Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[cpeakesqr]

As of present, over 82% of Pilot poll respondents in favor. All here must respond before leaving today. Else, no soup for you.

I've voted twice...

[Sky06]

Deserves to go in both Norfolk and VB sites. Unanimous, baby!

house-committee-oks-light-rail-extension-near-oceanfront

Edited June 25, 2008 by Sky06

[Henry_Ryto]

The blog Wards Corner Now overhyped the meeting. No announcement on extensions this morning.

1. HRT, beginning at this afternoon's Commission meeting, will start a "visioning process" on where LRT should go.

2. Randy Wright said, "We want to go to Old Dominion University...We want to go to the Naval base."

3. Eventually he'd like to see a line from Hampton Boulevard to Ocean View via Wards Corner.

I should have slept in.

[scottc80]

Gosh, Henry. Sorry that you didn't get to sleep in I was hoping for some type of announcement from the meeting, as I am sure many of us were hoping for. Thank you for reporting back so quickly. I may have to send Wright another email on the LR. I really had hoped for some type of direction on this by now. To me, the most logical pathway for the LR would be -> Up Colley Ave. making Colley a one way street, with the LR sharing the road. Follow Colley up to 27th, then turn West to Hampton Blvd. From there, pass through ODU and straight up Hampton Blvd. to the Base (using the northbound side of the road for tracks to not impede afternoon traffic). Also, maybe a branch off at Terminal towards Ward's Corner and OV. The concern has always been Hampton Blvd through Ghent from my understanding because it is so narrow, and this would keep the traffic moving on Hampton Blvd. towards the tunnel, and also bring the train right by the shops on Colley. It would also bring the train directly through the ODU campus. Seems to me to be the most logical path for the train, with 2 major stops (ODU and the base) along the way.

Again, thanks Henry, and I guess we will just wait and hope for something soon. If the LR goes to the Ocean Front, it only makes sense to have it go to the base on the other end.

[geszes]

Yes, the meeting was entirely overhyped and underwhelming (I was the young fellow on the right who asked two questions -- both of which went unanswered until I got to talk to the project manager).

Now, before I say anything else, I attend ODU, and work for ODU, so obviously I'd like to see the Tide stop here eventually. The problem is, until the Third Crossing gets built, Hampton Boulevard will need the 2x3 lane capacity, and there isn't enough space in the median to run the Light Rail there.

However, two blocks to the east, Colley Avenue/Jamestown Crescent offers a good alternate route. This way, the line can be extended through the EVMS campus to reach Colley, then share the right-of-way and lanes with traffic through the entire lenght of Colley and Jamestown Crescent. Then comes the problematic part: sharing road surface with Hampton Boulevard, so perhaps the best solution here is to move the existing road as far west as possible and dismantle the median (minimal loss, it's rarely present for those couple blocks). The Light Rail could be constructed east of the road, which will enable the construction of a separate bridge to the east of the current Hampton Boulevard bridge.

Between there bridge and Terminal Boulevard, the two options are to either run it in the median (which would work, save the need for turn lanes to Terminal Blvd), or to run it east of Hampton Boulevard with the median removed/decreased. North of Terminal Blvd, it's possible to run it in the median and decrease the number of roadway lanes if needed (which may impact some turn lanes). For practical purposes, given the timeline of this extension, the Hampton Boulevard Overpass might already be in place; it'd be nice if that had provisions for the light rail.

The path's advantage would be leaving Hampton Boulevard unobstructed for roadway traffic, as well as being a near-even bisection of that peninsula of Norfolk, thus providing a more even coverage. Colley's shops in Ghent and the 21st Street Business District would greatly benefit from this route, and it would also enable the revitalization of Park Place and Colley Bay. The Central Hampton Boulevard Management Plan has provisions for extending open space from ODU to Colley, to the connection to ODU would remain; possibly ODU's shuttle system could be extended to stop at the light rail station somewhere around 45th and Colley.

The project can also be completed with minimal disruption to existing buildings, and minimal loss of roadway capacity.

----

An extension to the Airport is similary important. The cheap way to get there would be to begin at Kempsville & Newtown, follow Kempsville Road to Virginia Beach Boulevard, then hug I-64 from the west once you pass under it. Then before you get to Military Highway, dip under it, then pass over the onramps and Robin Hood Road, then build it to the right of Military Highway and the middle of Azalea Gardens until you can get it across the water north of Norview.

