Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[cpeakesqr]

I think one option is a commuter rail alongside, or in the middle of the western freeway.

Have you been on the Western Freeway recently? Not much room anymore...

[mlsimons]

Have you been on the Western Freeway recently? Not much room anymore...

why, whats up

[VAGATOR]

why, whats up

They are moving the heavy rail tracks to the median to 664.

[virginia pe]

I know if there was a stop near my house i would definately ride the tide but im not going to drive to a park and ride and then ride. Its more like an attraction. But I wonder how long it will take to get light rail to all of these destinations.? Is HRT even thinking about it?

But would you get get on a bus in your neighborhood and ride to the light rail station? For example, if you lived in Indian Lakes off Indian River Road in Kempsville, would you catch a bus and ride up Kempsville Road to catch the Tide at the Witchduck Station? Part of the light rail concept is to revamp the bus system to be a feeder system for light rail instead of moving people from their home neighborhood to their final destination.

[virginia pe]

The problem is you have to get so many different cities on board. Its not like on city and maybe 2 counties to work with. You have around 7 municipalities to get on board. Thats the real problem with this region. Too many chiefs trying to be the lead chief.

I agree that this is the case with most issues in this region, but not with light rail. Norfolk is the undisputed lead chief, because they put their money where their mouth is.

If light rail is successful with their starter line in Norfolk, it will undoubtedly expand to the other cities, for whichever routes can show enough ridership to meet federal financing guidelines.

[virginia pe]

currently, the next line is already in planning. It will run from the current line up to NOB. Although the planning will determine the route, it would most likely run by Military Circle and the Airport and then follow I64 to the base with stops at places like wards corner.

I agree with Norfolk4Life that the I-64 corridor is the most logical route for a light rail line to the Naval Base, even though Fraim said it would continue past EVMS and around Lambert's Point and up Hampton Boulevard. Mayor Fraim can say whatever he wants to as long as Norfolk is the only player in the game. I believe eventually Virginia Beach will join in, and when they do, everything will change. Virginia Beach people want to go the the Naval Base, and they do not want to have to ride to downtown and the medical complex to get there.

[Norfolk4Life]

I agree with you. I think light rail must be expanded to every city in hampton roads and truly be a regional system with the buses and trains all in sync. Without it i dont think it will be that succesful. I know if there was a stop near my house i would definately ride the tide but im not going to drive to a park and ride and then ride. Its more like an attraction. But I wonder how long it will take to get light rail to all of these destinations.? Is HRT even thinking about it?

It is not HRT's place to think about it. It is the city that the line would run through. HRT has already started the EIS for a line to go to NOB. They are using the old EIS to revise for an extension into VA Beach. Virginia Beach has the line in their Master Transportation Plan (MTP). Portsmouth and Chesapeake also include light rail corridors in their MTPs. It is more of a matter of getting an offical green light from the city along with a financial committment so that HRT can begin lobbying the feds for money.

[metalman]

* moved to va beach forum where it belongs*

Edited January 15, 2009 by metalman

[urbanlife]

The problem is you have to get so many different cities on board. Its not like on city and maybe 2 counties to work with. You have around 7 municipalities to get on board. Thats the real problem with this region. Too many chiefs trying to be the lead chief.

the issue isnt the number of cities, it is how they work together. Here in Portland we have several cities working together to create a system. Sure Portland is the biggest city in the network, but we have a bureau that is called Metro that handles all the regional things such as buses and light rail. It would be in the best interest for the region to create something like a local senate that would handle anything that involved the region.

Actually now that I mention that, I think a local senate would be a good idea for the area. A representative or two from each city would be elected to it and would have right to vote for whatever they wished to have happen within the region, thus meaning to get things done, they would have to get a majority to agree and work together.

Light rail for HR is going to be much different than most systems. Most systems have a core that all buses and rail lead to. HR doesnt have that one core. Sure one could argue that it is downtown Norfolk, but how many people work and live in downtown Norfolk compared to other parts of the city? I think for HR's sake, there will have to be target locations for rail such as the oceanfront, the airport, NOB, and so on. Making these lines the main source of public transportation, the region would then be able to restructure HRT to focus on each stop which in turn would allow them to not be focused on central locations in the city like they currently are. Combining this with park and rides (which might I add do work to the point that it can get annoying when the garage is full) with new bus routes would increase ridership and help reduce the dependency on cars.

