Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[varider]

I suspect that a lot more time and money would be required for an extension to the Naval Base, as well as having much more of an impact for roads/businesses/housing. One of the greatest features of the current Norfolk line/possible Virginia Beach line is that most of it uses the old Norfolk Southern line, which has been closed and is not used. Going from the Medical Campus, near Granby, by ODU, and to the base will involve a ton of road closures and eminent domain usage, which will bog the project down. Don't expect this section to be nearly as easy as the current line or even the Beach option.

Edit: Looks like the best way would be to follow Hampton Boulevard, can you imagine the congestion this would create with construction? Not to mention that it would probably have to be elevated. Wow, we probably would need federal funding for this section.

I was actually referring to the I-64 corridor extension. Up past Military Hwy, Wards Corner, Naval Base, etc. I am thinking a streetcar sytem would be better for the extension up Hampton Blvd. and ODU. In the meantime, ODU students have busses that can take them to EVMS to get on the train and transfer for free.

[ronsmytheiii]

The firm, which is based in Omaha, Neb., and maintains a Norfolk office, also will conduct an alternatives analysis for connecting to Norfolk Naval Station, one of the region

[varider]

http://www.gohrt.com/pressroom/?p=413

Military Highway/I-64 would probably be the least disruptive to implement, but would totally leave out Granby and ODu, so I think that is least desirable from a development standpoint. Monticello Avenue/Granby Street goes right by the Zoo, but again leaves out ODU/Ghent. So I suspect Norfolk will push for Hampton Boulevard (or use Colley for the southern portion).

The problem is, it's no way in the world your fitting light rail tracks on Colley or Hampton. They are so densely populated and trafficked. The population density on Hampton Blvd. is like 15,000 sq. mile. I think it'd be possible to go through West Ghent/ Lambert's Point, but that would basically leave out all of the residential neighborhoods closer to downtown, but it would get to ODU in less than 5 minutes.

If it were up to me, I'd go LRT on the I-64 corridor, with a spur to the airport. Single tracked streetcar down Colley, turning onto Hampton around 21st street, all the way up past ODU and Norfolk INternational Terminals to the Naval Base. And streetcar down Granby Street past the zoo, Riverview corridor, past Granby High/ Wards corner, up to the Naval Base. Norfolk and Virginia Beach residents heading to the naval base would ride LR to Military Hwy, transfer to get up to the base. Anyone trying to get to ODU or Colley Ave. restaurants or the zoo would take the streetcar system.

[ronsmytheiii]

The problem is, it's no way in the world your fitting light rail tracks on Colley or Hampton. They are so densely populated and trafficked. The population density on Hampton Blvd. is like 15,000 sq. mile. I think it'd be possible to go through West Ghent/ Lambert's Point, but that would basically leave out all of the residential neighborhoods closer to downtown, but it would get to ODU in less than 5 minutes.

Of course it would work, why would HRT propose alternate routes that were not feasible? the streetcar system seems too complicated to me, just run a single track light rail as they are basically equivalent. I-64 would not lend to too many TOD or contribute to urbanism, it would simply replace cars as a means of supporting the suburban lifestyle. ODU and Ghent represent enormous urban populations that would seem to be extremely receptive to a light rail system (heck ODU tried to start is out with the Maglev!) Norfolk would be remiss not to support these areas,a s well as the large redevelopment potential of the ODU corridor near Hampton Boulevard as well as the land between International Terminbal Boulevard and the base gate, big places for development!

Edit: Better yet, why not have a single line going one way on Hampton Boulevard, and the other going the other way on Colley? Have them meet up when they converge near the bridge, as Hampton Boulevard becomes 6 lanes and have a nice large median.

Edited October 8, 2009 by ronsmytheiii

[varider]

Of course it would work, why would HRT propose alternate routes that were not feasible? the streetcar system seems too complicated to me, just run a single track light rail as they are basically equivalent. I-64 would not lend to too many TOD or contribute to urbanism, it would simply replace cars as a means of supporting the suburban lifestyle. ODU and Ghent represent enourmous urban populations that would seem to be extremely receptive to a light rail system (heck ODU tried to start is out with the Maglev!) Norfolk would be remiss not to support these areas,a s well as the large redevelopment potential of the ODU corridor near Hampton Boulevard as well as the land between International Terminbal Boulevard and the base gate, big places for development!

