Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[Telmnstr]

I don't think it's a pile driver, it appears to spin and cut into the ground. They use it for the places where the power poles are likely to go.

As of 1 second ago, it's still sitting out there (I work right next to it).

Been afraid it will cut the Cox fiber lines again. Heh.

[virginia pe]

I agree, the city should start planning for a major redevelopment of standalone parking decks on Plume Street. I think part of Downtown 2020 should focus on tearing down the brown-ish 4 floor parking deck with the massive footprint, the taller, white parkng deck, and the postal servce building...

The taller, white parking deck is one of the few parking garages in downtown that is not owned by the City of Norfolk. It is owned by Bank of America. The city will not have much say in what happens to that deck.

[ronsmytheiii]

Another fashionable Light rail flogging story:

http://www.wvec.com/news/local/You-Paid-For-It-Light-Rail-Cars-Security-85821327.html

of course they fail to mention that the maintenance depot was delayed thanks to NSU, its more fun to blame HRT.

[vdogg]

Another fashionable Light rail flogging story:

http://www.wvec.com/...y-85821327.html

of course they fail to mention that the maintenance depot was delayed thanks to NSU, its more fun to blame HRT.

Sigh......

[varider]

Sigh......

The continous bashing of the LRT via stories like this, seemingly every day, will make it impossible for VB to move forward.

Why can't they do some stories about the benefits of LR? The complete HR Transit Implementation Plan thingy? Show the success in cities such as Charlotte and Portland? Dallas? All they want to talk about is the negative.

[rusthebuss]

we don't have business centers those cities you named...I think we need to concentrate on building on city centers with higher paying jobs....we will always have nimbys.....the problem is that we have a very low median income and its no longer cheap to live or operate in this region anymore....that use to be what the cities used to try and attract businesses...cheap labor...until we change these things, we will always have a large nimby crowd

Edited March 2, 2010 by rusthebuss

[brikkman]

The continous bashing of the LRT via stories like this, seemingly every day, will make it impossible for VB to move forward.

Why can't they do some stories about the benefits of LR? The complete HR Transit Implementation Plan thingy? Show the success in cities such as Charlotte and Portland? Dallas? All they want to talk about is the negative.

Well, they have not introduced a masterplan and there has not been in perceived benefit of having LRT in HR at the moment. In addition to that, they have not made any head way regarding development based around LRT, just the tracks. There is no talk of Nordstrom giving up some space for store fronts, no building around LRT that makes it a community, nothing but new track. Waterside is dying without any immediate fix or turnround on the horizon. Granby street is loosing it spark, development east has/will/been stalled and the city is still looking to raise taxes………Lots of things to consider that are not directly LRT but should/would provide veil.

I personally do not/did not think the first leg of LRT will be successful in terms of ridership, however, I was hopeful that it would create an atmosphere of community, city, urban uniqueness that other metros have, hoping that would sprawl growth and development. We can blame it on the economy all we want, but in all this mass recession, no one has lowered rents, no one has lowered leases, it is just less people obtaining them.

[ronsmytheiii]

Well, they have not introduced a masterplan and there has not been in perceived benefit of having LRT in HR at the moment. In addition to that, they have not made any head way regarding development based around LRT, just the tracks. There is no talk of Nordstrom giving up some space for store fronts, no building around LRT that makes it a community, nothing but new track. Waterside is dying without any immediate fix or turnround on the horizon. Granby street is loosing it spark, development east has/will/been stalled and the city is still looking to raise taxes………Lots of things to consider that are not directly LRT but should/would provide veil.

I personally do not/did not think the first leg of LRT will be successful in terms of ridership, however, I was hopeful that it would create an atmosphere of community, city, urban uniqueness that other metros have, hoping that would sprawl growth and development. We can blame it on the economy all we want, but in all this mass recession, no one has lowered rents, no one has lowered leases, it is just less people obtaining them.

I will have to disagree with you. We would not have had the Belmont, the new Ramada Inn, or Wells Fargo without LRT. Downtown is under a squeeze right now due to construction, once complete there will be a resurgence. The low ridership expected would be extremely hard not to beat, we only have 9 cars, I bet one Tides game or Admirals game would push the system to capacity. The recession and construction are the main reasons for the lack of development, look at Chicago and New York, the only projects going forward are either in building now or already had financing. Just have some patience people!

[Telmnstr]

I thought those three properties started before LRT?

I'm actually surprised that there are as many people in the New Belmont as there are. Maybe the Navy upped the housing allowance to $1600/month or something.

I don't think light rail will be successful, but it will be cute I guess. I've been to other cities with it and the people there just shrug. People from other cities that got it have commented how crime jumped in their areas (near the trains) and how ridership of the intended middle class audience never really came.