[varider]

The problem is you have to get so many different cities on board. Its not like on city and maybe 2 counties to work with. You have around 7 municipalities to get on board. Thats the real problem with this region. Too many chiefs trying to be the lead chief.

I went all the seven cities websites and all except suffolk have plans in their long range transportation plans for light rail. Newport News even had it extending across the river. I dont think getting everyone on board is a problem after seeing this.

[Telmnstr]

We should but we have some huge obsticals that other regions are not dealing with. Thats waterways that is used by ships that would require tunnels. This adds huge amount on cost of our expansions. Only time will tell

You don't HAVE to have a bridge. You could have a barge type thing that the train rolls onto, then it carrys it across the waterway. Sure, it might be a death trap in the case of an accident, but it could be guided by lasers for cool factor.

[Norfolk4Life]

the issue isnt the number of cities, it is how they work together. Here in Portland we have several cities working together to create a system. Sure Portland is the biggest city in the network, but we have a bureau that is called Metro that handles all the regional things such as buses and light rail. It would be in the best interest for the region to create something like a local senate that would handle anything that involved the region.

Actually now that I mention that, I think a local senate would be a good idea for the area. A representative or two from each city would be elected to it and would have right to vote for whatever they wished to have happen within the region, thus meaning to get things done, they would have to get a majority to agree and work together.

Light rail for HR is going to be much different than most systems. Most systems have a core that all buses and rail lead to. HR doesnt have that one core. Sure one could argue that it is downtown Norfolk, but how many people work and live in downtown Norfolk compared to other parts of the city? I think for HR's sake, there will have to be target locations for rail such as the oceanfront, the airport, NOB, and so on. Making these lines the main source of public transportation, the region would then be able to restructure HRT to focus on each stop which in turn would allow them to not be focused on central locations in the city like they currently are. Combining this with park and rides (which might I add do work to the point that it can get annoying when the garage is full) with new bus routes would increase ridership and help reduce the dependency on cars.

We have something like that. It is called the Hampton Roads Planning District Commission. Along with the Transportation District Commission, they are required by federal law to give a regional approval and support for all major transportation projects. The problem we have here is history. In HR, the cities used to be Norfolk, Portsmouth, and South Norfolk. Virginia Beach was but a small beach town. Princess Anne County and Norfolk County made up what is now VB and Ches. After integration of the schools, the wealthier white moved out of the city and into the suburbs of the counties. This drained Norfolk's 350,000 residents down to less than 150,000. Norfolk did what any city would do and began annexing land. Fearing that they would be taken back into Norfolk and in response to Norfolk's threats to cut off their water, Princess Anne County merged with the city of Virginia Beach and Norfolk County merged with South Norfolk, becoming Chesapeake. The older residents in our area that moved out in the 50s and 60s HAVE NOT BEEN BACK to Norfolk since. They believe that Norfolk is still a crime-ridden city with a downtown full of vacant lots. It is these older residents that have their voices heard. Older people have a higher voter turnout and usually have more time on their hands to talk to their city councils. The young people of our area want and need a regional city. Contrary to popular belief, young people WANT to be able to ride transit. Unfortunately, in today's fast-paced world, you can't afford to spend 3 hours on a bus each way to work.

[urbanlife]

I know the history of the area seeing I grew up there, but for the life of me, I cannot remember those two commissions in Hampton Roads. Which is good that they have those in place, they would probably be in best interest to give them a bit bigger control when it comes to pushing ideas. I am guessing that other than having to sign off on things the cities propose, they can only really suggest things each city should be doing? Though I could be wrong, anyone here know more about these two commissions?

When I sold my condo in VB before moving west, I had to sign some closing papers. The real estate agent was surprised that I was willing to come to their office in downtown Norfolk to sign them. Usually for VB they just send them to one of their smaller offices in VB because there is so many people in VB that refuse to go to Norfolk. While I am very vested in the history of the region, I often times wonder what it must of been like to be alive then and that much afraid of one's own downtown.

As for the transportation issue, I have to agree, it will be the younger population and the new residents there that come from cities that do have light rail that are going to be the key riders. One of my issues for wishing to leave there, was my desire to seek out a city that didnt need to rely solely on cars for transportation. I figured I would have to move to Chicago or NYC, but then I found Portland. Though I still get excited about reading any new projects that are happening in my hometown and hope one day I will be able to have some architecture designed in that metro.

