Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[varider]

Anyone know when the library is coming down? I've had a camera taking pictures of it for a month to make a cool video. I've got 6000 photos and only a scaffold to show.

It should be completely leveled by the end of august..

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/asbestos-n...demolition-cost

Kirn Memorial Library, which is being readied for demolition for a light-rail station, is far more laced with asbestos than anyone ever thought.

It's in the ceiling, the walls, the columns and even the glue on the floor.

To remove and dispose of the hazardous material, Hampton Roads Transit's board acted Thursday to add $593,000 to the demolition contract, which now totals $1.5 million.

Norfolk councilman and HRT board member W. Randy Wright said the overall light-rail budget, $288 million, will not change.

"It is part of existing contingency funds," he said.

Even before Thursday's change, the demolition contract with S.B. Cox Inc. was triple the original projections - all because of asbestos. The contract covers razing Kirn on City Hall Avenue as well as the Baylor Building on York Street, which is now gone.

The full extent of the asbestos could not be identified until the library moved books out at the end of 2008 and crews could open up walls and floors and test the material.

Most of Kirn's books and staff moved to a smaller building, the historic Seaboard Building, which was renamed Norfolk Main Library. Over the next four years, a $50 million addition will be built onto Seaboard.

Much of the hazardous material in Kirn has already been dealt with.

Crews will use an excavator to knock down the 47-year-old former main library, beginning on July 6. The site will be cleared by the end of August, said Fred Schneader, HRT's senior vice president for construction.

HRT is partnering with the city to build a 7.4-mile light-rail line beginning at the medical center near Brambleton Avenue, going through downtown and reaching the city line at Newtown Road.

The line is projected to open in late summer or early fall of 2010.

After doing some traveling on I-664 on my weekend trips out of HR, I noticed that new rail sprouting up in the median and just did some research on it. Called the Commonwealth Railway Mainline Safety Relocation Project, the project's abandonment of the existing rail going through 14 at-grade crossings immediately got me thinking on how this could be a future right-of-way for any Light Rail extensions.

What does everyone think about this? Will it work, is it effective, etc.?

I don't think its legal for light rail cars to operate on the same right of way as freight trains.. Commuter rail possibly, but not light rail

[lammius]

I don't think its legal for light rail cars to operate on the same right of way as freight trains.. Commuter rail possibly, but not light rail

It happens. I can think of one example in New Jersey, and there may be others elsewhere. The River Line between Trenton and Camden is a DMU light rail which operates on a CSX rail line. The only stinky thing about it is NJTRANSIT runs its service during the day and has to stop at 10PM so the CSX trains can run full tilt at night. With commuter rail, operating on active freight lines happens all the time.

Edited July 1, 2009 by lammius

[varider]

I bet the freight lines coming into HR are more frequently travelled than the NJ freight lines.. Every time I'm on 460 I see a freight train.. I don't think it'd be feasible here

[New Name]

I don't think its legal for light rail cars to operate on the same right of way as freight trains.. Commuter rail possibly, but not light rail

We just had a similar conversation in the Charlotte forum about this.

The only other example of LTR running on freight tracks are in San Diego (near the border with Tijuana).

I'm watching this thread from Charlotte - how about some more pictures!!!

[varider]

There's plenty of pics on this website.

http://www.ridethetide.com

[Case]

If that's not an incentive to ride the Tide, I don't know what is! They should put that in promotional videos.

I know I'm a bit late on commenting about the above "Soulja Girl" video, but I was truly saddened by the distribution of that video a few months back.. As some someone who practically grew up on Marta (started riding alone around 12 years old) I constantly attempted to inform skeptical people (often whites) that this sort of thing was rare. Now I have a few stories to tell but most of the odd things I witness happen at hours when I probably should have be home anyway (i.e. 1am).

I have no real fear of incidents like this occurring on the Tide. Like I said this sort of this was rare in Atlanta, where believe me the crazy quotient is exceeding higher there than anywhere in HR.

But the persistent fear (or the political use) of scene's like this video has servery stunted the growth of Marta in the Atlanta Metro, where It should be twice as large. One bad incident could be difference between expansion into VA Beach or not. Trust me (like in the Atlanta metro) one ugly incident will be used as "Willie Horton" to kill the further projects. We can only hope and be vigilant.

Edited July 2, 2009 by Case

[mikeas]

I know I'm a bit late on commenting about the above "Soulja Girl" video, but I was truly saddened by the distribution of that video a few months back.. As some someone who practically grew up on Marta (started riding alone around 12 years old) I constantly attempted to inform skeptical people (often whites) that this sort of thing was rare. Now I have a few stories to tell but most of the odd things I witness happen at hours when I probably should have be home anyway (i.e. 1am).

I have no real fear of incidents like this occurring on the Tide. Like I said this sort of this was rare in Atlanta, where believe me the crazy quotient is exceeding higher there than anywhere in HR.

