Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[jeffconn]

Just curious,

do any of you guys plan on riding the Tide in your work commute? Is it even an option for you?

It's an option for me to go to my TCC classes. I'd take bus 2 to the Medical Center station. From what i've read, 7 of the Tide stations will have bus stops. And i'm hoping that the Tide will use the normal pass system. It would be awesome to be able to ride the train, bus, and ferry on the same pass.

[mlsimons]

I was able to use it to get from Ghent to Leigh Hospital, but I've since moved to Richmond mon-thur for VCU's MURP Program. But when I reture I'll live on the line. Also a good friend of mine will use it, she lives 1 block from the ballantine station and works at MacArthur and YmCA downtown. She's real excited.

[Si7i]

I don

[brikkman]

I don

[varider]

Cool guys..

I'll be riding to Harbor Park when I see the tides, Medical Center when I see ODU (shuttle bus to the campus), Monticello Station when I see the Admirals, my mother works half a mile from the Newtown Station, if it went to the Oceanfront I'd probably be on it every day, but if they create a shuttle bus to go from Newtown Station to TC then I'll ride it there..

They need to start advertising more so people know where it's going and how much it costs, they need to show off the benefits to riding the train.. Gotta get ridership up to displease the naysayers. Shooting for 10,000/day

Edited October 12, 2009 by varider

[rusthebuss]

Cool guys..

I'll be riding to Harbor Park when I see the tides, Medical Center when I see ODU (shuttle bus to the campus), Monticello Station when I see the Admirals, my mother works half a mile from the Newtown Station, if it went to the Oceanfront I'd probably be on it every day, but if they create a shuttle bus to go from Newtown Station to TC then I'll ride it there..

They need to start advertising more so people know where it's going and how much it costs, they need to show off the benefits to riding the train.. Gotta get ridership up to displease the naysayers. Shooting for 10,000/day

I only see it doing around 5-6K . That said, it will be more once it actually goes to other destinations or leave from highly populated areas like Vabeach.

[varider]

I only see it doing around 5-6K . That said, it will be more once it actually goes to other destinations or leave from highly populated areas like Vabeach.

If it only did 5K you would see Norfolk on the cover of every anti- LR article in the United States.. Just like they are prasing cities like Charlotte and Phoenix for being over population estimates, they would be damning Norfolk's system..

5000 is only 2500 people riding daily, assuming everybody rides twice. If only 2500 people out of the 100,000+ that live and/ or work along the line are willing to take the train, Norfolk doesn't deserve it.. Im still sticking to my guestimate of 10,000. If you look at the EIS, the estimate of 6150 was very, very conservative and the station by station breakdown was unrealistic.

They are only expecting 400 boardings at Newtown. I'm sure that will be over 1000.

Charlotte was saying, "Maybe 5K-6K," in the months before their line opened. Little did they know, 15,000 would ride. It will catch on when people are travelling to work in the morning, in bumper to bumper traffic heading into Norfolk from the Beach and they see the train fly past them..

Also, Tides and Admirals games will add probably 2,000 boardings on any given night..

Edited October 12, 2009 by varider

[rusthebuss]

If it only did 5K you would see Norfolk on the cover of every anti- LR article in the United States.. Just like they are prasing cities like Charlotte and Phoenix for being over population estimates, they would be damning Norfolk's system..

5000 is only 2500 people riding daily, assuming everybody rides twice. If only 2500 people out of the 100,000+ that live and/ or work along the line are willing to take the train, Norfolk doesn't deserve it.. Im still sticking to my guestimate of 10,000. If you look at the EIS, the estimate of 6150 was very, very conservative and the station by station breakdown was unrealistic.

They are only expecting 400 boardings at Newtown. I'm sure that will be over 1000.

Charlotte was saying, "Maybe 5K-6K," in the months before their line opened. Little did they know, 15,000 would ride. It will catch on when people are travelling to work in the morning, in bumper to bumper traffic heading into Norfolk from the Beach and they see the train fly past them..

Also, Tides and Admirals games will add probably 2,000 boardings on any given night..

we have no way the cbd that Charlotte has...they actually have more people going downtown than that of Norfolks. I love your optimisitc views but until it goes into other cities it will not look as productive as it could be....You need a line to NOB, little creek and the Airport! Also we need links between the pennisula and the southside...that will happen in due time...A lot of this depends on if the leaders of this area go through with this joint task force and push one major project to the state...This is something we should have been doing for a long time. The third tunnel is critical for the connection of the LR from Norfolk and to Newport News....It is very important for the navy since the ship yard is right there and soon to be Navy housing. I think Sessoms is a big push beyond the typical Vabeach thinking as well!