[Norfolk4Life]

Before they merged, the HRPDC was formerly the Tidewater PDC and the Peninsula PDC. Now, the HRPDC is such a useful organization *cough* that it is under federal mandate to reform of be dissolved and replaced.

[mlsimons]

We have something like that. It is called the Hampton Roads Planning District Commission. Along with the Transportation District Commission, they are required by federal law to give a regional approval and support for all major transportation projects. The problem we have here is history. In HR, the cities used to be Norfolk, Portsmouth, and South Norfolk. Virginia Beach was but a small beach town. Princess Anne County and Norfolk County made up what is now VB and Ches. After integration of the schools, the wealthier white moved out of the city and into the suburbs of the counties. This drained Norfolk's 350,000 residents down to less than 150,000. Norfolk did what any city would do and began annexing land. Fearing that they would be taken back into Norfolk and in response to Norfolk's threats to cut off their water, Princess Anne County merged with the city of Virginia Beach and Norfolk County merged with South Norfolk, becoming Chesapeake. The older residents in our area that moved out in the 50s and 60s HAVE NOT BEEN BACK to Norfolk since. They believe that Norfolk is still a crime-ridden city with a downtown full of vacant lots. It is these older residents that have their voices heard. Older people have a higher voter turnout and usually have more time on their hands to talk to their city councils. The young people of our area want and need a regional city. Contrary to popular belief, young people WANT to be able to ride transit. Unfortunately, in today's fast-paced world, you can't afford to spend 3 hours on a bus each way to work.

This is true.

[varider]

I've been thinking about the train...

do you guys think that the starter line will really be succesful..

because i have doubts..

and if its not succesful will that keep it from becoming regional.

[rusthebuss]

I've been thinking about the train...

do you guys think that the starter line will really be succesful..

because i have doubts..

and if its not succesful will that keep it from becoming regional.

I don't know if people can get off the stereotypes that they keep screaming. We really need it but i just don't know. The problem here is that there is so many people that are hanging on the fence and then the minority of people against it are so vocal, i just don't know. People here are really scared of change. We have to do something but...i guess time will tell.

[urbanlife]

I've been thinking about the train...

do you guys think that the starter line will really be succesful..

because i have doubts..

and if its not succesful will that keep it from becoming regional.

how many people thought the town center was a bad idea before it was constructed compared to how many people use it now and enjoy having an urban location in VB?

Will the starter line be successful in the sense of money it brings in? Hell no, there is a reason why city rail companies all went under back in the day. Will it be successful with riders, eventually yes it will be. Much of the initial ridership is going to be very internal. People riding to EVMS area to areas downtown. The part that runs out towards the east side of the city will probably see more traffic among college students and poorer people...that is the part of the line that will need monitoring...not saying poor people are bad, I am saying middle class is afraid of the poor people.

Once the line runs out towards VB, there will be a bigger change in the mindset. Harborfest is where the line will really shine. You will be surprised how many people will do the park and ride in VB to go down and spend the day in Harborfest when they realize that the park and ride lot is free or costs very little and the cost of the train ride in to downtown is cheaper than gas....VB people hate parking in downtown Norfolk.

Will there be problems along the way? hell yeah there will be, but nothing is perfect in the world.

[lammius]

I think initially it will have great success as a circulator within downtown. So carrying workers, visitors, downtown diners, etc. from one end of downtown to the other. Or carrying office workers from satellite parking to office areas (if there are any office areas which don't have a surplus of parking on or near site). People who work at City Hall will take it up to Granby St to get lunch, rather than walk. Tourists will take it to get from the Chrysler Museum back to their hotel on Main St. It will carry a few people to festivals at TPP and Tides games. Serving these types of trips, I think the LRT will be a huge hit. And this may be enough to get the LRT close to meeting its ridership projections, which would be great!

But the outer ends of the route will probably not be too busy, IMO. At least not until the LRT connects major activity centers--the places people come from and go to, outside downtown Norfolk. So once the LRT is extended to Va Beach, in other words. OR until parking becomes so constrained downtown that people find it easier or cheaper to park at a park and ride on Newtown Road and use the train. OR when transit-oriented redevelopment opportunities within the City of Norfolk are seized. Then LRT will serve a real, useful transportation purpose outside the urban core.