But the persistent fear (or the political use) of scene's like this video has servery stunted the growth of Marta in the Atlanta Metro, where It should be twice as large. One bad incident could be difference between expansion into VA Beach or not. Trust me (like in the Atlanta metro) one ugly incident will be used as "Willie Horton" to kill the further projects. We can only hope and be vigilant.

Like I said previously when I posted a link to that video. If it happens to me someone's getting a sharp metal object stuck in them.

[lammius]

I bet the freight lines coming into HR are more frequently travelled than the NJ freight lines..

Generally speaking, no. But in the case of the River Line, yes. The RL is in South Jersey, away from the ports and the logistics hubs and it's not CSX's most vital route. And the LRT line there isn't a heavy hitter either. I think they're lucky if they get 10,000 riders/day. But the point was, mixing FRT and LRT can be done and has been done.

I don't think it'd be feasible here

Agreed. I wouldn't recommend light rail on the 460 corridor. LRT is best for urban environments, and Ivor isn't one. The only pax rail talked about on that corridor is HSR, which I think would interface with the NS operations beautifully. The 460 rail line has an FRA density code of 4 (out of 7). It gets good use, but there's room to expand operations and do a lot more with that corridor.

[ronsmytheiii]

larger sizes here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/ronsmytheiii/S...425228396459138

[geszes]

I'm really glad Brussels was brought up earlier; I hail from Hungary and have grown up riding mass transit for most of my life, and it surprises me that solutions routinely used in Europe and others parts of the world are thought impossible here. Just a simple example: earlier in the thread, whether light rail could travel through Ghent feasibly was debated, but it's a fairly common occurrence for light rail / trams to share a lane with road traffic, where it obeys signals just like any other vehicle.

This solution is often used for dense urban environments where there's no space to give the train a fully dedicated right-of-way... which is exactly the situation in Ghent. Light rail on Colley, or a lesser street like Manteo is indeed doable, it's just that it requires a little out-of-the box thinking.

But of course, Hampton Roads is not Western Europe, and this is especially apparent with the area's development patterns, and the difference in density. Investment in transit is admirable, but the average citizen needs to be able to get to work and back home, to the movies, to the nearest mall, and to the nearest casual dining restaurant without using their car, or using their car only to drive to a Park-and-Ride lot.

Speaking of Park-and-Ride lots, this concept needs to be expanded into what other urban areas often call "Transit Centers", and it has been described with regard to Brussels a couple posts prior: destinations unto themselves; not just a place where you drive to park your car to subsequently ride the light rail or a bus, but also the site of a restaurant, a coffee shop, a convenience store, and the like, not just a hodgepodge of developments, but clearly part of the same locale: the station. The vicinity of these transit centers should be defined by transit-oriented development.

The big problem with the Tide alignment east of NSU is that it stays inconveniently far away from major destinations: Military Circle Mall, Greenwich Road Office Park, Norfolk Industrial Park, Sentara Leigh Hospital; therefore those stations are merely connections to the much less popular bus system, and their traffic will be disappointingly low. Transit-oriented development is the solution: make the stations relevant by development, increasing departures and arrivals. Since every TOD-friendly area east of NSU is also immediately adjacent to an I-264 exit, an immense opportunity exists to develop an urban backbone for Norfolk.

But another thing is different between Europe and here: European nations are used to high taxes, that in turn, pay for a wealth of public services, healthcare, enviable schools, and excellent infrastructure. The prevailing mentality here, on the other hand, is that taxes are evil, and that the government mismanages public funds, and therefore everything should be left as-is. Even though this area is dominated by automobile use, this spend-nothing, build-nothing attitude extends to roads as well. The private sector can often offer a quick-benefit solution, but will ultimately siphon money out of our pockets in the long run. Of course, most of us who frequent these forums know what needs to be done, but until we can convince the vocal and politically influential naysayers (more than half of the General Assembly seems to represent them), most of what this area needs will never be built.

[Case]

But another thing is different between Europe and here: European nations are used to high taxes, that in turn, pay for a wealth of public services, healthcare, enviable schools, and excellent infrastructure. The prevailing mentality here, on the other hand, is that taxes are evil, and that the government mismanages public funds, and therefore everything should be left as-is. Even though this area is dominated by automobile use, this spend-nothing, build-nothing attitude extends to roads as well. The private sector can often offer a quick-benefit solution, but will ultimately siphon money out of our pockets in the long run. Of course, most of us who frequent these forums know what needs to be done, but until we can convince the vocal and politically influential naysayers (more than half of the General Assembly seems to represent them), most of what this area needs will never be built.