Of course, the above route wouldn't do anyone else but the Airport any good, so a more likely plan is to start at Harbor Park, follow Tidewater Ave, then Lafayette to Cheasapeke Blvd, then Norview to the Airport. This would neatly bisect the city Southwest to Northeast and give some cohesion to an important corridor that is seldom recognized as one. A spur could be built along Cheasapeke Blvd north, serving the Tidewater Drive industrial park and commercial district, as well as Ocean View. Southwards, the line could be extended from Harbor Park into Berkley/South Norfolk and Chesapeake.

[Henry_Ryto]

Okay, I was the guy in the rear right wearing the green shirt.

The good news is the Randy Wright quote. Compare it to Jim Wood in today's paper and realize we have the makings of a Dome site - Naval base line.

[rusthebuss]

Okay, I was the guy in the rear right wearing the green shirt.

The good news is the Randy Wright quote. Compare it to Jim Wood in today's paper and realize we have the makings of a Dome site - Naval base line.

Henry, what do you mean the makings of the dome site? as in development? We need to have another get together if everyone is up for it

[Henry_Ryto]

Henry, what do you mean the makings of the dome site? as in development? We need to have another get together if everyone is up for it

The makings of a Dome site - Naval base line.

1. Jim Wood reiterated Virginia Beach's position: VB wants EVMS to the Naval base via ODU as a prerequisite to getting in.

2. Randy Wright says he wants such a line.

Then let's do it!

[scm]

To me, the most logical pathway for the LR would be -> Up Colley Ave. making Colley a one way street, with the LR sharing the road. Follow Colley up to 27th, then turn West to Hampton Blvd.

The first problem is, that the section between PA and 21st would have to have the vehicles completely removed -- LR would consume the entire width of the road bed. Big question if the Ghent merchants along there will go for that. Second problem is, that in the other sections, N & S of there, if you make it one way, how will you move the traffic in the other direction? There is only one underpass under the Lamberts Point rail. What do you do about the other direction traffic? Send it over to the Colonial grade crossing?

All of what you want to do can be acomplished by frequent bus collectors running up Hampton from LR termination at EVMS. Lammius correctly identified why LR isn't a reasonable mode for long distances. If you want to move VB residents to NS Norfolk, Express Buses from Silverleaf, up the HOV lanes is the attractive mode. Most LR lines in the US have ATLs (Average Trip Lengths) of FOUR miles. It is SEVEN miles from D'Town to the NS -- almost double the national LR ATL. Problem is, that most NS commuters within four miles, don't live S of the base -- they live E of the base.

HR requires a multi-modal transit solution, with a different solution to each problem. We face a real danger when well meaning, but inexperienced (and monstrously uncurious) politicians, draw lines in the sand, and say this destination, or that destination, has to be included, or I won't support it. No research, no experience, just uninformed intuition. Not something to try at home, kiddies -- leave it to professionals.

[Padman]

I really like that idea of running the line from EVMS to the base next. ODU is a really big destination and probably will add a lot to the off-peak ridership. We can still run some express buses on the HOV lanes from VB to the Naval base--that will be a faster option for many workers. LRT will take some trips off of I264, and add another way to get to ODU and to the base.

The older idea of running a line parallel to Military Highway to the airport, then Wards Corner and then to the base would be a good future phase. But I don't think that many LRT riders will drag and carry heavy luggage around, but that doesn't mean that some flyers won't use LRT to get to the airport. Anyway, since we already have HOV lanes on I64 in that corridor, perhaps the extension through an expanded Midtown tunnel to some park and ride lots in Portsmouth and Chesapeake would add more riders to LRT. It's too bad that we can't do it all at once..it's needed now.

[rusthebuss]

I'm wondering how they would get down Hampton Blvd. I think that most of the line would have to be elevated. Man does that add to the cost of the line.

[urbanfan]

I'm wondering how they would get down Hampton Blvd. I think that most of the line would have to be elevated. Man does that add to the cost of the line.

The line will go down Hampton Blvd. It's already set up for that. Hampton Blvd. is the only place where there is ability to widen the road. You can't do that down Colley. Buildings are right up on the road and alot of them are historic. Not so on Hampton Blvd.

[spiker3]

The line will go down Hampton Blvd. It's already set up for that. Hampton Blvd. is the only place where there is ability to widen the road. You can't do that down Colley. Buildings are right up on the road and alot of them are historic. Not so on Hampton Blvd.

That's incorrect sir, on Hampton Blvd from the Midtown Tunnel to 35th St buildings line both sides of the road, and from Olney to 21st the buildings on both side are historical houses and apartment buildings. While there are four lanes instead of Colley's two, eliminating two lanes for LR would be a disaster for Midtown Tunnel traffic, which will prevent it from happening, as well as tearing down historical houses and residences. No way does Hampton Blvd get LR from EVMS to 21st St. So the question remains, how does it get to ODU?

