Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[urbanlife]

Not as efficient but doable. Look at the Beyond DC website for the map overlay image. It makes more sense when viewed there.

Well no one would ride the rail from downtown Portsmouth to downtown Norfolk and I am not sure I would agree that there are enough people commuting from Chesapeake to Portsmouth. I think it would make more sense to focus on an urban bond between Portsmouth and Norfolk.

It would make more sense to run a line out towards Victory Center and have it split there between two lines, one that continues out towards Bower Hill and the other runs up to the Churchland area (which would be a good location for another town center like development to happen at the end of that route.

The Chesapeake line should do what this map is suggesting, there should be a new Main St Bridge built for LRT next to Harbor Park that connects to Main St on the south side of the river, then have a stop at Main and Berkeley. Then have the train turn onto Liberty and run down towards Seaboard (which this is the location that should be treated as Chesapeake's downtown if someone in Chesapeake was willing to pull their head out of their ass and look at the big picture for their city.) Then have it connect up with Atlantic Ave/Battlefield Ave and run down that road with stops placed at key locations, Edmonds Corner, Volvo Parkway, and end at Gainsborough Square.

We should be honest with ourselves, who here seriously thinks Chesapeake will ever move in an urban direction? There only hope for that would be in the South Norfolk area that should of been their downtown from the beginning when the town of South Norfolk merged with Norfolk County.

Those lines would make much more sense and function much better for the region that how the current red line is drawn. Also I am not sure the route running the red line to the airport would work either, but if it did, I would say that line should split at 26th and Church so that one line goes to the airport and another line goes to Midtown and all the way to Oceanview. Where this split happens would be a key point for an urban TOD district, there looks to be several empty blocks here on Google Maps and it would be an easy area to redevelop, especially if it was a transit hub for the city. Wards Corner is another great location for a dense urban TOD district, as well as where the line would end at Granby and Oceanview.

[757hokie]

We should be honest with ourselves, who here seriously thinks Chesapeake will ever move in an urban direction? There only hope for that would be in the South Norfolk area that should of been their downtown from the beginning when the town of South Norfolk merged with Norfolk County.

I hate to bring Chesapeake info to this thread, but since you went there:

http://www.cityofche...illage-dg.shtml

Chesapeake has established design guidelines for creating a small-town urban feel in what is the core of chesapeake. Considering the time it'll take for such guidelines to really start to show an effect, LR to chesapeake might actually be a viable solution, so I'm always perplexed as to why these projections for light rail overlook the municipal center, and the already adopted vision for the district.

[atp4984]

That map is a disaster. I've been working on a number of extension alternatives for my Senior Planning Project. Here are the extensions I recommend:

- Va Beach Extension along NS R-O-W

- North from 264 at Military Hwy to Robin Hood Rd. Small two-way single track segment to airport terminal. Follow I-64 along West/South easement to Tidewater Dr. Follow NS R-O-W to Ward's Corner then to the Base.

- North from SPQ along Church Street. Fork at Granby St. Follow NS R-O-W to ODU/Powhatan Ave through Ghent. Follow Granby north in median to Ward's Corner.

- Improvements to HRT no. 3 and 8.

- Park-and-Rides at I-64 and Granby/Tidewater/Chesapeake/Robin Hood Rd/Military Circle.

There are some pretty epic regional opportunities at the intersection of Military Hwy and Va Beach Blvd, roughly 700 acres of redevelopment possibilities centered around transit and walkability. BTW, an extension along Hampton Blvd is absolutely impossible, and following NS R-O-W's for their entirety through the city ignores some opportunities to strengthen some areas through TOD. Church St/Granby St is the way to go for the west side of Norfolk.

Ignore the High Speed Rail going to Military Circle, that's for another discussion another day.

Edited March 29, 2010 by atp4984

[varider]

That map is a disaster. I've been working on a number of extension alternatives for my Senior Planning Project. Here are the extensions I recommend:

- Va Beach Extension along NS R-O-W

- North from 264 at Military Hwy to Robin Hood Rd. Small two-way single track segment to airport terminal. Follow I-64 along West/South easement to Tidewater Dr. Follow NS R-O-W to Ward's Corner then to the Base.

