to believe that they didn't cross their t's and dot their i's in light of all the federal hurdles they needed to overcome.

2. NSU is in clear violation of the signed MOA with the city. NSU's position would not hold up in court.

[rusthebuss]

the rise center land was given to NSU by city of Norfolk. Shows you what a bunch of ingrates they are. They act like they are the biggest asset to this city.

Edited April 18, 2008 by rusthebuss

[spiker3]

Two points about this editorial. The paper seems to want to blame everyone, but the blame to me is clearly in one corner.

1. The editorial doesn't clearly define in what areas the city did not do their homework. I find it hard to believe that they didn't cross their t's and dot their i's in light of all the federal hurdles they needed to overcome.

2. NSU is in clear violation of the signed MOA with the city. NSU's position would not hold up in court.

Actually Norfolk's city council and Regina Williams were quoted saying they never followed up with NSU till a few months ago because of the focus on federal approval, that's where that statement comes into play. It's one of the reason Williams is taking considerable more heat; i wouldn't be shocked to see her before the end of the year, depending on how the rest of the year goes for her.

[okinawatyphoon]

Announcement coming today on light rail funding

Federal Transit Administrator James S. Simpson will make an announcement regarding funding for The Tide light rail project today at 1 p.m. at Hampton Roads Transit Headquarters.

Congresswoman Thelma Drake (R-Va), Congressman Bobby Scott (D-Va) and Hampton Roads Transit president Michael S. Townes will join Simpson in surveying construction progress at Harbor Park.

[Sky06]

Announcement coming today on light rail funding

I have to assume this is good news if all these heavies are on hand. Can't wait until we have light rail running all the way from Williamsburg to Newtown Road.

[urbanfan]

I have to assume this is good news if all these heavies are on hand. Can't wait until we have light rail running all the way from Williamsburg to Newtown Road.

It's a pretty common thing to have a survey of progress on the system before releasing money to the client. Standard procedure.

[urbanvb]

Surprised no one followed up but:

Federal agency awards money for Norfolk light rail line

Federal Transit Administrator James S. Simpson today awarded $18.9 million toward its $128 million pledge for Norfolk

Edited April 21, 2008 by urbanvb

[Sky06]

"I haven't seen a project anywhere around the county like this that is more deserving," Simpson said.

Quite an endoresement.