[geszes]

The first problem is, that the section between PA and 21st would have to have the vehicles completely removed -- LR would consume the entire width of the road bed. Big question if the Ghent merchants along there will go for that. Second problem is, that in the other sections, N & S of there, if you make it one way, how will you move the traffic in the other direction? There is only one underpass under the Lamberts Point rail. What do you do about the other direction traffic? Send it over to the Colonial grade crossing?

In Germany, UK, France, Poland, Hungary, etc, it's common for trams in space-constrained environments to share the right-of-way with vehicles. While the concept is nearly foreign to North America, it has been done elsewhere; the light rail's signals are then synchronized with roadway signals and it effectively behaves as any other road-based vehicle for that stretch of road. That could be a viable solution for Colley Ave / Larchmont Crescent all the way up, given those streets' low traffic compared to neighboring Hampton Boulevard. It would discourage through traffic that does not frequent the businesses anyway, and encourage walkability along that corridor, which would be beneficial for Ghent and 21st Street and could serve as a catalyst in revitalizing Northern Colley / Park Place.

However, I agree that a line to the Airport would be more important than an extension to ODU and onwards to the Naval Base -- ODU's four or five bus stops ("standard bus stops", not "HRT-stops-on-every-corner-bus-stops") away from the EVMS Station, while the Naval Base can also be reached through Bus 2 in the existing HRT system, and most of its usage is not Naval Base-related (personal experience).

[urbanfan]

That's incorrect sir, on Hampton Blvd from the Midtown Tunnel to 35th St buildings line both sides of the road, and from Olney to 21st the buildings on both side are historical houses and apartment buildings. While there are four lanes instead of Colley's two, eliminating two lanes for LR would be a disaster for Midtown Tunnel traffic, which will prevent it from happening, as well as tearing down historical houses and residences. No way does Hampton Blvd get LR from EVMS to 21st St. So the question remains, how does it get to ODU?

The line has already been set up for a hampton blvd. continuation. There are more historic buildings on colley than there are on Hampton blvd. Less uproar for a train going up hampton than colley. Are you kidding me, run a tram through the middle of ghent's pride and joy, not going to happen.

[Sky06]

There's a road between West Ghent and the Lamberts Point train tacks that could be convereted to a LR line. I don't know how critical it is (for business access or emergency vehicle access), but that's an option. I think it goes all the way to 21st street, or near it, where the line could come back to Hampton.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Sky06

[geszes]

You mean Redgate Ave? It's the access road for the NS Classification Yard. It's also too far from both Hampton Boulevard and Colley to produce any serious ridership.

Added: Hampton Boulevard is 2x2 lanes between EVMS and 25th Street, 2x2+1 middle lane between 25th and 38th Street, and 2x3 lanes + median between 38th and International Boulevard. Its capacity is really needed to handle not only the ~20% trucks, but also traffic around ODU, to the Midtown Tunnel, and to/from the Naval Base.

Edited June 27, 2008 by geszes

[Sky06]

It's an extension of Redgate. If they can build an overpass by the NS line near 21st street, they can connect to Powhatan behind ODU and run up that street until they reach 49th Street, where they can link into Hampton over by Foreman Field. That would make multiple stops at ODU possible. That is, for the 20,000+ students on campus. Seems worth it to me.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Sky06

[geszes]

From an ODU's point of view, the most advantageous path for the Light Rail would be down Hampton Boulevard. Between 38th Street and Bolling Avenue, the road can be widened, but north of Bolling are private homes close to the road and south of 38th there are only 4 or 5 lanes available and not enough space for widening.

The Redgate/Powhatan route would make little sense. Too close to the waterfront and the rail yard to provide ample coverage. Also, ODU's axis is expanding east, not west, and the campus is pleasantly walkable from the Elizabeth River to Killam Ave.

[Henry_Ryto]

From an ODU's point of view, the most advantageous path for the Light Rail would be down Hampton Boulevard. Between 38th Street and Bolling Avenue, the road can be widened, but north of Bolling are private homes close to the road and south of 38th there are only 4 or 5 lanes available and not enough space for widening.

The Redgate/Powhatan route would make little sense. Too close to the waterfront and the rail yard to provide ample coverage. Also, ODU's axis is expanding east, not west, and the campus is pleasantly walkable from the Elizabeth River to Killam Ave.