- North from SPQ along Church Street. Fork at Granby St. Follow NS R-O-W to ODU/Powhatan Ave through Ghent. Follow Granby north in median to Ward's Corner.

- Improvements to HRT no. 3 and 8.

- Park-and-Rides at I-64 and Granby/Tidewater/Chesapeake/Robin Hood Rd/Military Circle.

There are some pretty epic regional opportunities at the intersection of Military Hwy and Va Beach Blvd, roughly 700 acres of redevelopment possibilities centered around transit and walkability. BTW, an extension along Hampton Blvd is absolutely impossible, and following NS R-O-W's for their entirety through the city ignores some opportunities to strengthen some areas through TOD. Church St/Granby St is the way to go for the west side of Norfolk.

&& about Chesapeake.... NO GO ON LRT. I'd much rather see CPK build up there transit service before attempting a major railway. Until CPK can get busses to run past 7pm,LRT is a no go.

Ignore the High Speed Rail going to Military Circle, that's for another discussion another day.

That sounds great. I love that line up Church with the fork at Granby line. This plan would do wonders for Norfolk City. And I agree that Miltary Circle coud become a HUGE TOD. Like seriously, Transit Oriented Developent alone could turn Norfolk into a complely urbanized city in 30+ years. Bascially everywhere there is a station will eventually become a mini-activity center. We are already seeing the planning going into this (New Town plan). I can't wait. GO TRANSIT and GO NORFOLK. Also I'd really like to see some sort of transit to Ocean View.. Like a streetcar. I always get sad when I see the OV rail station from back inthe day!

&& I feel like when the LRT opens up, Norfolk needs to come out in public and announce the complete vision for the public transit system. Let the public know that this is just the beginning. Maybe even put VISION 2025 signs up at rail stations and bus transfer centers.

Edited March 29, 2010 by varider

[atp4984]

Here's the regional concept. It assumes a few things:

- Some economic catalyst (i.e. real high speed rail between DC, Richmond, and Norfolk)

- VB urbanizing auto-oriented commercial property along the main light-rail line and Va Beach Blvd

- Norfolk State getting it together and growing significantly.

-Increased demand/density in the Industrial Park due to the Craney Island Port Expansion.

One urban corridor, versus two competing urban cores is the only way Hampton Roads will become a world-class region.

The rest of my study shows light rail alignments and station configurations, Military Circle redevelopment, and the feasibility of a high speed rail line and terminal where Military Circle is now. I'm aware that the higher-speed rail station is planned for Harbor Park, but I believe by the time High Speed rail in Hampton Roads becomes a reality, this would be more beneficial, both to Norfolk and Hampton Roads in general.

[varider]

So basically a continuous urban corridor from DT to TC with transit as the backbone? That'd be awesome and not even out of the realm of possibility.

[ronsmytheiii]

Monday's rain could impact the start of work at the intersection of Bank Street and Plume Street, which was due to close for about 45 days around March 31. About the same time, the intersection of Granby Street and Charlotte Street will close for approximately 90 days.

By the end of this week, paving will be complete at the intersection of Charlotte Street and Monticello Avenue.

http://www.wvec.com/news/local/adsf-89437417.html

[ronsmytheiii]

Bad News everyone!*

Norfolk's light rail is ahead of schedule and under its $338 million price tag. Philip Shucet, the head of Hampton Roads Transit, briefed Norfolk City Council on the project Tuesday.

He told councilmembers that, as of today, the Tide is about a month ahead of schedule.