Wards Corner has urban redevelopment potential.

I'd love for light rail to run down Hampton Blvd.. Maybe it is possible. Who knows. HRT proposed the alternative, but it hasn't been studied for feasibility. Hampton Blvd. is used by trucks to get to NIT, people going through the Midtown, the military. It's just to heavily trafficked and I don't see them acquiring a continuous ROW for LRT. They would probably have to reduce Hampton to 2 lanes each way. Guess we will see in a few months when the begin the EIS for the naval base what alternative the city goes with. Maybe both can be done..

Now that we have a starter line, the sky is the limit.

[ronsmytheiii]

Hampton Blvd. is used by trucks to get to NIT, people going through the Midtown, the military.

Well with the new underpass being built on Hampton boulevard, the amount of trucks should be greatly decreased. That should lift enough need for light rail, plus the rail should also remove traffic:

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_news/lo...ampton_20091006

The idea is that the underpass will allow longer trains, which means less trucks on Hampton.

[varider]

Yeah, who knows. Time will tell..

I am still going to stick by my streetcar system. Just like Portland's streetcar. It's flexible and small enough to fit through densely urbanized neighborhoods such as Ghent. Since Norfolk is so dense it's going to be hard to build LR anywhere away from the current starter line. Virginia Beach will have no problem if it wants to build spurs throughout the city..

[varider]

Do any of you guys know if HRT or the City of Norfolk have created any partnerships with the big name corporations downtown? Like Norfolk Southern, Wells Fargo, SunTrust, Bank of America, BB&T, Etc.? Give the employees free or reduced rides on the rail if they ride it to work every day? I mean especially Wells Fargo since they could get off the train and be in the lobby in two seconds..

[Former Resident of HR]

Interesting points... but I think with some imagination, the LR could be sent up Colley and Hampton or something. Colley is wide enough to have the train go up on each side with regular vehicles in the middle. Or vice versa, train in the middle and cars on each side and a couple of stops where they can widen the space between the tracks. All on street parking would be eliminated but they could compensate with a couple garages.

Maybe instead, they could put a train in one direction going up Hampton and another on Colley in the opposite direction through Ghent and the Colley line could reconnect to the Hampton line on the ODU Campus.

What worries me is putting it all along the far west side of Ghent where that bike trail is. No benefit to Ghent in general by doing that and no prospects of development because there are nothing but huge houses there. Maybe they could just get a LR line through the midtown tunnel and make a totally separate streetcar line going up Colley to the base in its own dedicated right of way. Streetcars are cheaper to build and putting them down the median would mean they would not have to be in traffic.

Basically, Colley and Hampton can support it the tracks from the underpasses north thanks to medians and more available (read: seize-able) land. It is just getting the train from the Medical Center through Ghent that would be the big problem.

And about street cars... It would be very cool if VB would get the ball rolling and get street cars in the trolley lanes at the ocean front to meet up with LR. I rode Portland's streetcars which work well except for the fact that they roll along with traffic in the lanes at the same time. STUPID. They should be the only vehicles allowed in those lanes sort of like in VB, especially during rush hour.

Edited October 8, 2009 by JPN0731

[varider]

And about street cars... It would be very cool if VB would get the ball rolling and get street cars in the trolley lanes at the ocean front to meet up with LR. I rode Portland's streetcars which work well except for the fact that they roll along with traffic in the lanes at the same time. STUPID. They should be the only vehicles allowed in those lanes sort of like in VB, especially during rush hour.

That would be cool.. But it wouldn't function any different than the bus does. Plus during the off season, the tracks would just sit dormant. I could see BRT on the strip, though. With screens that tell you "minutes until next bus" and big system maps, and beach-themed artwork.

Why couldn't we tunnel light rail (like seattle's MAX) through Ghent and come back above ground around 38th street or so..?

[urbanfan]

Yeah, I think that Norfolk should build the extension to the Naval Base at the same time the Virginia Beach portion is being built. Next thing you know, 50,000 people ride a day. They actually should apply for funding at the same time.

The VB extension includes the Norfolk extension to the Naval Base. (via Mil. Highway) You can go to the VB extension website on HRT's site and they explain this. More than likely they will be implemented at the same time.

