Future Downtown Raleigh retail

[pdxheel]

What do people think about a downtown mall? Before I get crucified I'm not talking about your typical mall footprint. Several cities I've lived in recently (San Fran, Portland and Seattle) all have malls downtown. There don't look like malls from the outside but they are very competitive with suburban malls (high-end retailers) in those cities and bring a lot of people DT.

Examples:

Pacific Place (Seattle)

Pioneer Place (Portland)

Thoughts?

[ncwebguy]

In the days of the Fetzer administration, there were rumors that a development company wanted to create a "block" that was a forerunner of today's lifestyle center. I think it was to go on the Sir Walter Chevrolet block (due west of the new CC) and had a multi-screen movie theater, celebrity chef restaurant (Wolfgang Puck?) a Jillians/Dave and Busters-ish sports bar/pool hall/arcade (Sega Dreamworks?) and other shops/ice cream/whatever. I think the city would have approved it, but wasn't offering any financial assistance, or the devloper went bankrupt or something.

I think such a project, which would be similar to the "malls" in those pictures could work downtown, and could anchor/spark other retail. The street level of Site One and/or Edison could provide a place where national retailers feel comfortable, while locally owned buildings (Emipre, etc.) could continue to attract independent boutiques, restaurants, coffee shops, etc. Lure the suburbanites in with a starbucks and show at Raleigh Memorial Auditorium, and keep them coming back to eat at Fins, The Pit, Waraji, Elmo's (wishful thinking) etc.

The trick is to not make it too big so that the rest of downtown outside the mall is ignored. The task of balancing national chains with local options, should fall to the Downtown Raleigh Alliance and/or Urban Design center. The DRA should be a leader, replicating the functions of the "single landlord" aspect that attracts retailers to malls, lifestyle centers and strip malls. And provide market research on the potential customer base for retail -- existing and future downtown residents and visitors. And the UDC can guide/educate developers on how to provide street level space that adds to the overall quality of their projects.

[Jones_]

I have been to similar places in the Balston area of Arlington VA and on 16th Street in Denver and they both seem to complement not harm the areas they are in. The resulting pull of people from areas outside downtown should be an overall plus if it incorporates elements such as orienting some storefronts towards the street and does not present any blank walls like the Office Depot(?) in Asheville. Actually the one in Denver is a Pavillion with lots of covered walking areas...forces people into the fresh air but still has the trappings of a normal mall experience otherwise.

[RALNATIVE]

What do people think about a downtown mall? Before I get crucified I'm not talking about your typical mall footprint. Several cities I've lived in recently (San Fran, Portland and Seattle) all have malls downtown. There don't look like malls from the outside but they are very competitive with suburban malls (high-end retailers) in those cities and bring a lot of people DT.

Since Raleigh is not a major destination city in terms of having the attractions that typically bring people to downtowns (a 5th Ave or Michigan Ave.), the city should begin promoting a concept similar to "stay over the weekend" which worked wonders in Philadelphia. Raleigh has a world-class symphony, great opera and ballet, highly acclaimed resturants, and is developing quite an arts community. All we need at this point are a few highend 4 and 5 star hotels and some decent retail locations downtown like what you've indicated, and there is no reason why a concept like this would not work.

It would be a huge draw for people from all over eastern and central NC who long for a more urban and sophisticated experience during a weekend getaway. It would also help to fill up vacant hotel rooms over the weekends when business travel is dead. Raleigh is in a very unique postion and has many opportunities that I don't think the city is even aware of. The only way that downtown is going to survive and flourish into the future is by adding higher end hotels and retail to the mix and promoting the urban amenities that the city has to offer. It would behoove the city leaders to start thinking along those lines, but it does seem like they are starting to catch on.

[urbanvb]

Norfolk is a nearby example of a city that gambled and built a mall DT( a higher end one at that) when it was scoffed at for the most part. I must say it has paid off handsomely for the city as soon after tons of restaurants went up nearby and then the housing boom came along and now there are many types of urban housing being offered. That being said, sadly, there is little other retail in the DT area and unfortunately the mall did not put a lot of street level access except for the back of the mall where the restaurants are. I think a mall could do well DT Raleigh but I would be more excited to see something like Old Town Alexandria has to offer. IMO this is one time when a city did it right. Plus, Old Town has it's own stop on the Metro. I think I posted these pics before so please forgive the 2nd glance.

[Gard]

As I've said in a past post, I saw a downtown mall when I was in London and you couldn't even tell it was a mall unless you went inside. The entire facade looked like a series of buildings that had been there for centuries. A mall like that would fit perfectly in downtown. The question remaining is, do we have enough population downtown to support such a thing as of yet? Malls tend to have a lot of the same things in them, so in order to draw the crowds needed to support the mall, it would have to get some stores unique to that mall and not just things you can get at Crabtree, North Hills or TTC.