Notice that there is not word one on The Pilot.

http://www.wvec.com/...f-89437417.html

* call back to the Professor from Futurama

Edited March 30, 2010 by ronsmytheiii

[varider]

Is there another metro in the nation that we can look at that has rail transit with multiple activity centers WITHOUT a main center (downtown)? I know that MetroRail goes to multiple activity centers, but everyone knows the center of the transit system and region is downtown DC . The other areas sprouted up around major rail stations.. I know MTA goes everywhere, but the center is clearly Manhattan. Charlotte will always be able to look to their downtown as the center of the transit system. I'm worried about Hampton Roads set-up and arrangement/geography. We don't have a major downtown with a lot of people commuting from the suburbs into the city. Our largest activity center is the Naval Station. I just don't know how rail is going to work with our poly-centric setup unless downtown Norfolk becomes a stronger urban core. Without a strong core, our transit system will most likely fail.

[vdogg]

Bad News everyone!*

Notice that there is not word one on The Pilot.

http://www.wvec.com/...f-89437417.html

* call back to the Professor from Futurama

This will be buried on page 12...

[atp4984]

Is there another metro in the nation that we can look at that has rail transit with multiple activity centers WITHOUT a main center (downtown)? I know that MetroRail goes to multiple activity centers, but everyone knows the center of the transit system and region is downtown DC . The other areas sprouted up around major rail stations.. I know MTA goes everywhere, but the center is clearly Manhattan. Charlotte will always be able to look to their downtown as the center of the transit system. I'm worried about Hampton Roads set-up and arrangement/geography. We don't have a major downtown with a lot of people commuting from the suburbs into the city. Our largest activity center is the Naval Station. I just don't know how rail is going to work with our poly-centric setup unless downtown Norfolk becomes a stronger urban core. Without a strong core, our transit system will most likely fail.

Hampton Roads is fairly similar to the Denver Metro area. LoDo (Downtown Denver) is about twice as big and tall as downtown Norfolk, and there are several other nodes around it - The Denver Tech Center to the south, Boulder to the Northwest, etc. They are planning to/already have connected most of these nodes with transit in one form or another, and it has decent ridership. Hampton Roads after one more economic boom will probably be the size that the Denver area is today.

[varider]

Norfolk might not ever have a strong core like Denver

Edited March 31, 2010 by varider

[atp4984]

Norfolk might not ever have a strong core like Denver

Don't let the tall buildings fool you, it's not that big. I stumble around it all every weekend. Give it fifteen more years. With SPQ and Fort Norfolk, downtown Norfolk will have a lot going for it.

[varider]

Don't let the tall buildings fool you, it's not that big. I stumble around it all every weekend. Give it fifteen more years. With SPQ and Fort Norfolk, downtown Norfolk will have a lot going for it.

It may not be big to you, but compared to Norfolk.. it's enormous.

Not only does it look much, much, much biggger...

23M Sq. Feet of office space compared to Norfolk's 4M? Nearly 6X as much.

34 buildings 300+ compared to Norfolk's 2?

130,000 workers compared to Norfolk's 30,000? 4.5X as many.

10,000+ residents compared to Norfolk's 3,800. 2.7X as much.

Denver is a much more centralized region than Norfolk is and I don't think we can compre the two when looking at rail transit. It's clear than Downtown Denver is the central, urban core of it's region. Norfolk.. not so much. I don't see Norfolk building but maybe, at the most 5 office buildings in the next 15 years. && at the most, downtown residency will pass 7,500. This will still make Denver a much larger city than Norfolk and a better home base for rail transit to prosper.

[VBIllini13]

Is there another metro in the nation that we can look at that has rail transit with multiple activity centers WITHOUT a main center (downtown)? I know that MetroRail goes to multiple activity centers, but everyone knows the center of the transit system and region is downtown DC . The other areas sprouted up around major rail stations.. I know MTA goes everywhere, but the center is clearly Manhattan. Charlotte will always be able to look to their downtown as the center of the transit system. I'm worried about Hampton Roads set-up and arrangement/geography. We don't have a major downtown with a lot of people commuting from the suburbs into the city. Our largest activity center is the Naval Station. I just don't know how rail is going to work with our poly-centric setup unless downtown Norfolk becomes a stronger urban core. Without a strong core, our transit system will most likely fail.