[varider]

we have no way the cbd that Charlotte has...they actually have more people going downtown than that of Norfolks. I love your optimisitc views but until it goes into other cities it will not look as productive as it could be....You need a line to NOB, little creek and the Airport! Also we need links between the pennisula and the southside...that will happen in due time...A lot of this depends on if the leaders of this area go through with this joint task force and push one major project to the state...This is something we should have been doing for a long time. The third tunnel is critical for the connection of the LR from Norfolk and to Newport News....It is very important for the navy since the ship yard is right there and soon to be Navy housing. I think Sessoms is a big push beyond the typical Vabeach thinking as well!

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't have close to the amount of pepole heading into downtown as Charlotte. CLT has 70,000 employees in the vicinity of the CBD. We have 42,000 in the vicinity of the CBD, 20,000 at the medical center, 7,000 at a university.. So it's pretty similar numbers. Also a higher # of commuters in HR use mass transit than CLT.

With people heading to ODU, EVMS, Norfolk General, Downtown, Norfolk State, Sentara Leigh, Military Circle/ Military Hwy Corridor, Scope Arena, Chrysler Hall,Harbor Park etc.. We will exceed ridership estimates

[rusthebuss]

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't have close to the amount of pepole heading into downtown as Charlotte. CLT has 70,000 employees in the vicinity of the CBD. We have 42,000 in the vicinity of the CBD, 20,000 at the medical center, 7,000 at a university.. So it's pretty similar numbers. Also a higher # of commuters in HR use mass transit than CLT.

With people heading to ODU, EVMS, Norfolk General, Downtown, Norfolk State, Sentara Leigh, Military Circle/ Military Hwy Corridor, Scope Arena, Chrysler Hall,Harbor Park etc.. We will exceed ridership estimates

yes there is that many people there but where are these people coming from? Vabeach and Chesapeake mostly. So you have train that runs 5 or so miles from this area. You think people are going to park their cars just 5-8 miles from DT. I don't think those people will ride that until it comes close to their front door. You also have a larger group of urban minded in the Charlotte area

[varider]

yes there is that many people there but where are these people coming from? Vabeach and Chesapeake mostly. So you have train that runs 5 or so miles from this area. You think people are going to park their cars just 5-8 miles from DT. I don't think those people will ride that until it comes close to their front door. You also have a larger group of urban minded in the Charlotte area

Yeah, I exactly think that's what they are going to do.. Parking is like $100/month downtown. If they can ride a train for $50, have absolutely no traffic, listen to their iPod's on the way in, and not have to worry about that downtown rush hour traffic whe 50,000 people are trying to get out of dodge.. Plus you have the people to young to drive, to old to drive, can't afford to drive, that will still ride. And 7,000 people a night that go see the Tides. Avoid $5 parking and end-of game traffic. It's lots of reasons. Larger group of urban minded people in Charlotte? Don't believe that either. People in Charlotte that lived near the rail line said the train vibration was keeping them up at night, people who lived in the neighborhoods didn't want the rail, the same things we have gone through, happened there. It may appear different because we actully live here, but it's no difference.People are people.

[rusthebuss]

there is also another variable that is a very big one. That is the people that are traveling DT. Are they accepting of mass transit or are they more about their cars. I guarantee there is a difference between 42K in HR and the 70K in the Charlotte area

[varider]

^ But 13,000 live in CLT's CBD. I'm sure a great majority of them work there. Only 4,000 live in our CBD.

Do you thinkpeople in Charlotte were accepting of mass transit before they had LR? Do you think you could have got a CATS bus and seen people in suits and ties? I doubt it. It should eventually become the popular thing to do here..

I'll try and research the amount of people coming from South Charlotte into the CBD compared to the amount of commuters coming from West Norfolk and Virginia Beach into our CBD

Edited October 12, 2009 by varider

[HopHead]

I can tell you guys from living in Charlotte pre-Light Rail and now almost 2 years into having the service that there are several things I've noticed. To me these are mostly independent of the population of a given area.