[jbhay]

Glad we're finally talking about the Naval Base extension again. I like the idea of it going down I-64 since no one is using the HOV lanes anyways, I hate that space going to waste, the HOV is a great idea, but completely ineffective. NoVA uses theirs way more. But then, like others have stated, Ghent is missing out huge, and it HAS to go to ghent for this to work. that area is thrawling with people who would ride it and it just needs it. ODU students, young professionals, the typical demographics who would use it. not so sure how i feel about the streetcar idea. hampton blvd. would be tough though. congestion would be insane and there is absolutely no other detour. portsmouth residents who go to Base through midtown may as well forget going to work until construction would be done. or buy personal helicopters and fly to work. eminent domain everywhere too. then there's the idea of elevated. that would obviously jack the cost up, increase the delivery time. tunneling is not an option i'm pretty sure in this area, i was interested in why we don't do that a few years ago too. i'd love to be working with whoever is planning this and designing this right now. that'd be really exciting to me. but yea, utilize the unused I-64 HOV lanes for sure.

oh and someone said something about wards corner redevelopment. by redevelopment, i hope you mean completely destroying every acre of property there and redesigning that area. from the first time as a kid there, to this day, it is one of the biggest eyesores in this region. i hate that place with a passion. terrible road design, unsafe, not pedestrian friendly at all, horrible parking lots and terrible architecture. it needs complete renovation, which means getting rid of it all and starting from scratch. too bad that will never happen.

btw, the new LR cars are sexy.

Edited October 8, 2009 by jbhay

[ronsmytheiii]

The VB extension includes the Norfolk extension to the Naval Base. (via Mil. Highway) You can go to the VB extension website on HRT's site and they explain this. More than likely they will be implemented at the same time.

There is no mention of Military Highway on the site:

http://www.hrtransit.org/vbtes/index.html

[urbanfan]

There is no mention of Military Highway on the site:

http://www.hrtransit.org/vbtes/index.html

I promise it's their. You have to look at the links and find the right document. I also remember a video a short time ago where HRT President verified the same thing.

[Telmnstr]

Looks like drainage is going in pretty quickly at the old Kirn site.

They put in the footings for the power poles a while ago I think.

[varider]

I'm not so sure how LR along an interstate works. I know I've seen MARTA in Atlanta running on highways, but I thought that was more of a commuter tool. I didn't know intracity transit ran along the interstate. I don't know how I feel about that one. I'd rather take two lanes from Hampton Blvd. and just build LRT. It would snarl automobile traffic, but build enough rail and we won't need cars.

The only problem is if you build light rail on the outside lanes and have cars in the inside (the most convenient way to enter/exit the train), it creates a dangerous situation when turning (lots of accidents occur, see Houston as an example)

[urbanlife]

I'm not so sure how LR along an interstate works. I know I've seen MARTA in Atlanta running on highways, but I thought that was more of a commuter tool. I didn't know intracity transit ran along the interstate. I don't know how I feel about that one. I'd rather take two lanes from Hampton Blvd. and just build LRT. It would snarl automobile traffic, but build enough rail and we won't need cars.

The only problem is if you build light rail on the outside lanes and have cars in the inside (the most convenient way to enter/exit the train), it creates a dangerous situation when turning (lots of accidents occur, see Houston as an example)

There is no car and train interaction when light rail uses the interstate for its route.

What happens, depending on the situation of where the stop is, the stop could be in the middle of the interstate with pedestrian bridges running to the stop. The stop could be on the side of the highway on an underpass that doesnt conflict with onramps. Or the train could simply have a fly over from the middle of the interstate to where ever the stop would be, then have another fly over back to the interstate.

Only local roads would ever have any interaction with a train, and the most usually happens in urban areas, while other areas outside of urban areas simply have to deal with a normal train crossing.

[mlsimons]

This may have been mentioned...but I keep hearing about the interstate route as a big possibility in order to easily provide a spur to the airport. I don't know if you guys/gals have noticed but there is already an abandoned Norfolk Southern line which goes from Tidewater drive area (where the current Lamberts point coal trains pass) all the way to the airport and a major industrial park in VA Beach and to the Little Creek base.

This line cuts through plenty of moderately dense neighborhoods, not to mention that once the line reaches Tidewater Drive it can merge with our current route to downtown about a half mile south (essentially providing a route from the airport directly to Harbor park/downtown. It would be almost perfectly straight.