There are multinucleated polycentric metropolitan areas in the US if that's what you're asking. Some notable examples are Minneapolis-St. Paul, Akron-Canton, Albany-Schnectady, Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, Alanton-Bethlehem, Scranton-Wilkes-Barre, and my personal favorite: Fayetteville-Springdale-Rogers-Bentonville. Going smaller, there's also Gulfport-Biloxi and Champaign-Urbana (GO ILLINI!). While, just about all of these metros have a twin city relationship, they still disperse population and companies between each other.

Your question was regarding rail transit and these metros. Minneapolis-St. Paul I know has rail transit, and Raleigh-Durham conducted a study on it but decided it wasn't feasible or something like that. Fayetteville, AR will probably get some form of public rail transit in the near future because of its exponential growth, booming economy, and location. Champaign may also eventually get transit because of the University of Illinois. Many planning grad students here conduct studies and draw up plans for better transportation around the area, and because the campus, downtown Champaign, and downtown Urbana are so close to each other, rail would have an almost straight path connecting the 3 nodes.

[varider]

Minneapolis only has one light rail line that opened a couple years ago. I am impressed with the fact that Minn. transit system carries 250,000 trips/day..Hampton Roads Transit only carries 50,000....

[varider]

Quote from fdm505

work nearby a new Tide light rail station in Norfolk and I reside in VA Beach. The workers appear to be doing a great job on this project in Norfolk. Kudos to those men actually building it. Personally, I'm opposed to government building un-needed light rail. The working taxpayers money is being spent to provide heavily subsidized low-cost transportation for people who pay little or no taxes. The projected cost to operate it is only a small fraction of the projected fares that it will bring in.

I sincerely hope that the Tide stays within the Norfolk city borders.

If it morphs into the GreekFest Express to the Beach then crime will likely increase in VA Beach. Inner-city juvenile thugs will ride the Tide to the Beach in droves. They won't bring money into the Beach but they sure will be taking it with them when they leave the Beach

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/03/norfolk-light-rail-now-slightly-ahead-schedule

Ignorance.I seriously cannot see a bunch of "thugs" riding the train to the Beach. The Beach is already thugged out in the summer time. People need to stop acting like Va BEach is some crime-free resort area. If I were to translate this statement, it reads, "Don't build the train to the Beach becasue the black Norfolkians willl come start trouble" SMH.

[atp4984]

Quote from fdm505

http://hamptonroads....-ahead-schedule

Ignorance.I seriously cannot see a bunch of "thugs" riding the train to the Beach. The Beach is already thugged out in the summer time. People need to stop acting like Va BEach is some crime-free resort area. If I were to translate this statement, it reads, "Don't build the train to the Beach becasue the black Norfolkians willl come start trouble" SMH.

I get a huge rise out of mudslinging with those morons.

[rusthebuss]

Quote from fdm505

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/03/norfolk-light-rail-now-slightly-ahead-schedule

Ignorance.I seriously cannot see a bunch of "thugs" riding the train to the Beach. The Beach is already thugged out in the summer time. People need to stop acting like Va BEach is some crime-free resort area. If I were to translate this statement, it reads, "Don't build the train to the Beach becasue the black Norfolkians willl come start trouble" SMH.

its not just blacks that they are worried about. I've caught many attitudes and harassment by cops because I was from Norfolk. If you are white and from Norfolk, you are looked at like white trash

Edited April 1, 2010 by rusthebuss

[usermel]

It's an issue of perception(Norfolk urban/city/etc.) and its that simple. All Norfolk residents are viewed different. Heck, even my girlfriend makes jokes about me being from there and speaks on how Norfolk girls are and the people in the city and were both Black. Yes, race plays a small/medium part but, I agree its a Norfolk(as a whole) just as much as it is a race issue. Va Beach(Lived there before as well) has a holy attitude about its city. They look at there city as special and it is in a way but, they dont feel as if they have a thug elements as Norfolk and Portsmouth do.