1) Gas prices are a big influence on people's decision to use mass transit. Back when gas was around $4 a gallon, our numbers were through the roof. Our light rail line was hitting projected year 2020 numbers. Now with gas at a more managable price, more people are driving cars again to get downtown. Ridership is still well above projected numbers, but not what they were a year ago.

2) Parking prices may also dictate if someone uses light rail or not. Throw that in with $4 gas and people will be flocking to use light rail or bus. However, the companies that run the parking garages see this too. That $100/month parking garage won't stay that price for long. Expect prices for parking to drop.

3) Convenience is a huge deal to people that don't live in New York City or Boston. If factors 1 and 2 are a non-issue to people and having to walk and wait for the train is more effort than it's worth, they will still drive. It's just human nature.

4) Any time you have major events downtown, you'll see a spike in numbers. The light rail is always more jammed during nights/days when there is a Panthers, Bobcats, Checkers game or concert at the arena. There have been times though when I've walked home from a Panthers game b/c waiting to get on the light rail took too long since thousands of people are leaving at once. Happened yesterday as a matter of fact.

5) I have several friends that live in condos/apartments along the light rail line and none of them complain about the noise. The LR trains they build are pretty quiet for the most part.

6) There are some people that will forever b1tch and complain about taxes being raised to pay for mass transit. As a result they will refuse to use it, no matter how successful it is. Some people just won't change.

[varider]

I can tell you guys from living in Charlotte pre-Light Rail and now almost 2 years into having the service that there are several things I've noticed. To me these are mostly independent of the population of a given area.

1) Gas prices are a big influence on people's decision to use mass transit. Back when gas was around $4 a gallon, our numbers were through the roof. Our light rail line was hitting projected year 2020 numbers. Now with gas at a more managable price, more people are driving cars again to get downtown. Ridership is still well above projected numbers, but not what they were a year ago.

2) Parking prices may also dictate if someone uses light rail or not. Throw that in with $4 gas and people will be flocking to use light rail or bus. However, the companies that run the parking garages see this too. That $100/month parking garage won't stay that price for long. Expect prices for parking to drop.

3) Convenience is a huge deal to people that don't live in New York City or Boston. If factors 1 and 2 are a non-issue to people and having to walk and wait for the train is more effort than it's worth, they will still drive. It's just human nature.

4) Any time you have major events downtown, you'll see a spike in numbers. The light rail is always more jammed during nights/days when there is a Panthers, Bobcats, Checkers game or concert at the arena. There have been times though when I've walked home from a Panthers game b/c waiting to get on the light rail took too long since thousands of people are leaving at once. Happened yesterday as a matter of fact.

5) I have several friends that live in condos/apartments along the light rail line and none of them complain about the noise. The LR trains they build are pretty quiet for the most part.

6) There are some people that will forever b1tch and complain about taxes being raised to pay for mass transit. As a result they will refuse to use it, no matter how successful it is. Some people just won't change.

Cool.. Could I ask you one question, though?

WHen your system was under construction, didn't the majority of the populous believe it would be under ridership projections and only a few poor people would ride?

[rusthebuss]

I don't think its going to have under ridership like u think everyone thinks. I don't see the huge ridership like u are projecting. This line is going to used majority by those who already ride the bus...People around here are not just going to park and ride unless traffic downtown is so horrendous that they can't make it in reasonable time.

also depends if they are going to charge you for parking and riding

[varider]

I don't think its going to have under ridership like u think everyone thinks. I don't see the huge ridership like u are projecting. This line is going to used majority by those who already ride the bus...People around here are not just going to park and ride unless traffic downtown is so horrendous that they can't make it in reasonable time.

You said 5K-6K. The lowest number projection is 6,150/ riders per day. Since then it's been increased by HRT to 6,150- 12,000.

An HRT Go-30 day pass is $50. Downtown parking on Main is $85-$95 (I wouldn't be suprised if the City of Norfolk raised prices to increase ridership), traffic is horrible heading back to the Beach. You don't think that's enough to make one park and ride? IT works in every other region that has LR/ HR. Is Hampton Roads that different?

and NO, parking at a designated park and ride (Newtown, Military Hwy, Harbor Park, Ballentine) is absolutely FREE, and the most you would have to wait is 7 minutes, and that's if you pull up to the station and the train is departing..