The US in general has become ideologically paralyzed when in comes to transit and development. An anti-tax cult has taken hold opposing all taxes and projects which require them no matter how much good the project would do for society at large. The "Government is the Problem" retort has sank in the cultural membrane of society causing a quick knee jerk reaction from many people to appose doing much of anything. We all know something has to be done about the HRBT, the Midtown Tunnel and the already closed Jordan Bridge, but the moment that anyone makes a proposal the naysayer go into overdrive. Apparently everyone paying a couple dollars more a year is too steep a price to prevent 2 hours standard waits to go to and from the Peninsula. The fear of wasting money has some how superseded the fear of killing our regional economy.

What was really sad was the Jordan Bridge was allowed to close without much of a peep from the Cities directly affected. Paul Fraim was more vocal in pressing for a solution than officials from Chesapeake, who are pending money to revitalize South Norfolk. The Jordan bridge was a crucial part of that plan.

[mistermetaj]

But another thing is different between Europe and here: European nations are used to high taxes, that in turn, pay for a wealth of public services, healthcare, enviable schools, and excellent infrastructure. The prevailing mentality here, on the other hand, is that taxes are evil, and that the government mismanages public funds, and therefore everything should be left as-is. Even though this area is dominated by automobile use, this spend-nothing, build-nothing attitude extends to roads as well. The private sector can often offer a quick-benefit solution, but will ultimately siphon money out of our pockets in the long run. Of course, most of us who frequent these forums know what needs to be done, but until we can convince the vocal and politically influential naysayers (more than half of the General Assembly seems to represent them), most of what this area needs will never be built.

US overall has much better colleges than Europe. K-12 is a different story...i guess...

Universal health care is a hotly debated issue.

comparing infrastructure between the US and Europe is impossible. The US is still overall a car culture and maintains the largest highway system in the world. Unfortunately, the govt cannot simply throw money at public transit projects that never got off the ground years ago.

On a smaller scale, areas like Va Beach and Norfolk are tiny compared to any major European city, and could not afford to do things with less people paying into the system regardless...

This area does have a crazy anti government managing public funds mentality unfortunately...

Lightrail is in the works and high speed rail is being discussed...Norfolk is not going to mirror any European cities. You need to change the suburban culture before you'll get anything like that, and that is something mass transit cannot do.

[New Name]

It's always going to be an uphill battle, because you are talking about rearranging the priorities on which the US was built (namely: freedom of personal choice, free market system, and croniesm). Happy 5th of July! The majority of Americans are interested in their own betterment - with a happy biproduct being a cohesive society. 300 years and we still can't admit that a cohesive society can lead to our own betterment. It sure would be nice if everyone could get together on this one, but again - this was not part of the foundation on which the US was built - we're allowed dissent - and dammit, we're going to dissent!

[varider]

http://www.gohrt.com/pressroom/?p=530

NORFOLK, Va. - The Tide is rapidly approaching downtown Norfolk.The first indication that construction will begin soon in the downtown area will become clear on Monday, July 6 at 11:00 a.m. when construction crews begin the process of demolishing the Kirn Memorial Library.

The 47 year-old library is being raised to clear the way for the construction of a light rail passenger station.

Of the 11 passenger stations planned for the 7.4 mile light rail system, the station at the corner of City Hall Avenue and Bank Street will be the largest. Passengers are expected to begin riding the $288 million Tide in 2010.

The historic Seaboard Building is now serving as the city

[brikkman]

I hate hearing about this station. Such a waste, a great project could have went in that spot along with LRT.

Hey, just got a great idea for that spot that I assume is cheap and great for tourist and the people of Norfolk. How about an observation deck? Like a long cylinder that goes straight up with elevators that takes you up to a point in the air where you can see the city and take pictures. That would be unique.

Edited July 7, 2009 by brikkman

[lammius]

I hate hearing about this station. Such a waste, a great project could have went in that spot along with LRT.

Hey, just got a great idea for that spot that I assume is cheap and great for tourist and the people of Norfolk. How about an observation deck? Like a long cylinder that goes straight up with elevators that takes you up to a point in the air where you can see the city and take pictures. That would be unique.

Worse, I hate misuse of words in press releases. The building isn't being "raised." That would be quite a feat. I think the author intended to used the word "razed."

I like your idea, brikkman. Or how about a 35-story reverse bungee! More fun than an obs. deck.

[Telmnstr]

Kirn Memorial Library is coming down pretty quickly.

Getting thousands of photos of it, as well :-)

They are loading the scrap into trucks as it comes down. Appear to be sorting steel girders, aluminum and then the other debris.

I feel bad for the Kirns. They donated all this money to build the library, and now it's getting tossed. Their name will get rubbed out by Battan.

They didn't appear to save the marble name plate of the library or anything.