I got news for them, i use to be a thug and knew alot of thugs in the beach. Places like Briddle Creek just to name one. Were all the folks in that place bad? NO! That said, there were some drug dealers and robbers there. I knew Va Beach guys in my day who would go to V Beach and pick random cats and knock them out. I was a teen so forgive me. Those guys were just as out of control as anyone I knew in Chesapeake,Norfolk or P-Town. Its perception for the most part. Id just ignore it because the Beach will need light rail to compete long term and. Norfolk has just as many good people as the beach. Its a class issue(poor,lower middle class,middle class,upper class,rich,etc.!) bottomline and people judge folks on what they think, not what they know and Norfolk does get a bad rap. L.G.N.M

[Telmnstr]

Didn't know us Norfolk citizens were 2nd class.

I say put down the region as a whole instead. It's like having 7 deformed kittens. Sure one might be uglier than the other, but in the end none are best of breed.

In the end though, Norfolk is a city with a pretty high poverty rate, and little new growth. I think Virginia Beach is next. People move up and out.

But of course, much of the wealth in this area is fake anyways, high debt loads. That which isn't is highly socialist, coming from the gov't.

In terms of crime, I've heard reports directly from others in other cities with light rail that said that it did increase crime around the stops. Also, I've heard stories about heat maps that show that crime goes down in the low income neighborhoods but goes up in other farther out ones.

We'll see.

I don't know why light rail would be any different though. Most of the area served by it, is accessible by bicycle anyways.

[varider]

its not just blacks that they are worried about. I've caught many attitudes and harassment by cops because I was from Norfolk. If you are white and from Norfolk, you are looked at like white trash

I don't believe this is true at all. Norfolk has more white people than black people anyway.

[usermel]

I guess the bottom line is growth goes hand and hand with increased crime. Maybe not all the time but, probably 50% of the time(I dont know, Im guessing here) it will go up! Since I was a kid I have lived inN.Y and D.C metro and Rochester,NY and Ithaca,NY! Each time I came back I saw a little more growth and increased crime over the years. Been back for a while now and see the number of residents has increased alot as well. I think growth is a part of having problems from traffic to schools and up to cost of living and jobs.

Crime is a product not just of bad people but, of people who cant afford to make a living who are desperate or people who are lazy and would rather still what others work hard for instead of working for it. Theres not one type of thief, NO(Bernie Madoff wore a suit,looked nothing like a thug and destroyed lives and stole multi-millions and most local thieves are small timers who take few $)! There are different types and they all look different. They arent all white/black/asian/etc. and dont all come from Norfolk/Portsmouth,VA! My point, in LIFE problems will happen we ALL have to cope with them regardless of race income level etc.! I face racism but, the bigger enemy I face is ignorance and a lack of understanding by others at times as well as myself. I decided long ago my Wisdom will guide me, not perception! Problems come with growth and its either go back to Country living old time VA or progress into Big City on the rise Norfolk metro and that goes hand in hand with problems, not just crime. Light rail will bring issues. We will have cars run into the trains as they have in other cities.

We will have people robbed on the trains. Soon they will have graffiti on them and they will have low income patrons on them as well as well of residents and locals. The whole thing is we all are people and as long as the earth spins we will have problems. Its most important we know how to cope and not mope!!! L.G.N.M

Edited April 2, 2010 by usermel

[VBIllini13]

its not just blacks that they are worried about. I've caught many attitudes and harassment by cops because I was from Norfolk. If you are white and from Norfolk, you are looked at like white trash

I don't know if that's true or not because I'm not from Norfolk and I haven't been questioned by the cops, but of all the white people I know in Norfolk and all the white people I know in Virginia Beach, Virginia Beach has more trailer trash and rednecks. The light rail stop near Lynnhaven/S. Plaza Trail, if HRT extends the line, will probably even add some affluence to the area. My hairdresser's old boss is in need of a little diversity. She has said numerous times derogatory names for blacks and told my hairdresser (who had just cut a black woman's hair) to never let a person "like that" in her salon again. Even if non-white Norfolk residents "invade" Virginia Beach, the diversity added would benefit people like that. The effect on crime, I think, would be minimal, but then again I have no facts to base that opinion on.

[ronsmytheiii]

guys, can we move this racial talk to the off-topic and focus on LRT updates? And can someone grab some pictures this weekend of new lines/construction since January?