Edited October 12, 2009 by varider

[HopHead]

Cool.. Could I ask you one question, though?

WHen your system was under construction, didn't the majority of the populous believe it would be under ridership projections and only a few poor people would ride?

There were naysayers about how many would actually ride it, but overall I think most people were enthused about LR. The biggest problem was that it was well over budget, so that never sits well with people when they are footing the bill...

[varider]

There were naysayers about how many would actually ride it, but overall I think most people were enthused about LR. The biggest problem was that it was well over budget, so that never sits well with people when they are footing the bill...

Oh, it's seems to be about 50-50 here.

And about parking, don't forget the people heading to the Medical Center, where they must pay to park.

& MaCArthur & Scope/ Chrysler Hall & Harbor Park & Norfolk State Football, lol.

[orulz]

One of the biggest factors influencing light rail ridership is the cost of parking. Even if the cost of riding the LR is not much less than that of parking, it still adds a big very tangible benefit to the LR. Around here in Raleigh, just about the only thing that gets people to ride the bus by choice in large numbers is if parking is expensive. Major hospitals, universities, and downtowns are the only significant transit destinations for choice riders.

As for Charlotte, remember that there was a 70-30 county wide vote in favor of keeping the transit sales tax right around the time that the LR opened. So there was a substantial majority who were excited about LR, even in spite of the cost overruns. The Blue Line is a well-designed line that was worth the money they paid regardless that it was over budget.

Anyway I can't imagine Norfolk's line being a flop... and it will be even better once it's extended into VB.

[varider]

I think the City of Norfolk should raise parking to about $100 downtown and EVMS should raise theirs to $60.

That would save people $50/ month, which equals $600/year.

[Henry_Ryto]

After a recent public meeting, I had a well-known local media personality come over to me and quietly ask if I thought Norfolk could meet the ridership projections. I said "Yes", based on having read the station-by-station breakdowns and being familiar with the associated bus routes.

My point: even many supporters are quietly nervous about ridership.

[varider]

After a recent public meeting, I had a well-known local media personality come over to me and quietly ask if I thought Norfolk could meet the ridership projections. I said "Yes", based on having read the station-by-station breakdowns and being familiar with the associated bus routes.

My point: even many supporters are quietly nervous about ridership.

I'm nervous,, but confident.If it were already extended to the Beach, i wouldn't really care. I just don't want the front page of the Pilot to read "Nobody Rides The Tide," next thing you know it will say, "Virginia Beach Will Not Extend Fail Rail.." LOL. But I doubt that will happen. They need to start advertising now, though. I liked that one commerical where the mermaid was like, "What'cha doin?," and the guy in a suit was like "Waiting for light rail."

[Telmnstr]

I work in a company in downtown Norfolk. In our office other than me, there is one other. He would ride it if it went to his house. He lives in Ghent and rides the bus (now bikes to work on some days, and has started telecommuting more). But it stops way short of his neighborhood.

In my case, the only time I'd ride it that I know of is if it went to the oceanfront, so I could visit Flipper McCoys. In the winter it's no issue because there are no problems parking.

Perhaps students from the medical centers will use it to expand out their housing. But I think the greedy older folks will try to price the property near the line so high that it will negate the benefits.

Also, most of the good jobs provide the parking passes. They won't cover a bus pass I don't think. Parking lot fees is not something that all employees see. Also, if light rail took away too much, then you'll have the city whining about lack of income. On this note, with the high cost of parking in downtown, it would make sense to me to locate many businesses AWAY from it. In the past you figure our company was dropping $2550 a month on parking, in addition to high rent. It's not something that really helps business. It's nice for some employees, of course. But it makes Chesapeake and Virginia Beach attractive.

So be careful about trying to force solutions, that can backfire.

Last note. Hit the Still in PTown on Sat with friends and some of their friends. One moved to DC after college, and was talking about the experience. He said he never really goes for the metro. Idling in at 30 takes the same time as parking and walking for miles to the metro station to take the train to then try to get where you want to go. He said he just drives and pays to park.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Telmnstr

[varider]

I'm sure the big jobs like Norfolk Southern, BoA, SunTrust, etc. cover the parking, but what about the thousands of people that work at MacArthur, small businesses, tourist attractions, TCC, etc. I'm sure they still must pay.

I have a cousin who lives in Arlington and he takes Metro into the district every day. So people are different.