On that note, I saw a remark previously about the relocation of the Military Highway station. The previously-planned location for the station west of Military Highway would have put LRT within walking distance of some of the office buildings in that corporate park. However, the corporate park is an automobile-oriented development. It has a ton of surface parking, wide open spaces between buildings, etc. Not that many office spaces are within 1000 feet of the LRT station. NJ has a ton of these types of parks, and after transit came to some of them, the mode split didn't change much. Auto oriented facilities attract autos. They're not fun places to commute to via transit, mostly because of the experience of walking from the station to the desk. They need to be redeveloped, and that's hard to do when you have viable business going on in the existing park, and you have zoning limits, and you need to keep water retention on site and can't design additional development within your envelope. Moving the station east of Military Highway, provides the opportunity to redevelop what is an (did someone say vacant or partially vacant??) industrial park into something that would actually tie into the LRT station, with walkable spaces and the office/residential/whatever spaces concentrated closest to the LRT station. Some real TOD. And in the mean time, a park and ride could be developed, which would probably induce much more ridership demand than the old commerce park anyway. The auto-oriented corporate park across the highway can run a shuttle over to catch the 12 workers who may use the LRT instead of parking in front of the office, or encourage workers to bring folding bikes on the train.

[mlsimons]

Will the starter line be successful in the sense of money it brings in? Hell no, there is a reason why city rail companies all went under back in the day. Will it be successful with riders, eventually yes it will be. Much of the initial ridership is going to be very internal. People riding to EVMS area to areas downtown. The part that runs out towards the east side of the city will probably see more traffic among college students and poorer people...that is the part of the line that will need monitoring...not saying poor people are bad, I am saying middle class is afraid of the poor people.

I'm sure if it will be that bad, the only "at risk station" in my opinion is the NSU station due to some low income housing surrounding. But even that station should mainly be college students. Brambleton station is fairly nice, Ingleside is a little nicer, the military hwy station was supposed to be nice surrounding but I don't know about the exact location of the move. And the Newtown road station really shouldn't be bad either.

come to think of it, the station goes thru some really nice surroundings for the most part.

[brikkman]

I'm sure if it will be that bad, the only "at risk station" in my opinion is the NSU station due to some low income housing surrounding. But even that station should mainly be college students. Brambleton station is fairly nice, Ingleside is a little nicer, the military hwy station was supposed to be nice surrounding but I don't know about the exact location of the move. And the Newtown road station really shouldn't be bad either.

come to think of it, the station goes thru some really nice surroundings for the most part.

I do not think the issue is the areas it goes or "will" go through, it is a reluctants to change. Russ said it best, people do not want to change. We are talking about changing a majority suburban area "more" urban and people do not like that when it comes from tax money. People work all their lives to be able to afford their benz and bimmers and they will sit in traffic all day before they are willing to give that up. There is no such thing as a "white collar" line, people will have to get over that notion. All of these nice offices in DT need cleaning people and other supportive type of work to help them function, those are the types of jobs students and poorer people take. If they were all making 70/80k, we would not call them poor. Most people who are for this development, aside from the poor, are well off individuals who look at it as a tool for commuting purposes. If I could afford two cars, I would leave my G in the garage drive a 4 clinder car to work to save money on gas. My best friend leaves his more expensive car at home and drives an old accord to work because its better on gas. So again, people who oppose it will usually be people who want to retain their glits and glamour in life and will never go that low to ride the tide...Oh, unless they have friends in town and want to show off granby, amfram/habor fest, or a tides game so they can take in the ambience of it all..

[Norfolk4Life]

My best friend leaves his more expensive car at home and drives an old accord to work because its better on gas. So again, people who oppose it will usually be people who want to retain their glits and glamour in life and will never go that low to ride the tide...Oh, unless they have friends in town and want to show off granby, amfram/habor fest, or a tides game so they can take in the ambience of it all..

That is the type of people that would ride the line. If they are willing to be seen drive to work in old probably "beater" car to save on gas, then they would surely consider using the LRT.

[mlsimons]

This is taken from the minutes of the Downtown norfolk council meeting:

The Tide (Light Rail)

[urbanfan]

This is taken from the minutes of the Downtown norfolk council meeting:

The Tide (Light Rail)

Edited January 16, 2009 by urbanfan

[mlsimons]

Lambert's point is considered the portion of light rail that crosses the existing rail line that eventually leads to Lambert's Point. There has to be an elevated section over this area to clear the right of way for trains that still use this track. Therefore, the viaduct, is nothing more than an elevated section of track.

Thanks.