Funny that you bring up Killam. Early this month I had a chance to talk to someone who had sat on a Norfolk LRT committee.

His favored routing for going north: Killam Avenue.

[geszes]

Killam has the advantage of being a nearly deserted street, equidistant from Hampton Boulevard and Colley Ave. However, an additional over/underpass would be required for the Lambert's Point railroad tracks and the continuation both north and south of Killam would still be problematic.

A visual presentation of the Hampton/Colley routings:

Edited June 28, 2008 by geszes

[rusthebuss]

I believe they are going to have to elevate alot of that through that section.

[scm]

OK, all of you SimCity players, put down the crack pipe and end this idea of continuing the existing starter line N of EVMS. There are numerous problems, some of which you are wrestling with right now.

1. The routing is a problem, and you need to face political facts. Anything going up Colley to Jamestown Crescent is a non-starter, for two reasons. First, it is too far east of ODU to effectively serve that market. Second, and the real killer, the politically connected residents along Jamestown Crescent simply will not let it happen. End of story. And the Killam discsussion is interesting, but still doesn't address how you get from EVMS to 23rd St, even before you start looking at the realities of crossing the NS line. Those realities include the number of houses/businesses you will need to raze to build the approaches from both ends.

2. There is no evidence that any real number of NS Norfolk commuters will use LRT to get to work. Please, someone give me real data, other than "if you build it, they will come". They aren't coming to Express Buses -- I have heard the "I can't get home if there is an emergency" excuse. Guaranteed ride home could solve that, but for some reason it hasn't been implemented. Wonder why? Maybe the people that have the research realize it is nothing more than anecdotal?

3. Nothing you want to accomplish can't be accomplished by bus lines up Hampton or Colley from bus bays at EVMS. Dedicated lanes and bus signaling at intersections during rush hours. Nothing more onerous than what ever routing LR would run on. The problem that LR to the NS will face, is that it won't survive the analysis of alternatives required for federal funding. The immense capital cost of that line, will not produce greater benefit than express bus lines, to the level required to get the feds to part with the cash. Too much competition on a national basis for a pipe dream.

4. The highest and best use of federal, state, and local funds for LR expansion is either LR through a new Midtown tunnel tube to Portsmouth, which will tackle our real transit problems -- throughput at the water crossings -- or LR up the HOV lanes on 64 and then 564 (which would be WAY down on my list compared to a LR line through Portsmouth, London to Effingham, to the Shipyard.

All of this is fun, and interesting speculation -- sophisticated bar talk, if you will. Won't ever happen, for all of the reasons above.

[geszes]

3. Nothing you want to accomplish can't be accomplished by bus lines up Hampton or Colley from bus bays at EVMS. Dedicated lanes and bus signaling at intersections during rush hours. Nothing more onerous than what ever routing LR would run on.

Agreed. As I've stated before, ODU and 21st Street are well within bus reach of EVMS, and the planned new/adjusted lines will try to provide connections to the Tide a bit more effectively.

Speaking of anecdotal evidence, I'd love to come up with numbers, but every time I've ridden bus #2 (at varying times on weekdays), the overwhelming majority of riders disembarks by Little Creek Road and doesn't actually make it to the Naval Base...

4. The highest and best use of federal, state, and local funds for LR expansion is either LR through a new Midtown tunnel tube to Portsmouth, which will tackle our real transit problems -- throughput at the water crossings -- or LR up the HOV lanes on 64 and then 564 (which would be WAY down on my list compared to a LR line through Portsmouth, London to Effingham, to the Shipyard.

While I agree with the Portsmouth connection, it is then surprising how officials claim to favor an extension to ODU and NSN. One wonders if they are stuck in the era of drawing straight lines on a map, and plopping stations at the larger intersections.

In all reality, the starter line will probably be here to stay in its unaltered form for quite a while, which then brings me to my next point: Military Highway Station on Curlew Drive. Oddly enough, the Military Highway Corridor District Comprehensive Plan discusses the prospect of Transit-Oriented Development only as a possible future item that they might spend some time planning for

[scm]

While I agree with the Portsmouth connection, it is then surprising how officials claim to favor an extension to ODU and NSN.

Not all of them.....

Portsmouth sees a light-rail hub at its end of the tunnel

I don't think it will be politically possible to spend more state money in Norfolk on LR before you spend a dime in Portsmouth. Ken Chandler, the new City Manager, came here from Arlington. He knows the positive effect on tax base that comes from TOD. Portsmouth will insist on this extension, if for no other reasons than the positive economic benefits.