[RALNATIVE]

As I've said in a past post, I saw a downtown mall when I was in London and you couldn't even tell it was a mall unless you went inside. The entire facade looked like a series of buildings that had been there for centuries. A mall like that would fit perfectly in downtown. The question remaining is, do we have enough population downtown to support such a thing as of yet? Malls tend to have a lot of the same things in them, so in order to draw the crowds needed to support the mall, it would have to get some stores unique to that mall and not just things you can get at Crabtree, North Hills or TTC.

Exactly. A mall connected to a top brand hotel (i.e. Hyatt) would be ideal. I see that alot in European cities.

[JeffC]

But when these projects go bad, they go REALLY bad....for example, the Atlanta Underground, which has turned into a crime infested dump...

[Jones_]

Old Town Alexandria would be ideal, I have been there a good 50 times, but Raleigh has decimated a historical inventory that once came close to what Old Town currently has. The underground is disconnected from its surroundings in its own unique way being underground. Failure seems to hinge on how connected a project is to its surroundings, whether building new or trying to do something with the old. The underground's problem is also partly due to being next to the transit hub and alot of the surrounding office buildings being disconnected from their surroundings. Raleigh needs to keep its remaining historic inventory intact and encourage retail uses, demand all new retail only development interact with the street, and require new office buildings to have ground floor retail so at night these don't become empty unused spaces like our State Government complex. There are ground floor office uses in Raleigh that could easily, and probably should in time be converted to retail uses such as Cherry Huffman architects....that is 5 bays of historic frontage between City Market and the bus station that goes blank after 5pm. The renovation is great(awesome even), but for the most efficient use of space office use needs to go above retail. The Montegue Building would not be the same if Stewart Engineering was on the ground floor instead of Cafe Luna.

[RALNATIVE]

Old Town Alexandria would be ideal, I have been there a good 50 times, but Raleigh has decimated a historical inventory that once came close to what Old Town currently has. The underground is disconnected from its surroundings in its own unique way being underground. Failure seems to hinge on how connected a project is to its surroundings, whether building new or trying to do something with the old. The underground's problem is also partly due to being next to the transit hub and alot of the surrounding office buildings being disconnected from their surroundings. Raleigh needs to keep its remaining historic inventory intact and encourage retail uses, demand all new retail only development interact with the street, and require new office buildings to have ground floor retail so at night these don't become empty unused spaces like our State Government complex. There are ground floor office uses in Raleigh that could easily, and probably should in time be converted to retail uses such as Cherry Huffman architects....that is 5 bays of historic frontage between City Market and the bus station that goes blank after 5pm. The renovation is great(awesome even), but for the most efficient use of space office use needs to go above retail. The Montegue Building would not be the same if Stewart Engineering was on the ground floor instead of Cafe Luna.

I've always thought that Raleigh could do more with City Market and promote it as a major downtown destination. If only they would wise up and bring more interesting retail, and not just bars/resturants, to that section of DT.

[askmisterbrown]

I agree strongly with all Jones is saying.

The malls work only if they are either in a very busy and prosperous area such as London or Portland, or are major attractions in themselves, meaning they have lots of big-draw retailers.

A mall in a borderline or just-getting-going area, with little known shops, is bound to fail. People can

[ChiefJoJo]

I've always thought that Raleigh could do more with City Market and promote it as a major downtown destination. If only they would wise up and bring more interesting retail, and not just bars/restaurants, to that section of DT.

Keep in mind, the city as an entity can only do so much. I think the DRA & the UDC does a pretty good job of coordinating and promoting what needs to happen downtown (employment survey, retail inventory, etc); the city has a facade grants program and has tried to streamline the permit process, and we might even have a new downtown plan coming up... I'm sure more could be done, but at the end of the day, property owners and builders will need to step up and invest some cash.

I agree with Jones and Mr. Brown about preserving the historic core that we have remaining and also moving towards requiring street retail, if not in the entire DOD, at least in certain strategic corridors. The Wilmington corridor S of Hargett could be a target for a major renovation effort.

I don't think we can support a downtown mall at this point, but I could see something down the line, maybe after The Hillsborough, Hue, Site One and Edison are built and the residential base has taken hold (10k pop?). Finding the proper site is a challenge, because you need some sizable contiguous space on which to build. The big site I think would be a good one for a major retail center and even another highrise (a la Epicenter in Charlotte) is the Enterprise car lot. It's next to the RCC/Marriott (prime conventioneer access) and L bldg, about a block from Fayetteville St, near the PE Ctr, and has a fairly large footprint--enough to do something pretty significant that could drive retail development westward from F St towards the stuff at L and over to the old tire shops (prime redevelopment sites), the Pit, etc. An alternate location could be the Dillon Supply sites that TTA controls... imagine a Cherokee TOD that includes a retail mall that folks could access via rail or even bus from elsewhere in the region. In general, for a mall to work, I think it needs to be unique in offering something not available elsewhere... niche fashion, indy moviehouse, etc.

[ncwebguy]

I biked up and down Fayetville Street during a weekday lunch for the first time yesterday and was quite impressed. There were a *lot* of people out and about, with pedestrians waiting at every corner to cross F Street or the cross streets. I know the warm weather was part of the influx, but the area gets weather like that most days (though not quite as warm) from early April through early/mid November.