[jbhay]

I was driving down VaBeach Blvd. yesterday and then took the Rosemont Rd. exit to I-264 W and noticed a rail line just sitting there, taken over my grass and immediately recognized it's light rail potential. I can't believe I never noticed this before. (I don't get out to Va.Beach often)

I've been on Google Maps this morning checking out the rail and noticed it's drawn to Pacific Ave. but actually ceases WAY before that.

This is most likely what Sessoms has been discussing lately with NS for right-of-way privileges for LR extensions. There is so much potential along this line, most obviously, Town Center. I'm sure this has been discussed heavily in this thread, but this is definitely worth talking about more. This is going to bring great TOD to VB. I'm just upset that the rail line still doesn't exist to the Oceanfront anymore. This reminded me of my first trip to Coney Island in June and how awesome the elevated track was and how dense Brooklyn was because of it. I can imagine people coming to HR and riding the Tide all the way to the Oceanfront and then taking it downtown in the evenings. I'm getting more and more excited about LR in HR, it's really going to change the way we get around.

It really needs to spread to Chesapeake too because the city is young enough to really make way for some great TOD and future extensions. There could be a huge Park & Ride facility at Chesapeake City Park in the populated Greenbrier area (where I live) that could connect with the rest of the system. Chesapeake's is nicknamed "Virginia's Future", but I'm starting to think that the Tide will adopt that slogan soon enough!

[Telmnstr]

I was driving down VaBeach Blvd. yesterday and then took the Rosemont Rd. exit to I-264 W and noticed a rail line just sitting there, taken over my grass and immediately recognized it's light rail potential. I can't believe I never noticed this before. (I don't get out to Va.Beach often)

That is the line that the city of Virginia Beach taxes Norfolk Southern 20 million for, but is preparing to pay them $40 million to buy it. And are patting themselves on the back for a job well done.

That is the same line that is going to be used for light rail, up to the Shoneys stop or whatever.

It would be interesting to see who bought property near the light rail line before it was announced.

[mistermetaj]

I hate hearing about this station. Such a waste, a great project could have went in that spot along with LRT.

Hey, just got a great idea for that spot that I assume is cheap and great for tourist and the people of Norfolk. How about an observation deck? Like a long cylinder that goes straight up with elevators that takes you up to a point in the air where you can see the city and take pictures. That would be unique.

I have grown fond of the "station" actually. I'd like to think about it more as just a good public space for Norfolk with a little outdoor mall than a station. Outside of TPP, Norfolk really doesn't have a good public space to utilize. TPP still also feels disconnected(IMO anyway) from DT, so this is the first hopefully good public outdoor space downtown.

[varider]

There is so much potential along this line, most obviously, Town Center. I'm sure this has been discussed heavily in this thread, but this is definitely worth talking about more. This is going to bring great TOD to VB.

This is exactly how I see it. I have a feeling Transit Oriented Development is going to surround the whole rail line from Newtown Road all the way to Atlantic Avenue.. It's going to be absolutely amazing. Just wait and see guys.

[Telmnstr]

This is exactly how I see it. I have a feeling Transit Oriented Development is going to surround the whole rail line from Newtown Road all the way to Atlantic Avenue.. It's going to be absolutely amazing. Just wait and see guys.

Do you really think it's going to be that big of a deal? I'm not excited about the train. The *only* benefit I could see is being able to ride it to the oceanfront to go to flipper mccoys, and then the benefit is just avoiding the lack of parking at the oceanfront. Then again, given a big enough place I could just build my own personal arcade of decent size.

I'd never pay a premium to live near the rail line, if anything you should get a discount.

I like trains as much as the next white male, but I'm realistic about it. Sure, it'd be *GREAT* if everyone rides the thing so I get the roads to myself, but I think others probably have the same opinion.

It's not like the train is going to take people from $120K jobs to $500K condos.

I still say we all chip in and pay like 100 homeless people to hang out on it on the opening days.

[varider]

Yes, I really do think it will be a big deal. All you have to do is look at Norfolk's TOD and times that by like 10.. Virginia Beach is ripe for development.. They are building medium density apartment buildings all over the city.. Suburban VB is through with.. People want to live in an urban Virginia Beach.. Look at Town Center, look at the Pembroke Implementation Plan citizen input, why aren't you excited lol. I am willing to bet that as soon as the deal is announced transit oriented developments will come out of the wood work. Well over $2 billion

[Sky06]

That is the line that the city of Virginia Beach taxes Norfolk Southern 20 million for, but is preparing to pay them $40 million to buy it. And are patting themselves on the back for a job well done.

Wrong. The state is kicking in $20M of the cost.

[Sky06]

Do you really think it's going to be that big of a deal? I'm not excited about the train. The *only* benefit I could see is being able to ride it to the oceanfront to go to flipper mccoys, and then the benefit is just avoiding the lack of parking at the oceanfront.

I think the Wright Brothers' neighbors said the same thing. Except it was Montgomery Ward, not Flipper Mccoys.