We're a nation of cars. If you want New York City, you'll have to go there. Turning Hampton Roads into New York City isn't going to work. And the idea that cars will somehow have to cease to exist because of oil shortage is silly, people will just switch power sources. The battery technology has gotten much better, it's just too expensive to use in electric cars right now. But Plasma televisions used to cost $9000 for the entry model.

[brikkman]

I will have to disagree with you. We would not have had the Belmont, the new Ramada Inn, or Wells Fargo without LRT. Downtown is under a squeeze right now due to construction, once complete there will be a resurgence. The low ridership expected would be extremely hard not to beat, we only have 9 cars, I bet one Tides game or Admirals game would push the system to capacity. The recession and construction are the main reasons for the lack of development, look at Chicago and New York, the only projects going forward are either in building now or already had financing. Just have some patience people!

Yeah, going to have to agree with tel on this one, who is to say that was because of LRT, remember Belmont was a scraper at first that was converted to what it is now. Its not to say the design didn't change because of it, but all signs pointn to them converting a plot of land regardless of LRT. Wellsfargo is not an accurate representation of LRT either, nor is Residence INN. But I could be wrong, and city councils little blurb regarding that has no proof behind it. Your right about the tides and admiral games, I'm hopeful of that, but remember, that's seasonal.....And far as development goes, your right, but I"m referring to what is already here. We still have a slew of vacanies in DT, used space, and people moving out.

[urbanfan]

Yeah, going to have to agree with tel on this one, who is to say that was because of LRT, remember Belmont was a scraper at first that was converted to what it is now. Its not to say the design didn't change because of it, but all signs pointn to them converting a plot of land regardless of LRT. Wellsfargo is not an accurate representation of LRT either, nor is Residence INN. But I could be wrong, and city councils little blurb regarding that has no proof behind it. Your right about the tides and admiral games, I'm hopeful of that, but remember, that's seasonal.....And far as development goes, your right, but I"m referring to what is already here. We still have a slew of vacanies in DT, used space, and people moving out.

Belmont was a two- seven story building first, then went to skyscraper and then back to the form it now occupies. We can say it was attributed to light rail because the developer himself said it was the main contributing factor for why he was building it. Reading through previous posts and the news links (if still valid) will bear this out. Furthermore, the Residence Inn had the same reason for being located where it is. Wells Fargo also stated the proximity of light rail in part of its reasoning to build. There has definitely been plenty with regard to light rail.

[urbanlife]

I thought those three properties started before LRT?

I'm actually surprised that there are as many people in the New Belmont as there are. Maybe the Navy upped the housing allowance to $1600/month or something.

I don't think light rail will be successful, but it will be cute I guess. I've been to other cities with it and the people there just shrug. People from other cities that got it have commented how crime jumped in their areas (near the trains) and how ridership of the intended middle class audience never really came.

We're a nation of cars. If you want New York City, you'll have to go there. Turning Hampton Roads into New York City isn't going to work. And the idea that cars will somehow have to cease to exist because of oil shortage is silly, people will just switch power sources. The battery technology has gotten much better, it's just too expensive to use in electric cars right now. But Plasma televisions used to cost $9000 for the entry model.

I have to question this statement, I am curious which systems you are talking about because I am assuming you are not making a general statement about light rail as a whole. I know of a number of systems that have been extremely successful and are currently growing. I also know of cities that have seen positive growth due to light rail investments.

Also the crime jumps usually make me laugh because usually when people say that is what they are seeing, what it means is that is the main thing their nearsighted news networks are willing to talk about. There was a recent story in Seattle that someone was shot at a train station, but when you realize the the facts of the story, the one that shot the person was driving, therefore the criminal was not relying on rail to provide him transportation to commit his crime, which means that he was probably commuting via car to commit crimes long before there was a train station in Seattle to shoot someone. Crime is crime, where it happens usually has little to do with where it happened. Obviously there are methods that a city can do to insure better protection and security.

We are never going to see any city in this country become another New York City because there will only be one in this country, but that doesnt mean Hampton Roads cant become another Denver, Charlotte, Seattle, Phoenix, San Diego, Dallas, Baltimore, and so on.

[varider]

There's no doubt that the Belmont, Residence Inn, and Wells Fargo apartments/retail were constructed because of the rail. && There's no doubt that TOD will explode all around the region as our system expands. Why would rail transit be successful everywhere in the world but HR?

[Telmnstr]

I have to question this statement, I am curious which systems you are talking about because I am assuming you are not making a general statement about light rail as a whole. I know of a number of systems that have been extremely successful and are currently growing. I also know of cities that have seen positive growth due to light rail investments.