I want to go into a little more detail with this if you guys can dig it.

Once the line hits the Tidewater Drive/Lamberts Point coal line intersection, the line can either merge with downtown, or imagine getting off at that stop and transferring to what I will refer to as "the loop."

The Loop would be a route that would follow the Lamberts point coal line cutting through Huntersville Park, over Church st and Monticello and would parallel 21st and Ghent, (here would be a very popular 21st retail district/ghent station. Eventually this loop would connect to the proposed Navel Base line either traveling down Hampton or Colley.

This loop would be much like how London's Underground is modeled. Relatively the same size around too.

If I can get even more specific...London's tube does have a "yellow line" which is dedicated to only running in the loop (in a circle). But on the same track you would have trains dedicated to getting from point crosstown (example: a Navel base bound train coming from VA beach. You would know as soon as the train approaches at "Rosemont" that you were on a Navel base (NOB) bound train, it wouldn't matter if you were only going to town center, you'd get on whichever train arrived first, but if you were going to Downtown/Harbor park you could get on and ride til Brambleton/Tidewater drive area where it splits, or you could wait for a Harbor Park/Downtown bound train. Or really you could get on either train, cause once the harbor park/downtown bound train gets to EVMS, it would still go up Hampton and terminate at the Navel Base (essentially taking the inside loop).

I wish I could just draw this all and post it. This plan seems like the best way to construct the minimal amount of infrastructure and provide the max amount of options. Please follow this up look on a map with tracks displayed. Also half of what I'm describing would ride on already established right of ways!

This option allows the possibility of express routes during rush hour, a "loop" routes for travel within the city, and a direct airport to CBD route, which is the preferred destination for many arriving in the airport (especially if they are transferring to commuter rail or High Speed Rail. This whole plan would truly be 21st century and geared towards long-term goals. Street cars and other various routes could be added later, but this would essentially be the backbone.

Edited October 9, 2009 by mlsimons

[urbanfan]

I'm not so sure how LR along an interstate works. I know I've seen MARTA in Atlanta running on highways, but I thought that was more of a commuter tool. I didn't know intracity transit ran along the interstate. I don't know how I feel about that one. I'd rather take two lanes from Hampton Blvd. and just build LRT. It would snarl automobile traffic, but build enough rail and we won't need cars.

The only problem is if you build light rail on the outside lanes and have cars in the inside (the most convenient way to enter/exit the train), it creates a dangerous situation when turning (lots of accidents occur, see Houston as an example)

The first extension will go up Military Highway, not I-64. How it gets over to the base no one knows yet but the first extension will be up Military Highway running past the airport to the base. The second extension (colley or hampton) will come later.

[urbanfan]

Link about extension to Naval base here.

"In the late 1990s, HRT

[lil-bear]

So the Military HWY station could become the axis point.

North to Janaf, the airport, Ward Corner, and the naval base.

South to GreenBriar, Battlefield BLVD corridor, and beyond....

[Former Resident of HR]

I have always thought that once light rail gets going, the HOV lanes would be the perfect place to put it. BUT... would the bridges be able to take the weight of the tracks, trains, etc?

Going up Military Hwy? That seems pretty weird. And everyone says "the base" but it is a HUGE place and all stops would have to be outside the gates for it to work.

[varider]

Future Ballentine Station:

Sorry for the poor view.. It's hard to take a picture going 70 down 264.

[varider]

For those of you interested in HRT and ridership..

http://www.hrtransit.org/pdf/presidentrepo...tember%2009.pdf

System ridership is up approximately 8.90% in August 2009 versus August 2008

Seasonal ridership is up 15.79% in 2009 versus 2008 (May, June, July, August)

And the #20, the bus route that parallels the Tide had the highest weekday average with 4,240 average weekday boardings.

But that route terminates on the corner of Princess Anne & Va Beach Blvd., so it's not a 100% comparison between the Tide. I'm sure that number (4,240) will be double or triple that on the train being that it's 3X as quick, goes through the CBD(where 42,000 people work), goes all the way to EVMS (where 20,000 people work), and isn't as crowded as a bus.

[varider]

Just curious,

do any of you guys plan on riding the Tide in your work commute? Is it even an option for you?