Also the crime jumps usually make me laugh because usually when people say that is what they are seeing, what it means is that is the main thing their nearsighted news networks are willing to talk about. There was a recent story in Seattle that someone was shot at a train station, but when you realize the the facts of the story, the one that shot the person was driving, therefore the criminal was not relying on rail to provide him transportation to commit his crime, which means that he was probably commuting via car to commit crimes long before there was a train station in Seattle to shoot someone. Crime is crime, where it happens usually has little to do with where it happened. Obviously there are methods that a city can do to insure better protection and security.

We are never going to see any city in this country become another New York City because there will only be one in this country, but that doesnt mean Hampton Roads cant become another Denver, Charlotte, Seattle, Phoenix, San Diego, Dallas, Baltimore, and so on.

It was a comment on the Pilot, so perhaps it was false or falsified, I forget which city it was. They just said that the street grade crossing create a ton of traffic themselves, and that crime in the neighborhoods had gone up near the stations, and that ridership wasn't as expected.

Baltimorgue... you didn't really go there, did you?

I dunno, there is nothing we can do to stop the city govt from spending our tax money to benefit their friends.

This isn't a mass transit town, and I was perfectly happy with downtown Norfolk in 2006. I don't care about the cheap looking new buildings. New Belmont looks cheap. The Ramada Inn looks cheap. And screw these companies trying to market a prepackaged lifestyle.

Oh yea, whens the next meet-up. I speak my mind, but am willing to hang. You all are anti-social or something. Which is proper for Hampton Roads people, but you can break the trend. I believe in you.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Telmnstr

[vdogg]

Waterside is dying without any immediate fix or turnround on the horizon.

Waterside is dying because the city wants it to die. They drove all the tax paying businesses out of there. As for your other point, the lack of development can be tied directly to the poor economy. If the economy hadn't fallen off a cliff, lack of development wouldn't even be an issue. LRT is simply another tool in our transit arsenal, it cannot work miracles.

[urbanlife]

It was a comment on the Pilot, so perhaps it was false or falsified, I forget which city it was. They just said that the street grade crossing create a ton of traffic themselves, and that crime in the neighborhoods had gone up near the stations, and that ridership wasn't as expected.

Baltimorgue... you didn't really go there, did you?

I dunno, there is nothing we can do to stop the city govt from spending our tax money to benefit their friends.

This isn't a mass transit town, and I was perfectly happy with downtown Norfolk in 2006. I don't care about the cheap looking new buildings. New Belmont looks cheap. The Ramada Inn looks cheap. And screw these companies trying to market a prepackaged lifestyle.

Oh yea, whens the next meet-up. I speak my mind, but am willing to hang. You all are anti-social or something. Which is proper for Hampton Roads people, but you can break the trend. I believe in you.

That doesnt stop Phoenix from having a successful LRT system.

What new buildings look like has nothing to do with transit or lack of transit, that is purely a design issue...if new buildings look bad, then the city needs a better design review in place to prevent cheap looking buildings from being built. Also, what companies are trying to sell a prepackaged lifestyle in Norfolk? And what kind of lifestyle are they trying to sell? That statement is just an ambiguous talking point. One could say the same thing about the massive suburban developments that have happened in that region. I grew up in Ocean Lakes, that area was definitely a prepackaged lifestyle of a neighborhood.

Oh and I did mention Baltimore, calling it a bad name is just a personal opinion...especially seeing they do have pro teams and a waterfront region that works, as well as an actual rail system already...not really something to pick on coming from Hampton Roads. (I am not knocking my hometown, just pointing out actual facts between the two regions.) And yes, Baltimore does have its own problems and high crime to deal with, but so does many parts of Hampton Roads.

Finally, if it was an article from the Pilot, then I would venture to say that they had to do some serious hunting through positive news to find the handful of negative news just to make their point. The Pilot has gone downhill, like many papers, over the past 10-15 years....mostly negative focused articles are the ones that get the most attention because most people that are buying newspapers are older, whiter, conservative, pro republican people. (sure that is more of a stereotype, but I would venture that it is a common type of person reading printed newspapers.)

[ronsmytheiii]

After traveling around in Northern Virginia, I can tell you why we need mass transit. Roads can only get so big, and then the system cannot get any bigger. Even with some of the largest lanes in the state, the roads are still a mess. I dont care if I have a hybrid car that runs forever, at that point I wanted to hop on the Metro (was going to Dulles so really did not have much choice) Same thing will happen to Norfolk, if you think rush hour is bad now you have not seen anything yet.

[varider]

After traveling around in Northern Virginia, I can tell you why we need mass transit. Roads can only get so big, and then the system cannot get any bigger. Even with some of the largest lanes in the state, the roads are still a mess. I dont care if I have a hybrid car that runs forever, at that point I wanted to hop on the Metro (was going to Dulles so really did not have much choice) Same thing will happen to Norfolk, if you think rush hour is bad now you have not seen anything yet.

Imagine how much congestion will be on the Hampton Roads Beltway system after our next population boom.. The population is supposed to be near 2.1M by 2026. With a lack of good transit service which will bring about urbanization and relieve the highways of traffic congestion, HR's economy will not be able to grow.

Drive 264 from DT to the Oceanfront during peak hour on a Friday and tell me taht Hampton Roads doesn't NEED rail transit.

And I hate that "this is Hampton Roads not New York City" argument. WTF. The current attitude is suburbia because the majority of the metro is made up of roads and parking lots. I really, honestly believe that all of you will be shocked when the Tide blows past ridership projections and you see trains packed to capacity at rush hour with 10-15 people getting on and off at each station.

Edited March 5, 2010 by varider

[varider]

“The system opened March 27, 1976, with 4.6miles (7kilometers) available on the Red Line with five stations from Rhode Island Avenue to Farragut North, all in the District of Columbia.” (source). This is even shorter than the 7 miles that The Tide will be (and Metro started with just 5 stations compared to The Tide’s 11). You have to start somewhere, and this is exactly what Norfolk is doing: Starting.

With that in mind: the biggest complaint I heard was “why doesn’t it go to…” (funny, the Base and ODU were the biggest requests, knowing full well that’s going to be the next study)

Metrorail started as a 4.6 mile starter line in the District of Columbia 34 years ago. Now it's a 106 miles and goes through two states and the District. That gives me hope that in 35 years, Hampton Roads will have a rail system at lease 80 miles long, connecting every urban center of the region. In 35 years, I'll be 50 years old, though.

[varider]

http://hamptonroads....lan-gains-speed

Momentum is building for running conventional passenger trains between Norfolk and Richmond as an interim step to getting high-speed rail.

The budget approved by the General Assembly last week waives a 30 percent match on state Rail Enhancement Funds, clearing a financial hurdle that will allow construction to begin later this year and for trains to run within three years

"I would describe this as a watershed event," said Barry Bishop, executive vice president of Greater Norfolk Corp., which has been lobbying for higher-speed trains to Hampton Roads.

"It gets us in the game," he said. "This is a beginning, not an end. It's far more likely we'll get federal funding with some rail service in place. High-speed service will come incrementally."

It would be the first passenger rail service from Norfolk since 1977. Amtrak runs two passenger trains daily from Newport News.

Meanwhile, the state is still pursuing high-speed rail service both between Washington and Richmond and between Richmond and Hampton Roads, which is more expensive and depends on federal funding.

This sounds great.

Edited March 21, 2010 by varider

[varider]

http://beyonddc.com/log/?p=1473

Norfolk’s 7.4 mile light rail starter line, The Tide, is currently under construction and due to open in 2011, and already Virginia Beach is looking to extend it. At the same time the Commonwealth of Virginia is studying increased passenger rail from Richmond to Hampton Roads, and just today President Obama awarded federal funds for high speed rail improvements south from DC.

With increased passenger rail such a hot topic in Tidewater Virginia, it seems a good time to consider what the future of rail transit there might look like. Assuming light rail is a success, as it is virtually everywhere it’s built, where might it go next? That Virginia Beach extension is the obvious next direction, but it’s far from the only option.

BeyondDC has extremely limited personal experience in Hampton Roads, but with satellite imagery from Google Maps available to anyone with a computer, it’s easy enough to get a pretty good sense of land use and density. Using that information it’s possible to make reasonably accurate assumptions about where transit might work best. Of course Google Maps is no substitute for real on-the-ground experience, but at the very least it’s enough to start a discussion. So here goes.

[urbanlife]

The red line loop through chesapeake and portsmouth make no sense, if anything that would be two separate lines, one to portsmouth and one to chesapeake. It would be much more efficient that way.

[Case]

The red line loop through chesapeake and portsmouth make no sense, if anything that would be two separate lines, one to portsmouth and one to chesapeake. It would be much more efficient that way.

Not as efficient but doable. Look at the Beyond DC website for the map overlay image. It makes more sense when viewed there.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Case

[varider]

Do you all think that we will live to see a rail system like this ?

[skylinefan]

Do you all think that we will live to see a rail system like this ?

Did we ever think we would see the day that a light rail system would be under construction in Norfolk in our lifetime? Anything is possible if the city and region is unified and is ready to work for such a system.