Pedestrian traffic dropped significantly west of Salisbury, which may be due to the few office buildings and restaurants in that corridor. But F Street itself was quite vibrant, even with RBC under construction. There seemed to be a lot of people making the trek east to City Market to go to El Rodeo, Vic's, etc. The "walk in the street" section of Wilmington near the parking deck construction site seemed to have a steady flow of pedestrians, though there were none on the west/RBC side of the street. I grabbed lunch at Gandalfos, which had only one other customer, but it was after 1 pm.

The city used to own City Market, but sold it off during the Fetzer administration because the city didn't see the value of using it as an anchor for revitalizing the city core. The current owner seems to do just enough to get by and collect rent. They are more than willing to let the city spend hundreds of millions of dollars on the F Street/CC/Hotel project since it helps them justify higer per square foot rent. But they have done *nothing* to fill the void that Greenshields left years ago, or do anything but put up a "for lease" sign in the storefronts near El Rodeo on Blount.

From the pictures of Old Town Alexandria, some of the appeal is the old buildings themselves. Having tasteful signing that pedestrians and vehicle traffic can see probably helps too. Some of Downtown Raleigh just needs a little work to be restored i.e. the metal that used to cover Dollar Zone/McRoys. New construction (Site 1, Edison) hopefully will make an effort at street level to fit in with the surroundings. I think/hope the Cherry Huffman space becomes retail if/when the hotel/residential portion of the Edison comes online across Martin Street.

Cherokee could have followed suit, but the street level space on Hargett between Wilmington and Blount looks like it is already accounted for. They are a good fit above that space, and could also be above a "mall" at the Warehouse District multimodal transit station.

The McDowell/Davie/Salisbury/Cabarrus block has a *ton* of potential as a retail/hotel concept. It already has a lot of parking on the SE corner of the block, and more can be built above street level retail on the Davie (across from Wake County's EMS and jail facilities) with office/hotel/apartments/condos on the SW Salisbury/Davie intersection, the west half of the Cabarrus side, and the McDowell corridor. The hole being dug out for the L goes pretty deep, allowing for more parking spaces without rising too high. The same could be done on this block. Enterprise would be better suited as part of a parking deck and/or closer to visitors arriving at the multi-modal station.

And the city needs to do a better job of explaining parking decks! After running several errands on Saturday, we decided to get dinner at F Street Tavern. We didn't want to drive home and then walk back, so I drove down a full F Street. I turned on Hargett and then Wilmington and parked easily in the Alexander Square deck. It was shorter walking from car to front door than it would have been if I parked on Hargett or the 200 block of F Street! I know people are not used to thinking that way, but that kind of education could easily be done to attract the "there's no place to park" crowd. During a free carridge ride after Friday's F street lighting ceremony, a couple down from Chicago was thrilled to "only" pay $3 by the NC history museum and walk the few blocks to F Street. They were amazed that city decks were free after 7, since that is when things just start picking up in some areas of the windy city.

[Monster]

I for one would like to see a dollar store with grocery and necessities so I do not have to drive too far if at all. It would also be beneficial for my income. Would anyone object on this need?

[Monster]

Concord Mills does well due to its proximity to 85, and the lack of specialty retail, movie theaters, and restaurants in the 85 corridor. South Park is pulling the retailers that would be in downtown (as a kid growing up there in the late 70s/early 80s, I refuse to call it uptown!). If Charlotte converted their old civic center into a mall-like place with Nordstroms, the fates of the center city and South Park could have been different. South park would still have done well, but a downtown Nordstroms could have attracted a lot of the high end stores that flocked to SP.

Triangle Town Center bent over backwards to get Saks for the same reason, but few other stores followed their lead.

Raleigh could learn from Charlotte and encourage downtown retail before other areas -- Crabtree, Cameron Village, etc. -- become too attractive to pass up. With Belks filling up the last Crabtree anchor, downtown could draw some retailers. Urban Outfitters could be a good fit for the "new" downtown. American Apparel has *no* mall locations, though I don't know how their Charlotte store is doing. And there is always H&M.

I like Cremara a lot, but I could see Ben and Jerry's setting up shop in the old Womens' store at Hargett and Wilmington or on Hargett between Wilmington and Blount. It would be close to Moore Square and Exlporis, and a couple of blocks from the Natural Sciences/History museum complex.

Wag, the dog store on Glenwood, didn't last long.... Does anyone know why?

The issue with competitive retail downtown is the price to lease property. It is outrages. If one of the landlords would not be so greedy I believe even grocery could survive.

[ncwebguy]

For better or worse, the future is always in a state of flux.... Capitol City Grocery shows you can't just throw money at a store and it will magically work, even near thousands of state government workers, a small college, and a somewhat dense neighborhood a few blocks to the north. With the economic downturn turning even further down, just about every retail sector is in contraction, not expansion mode for the next year or so.

That being said, Taz, Stitch, and a few other stores show there is a place for retail downtown, and every storefront does not have to be a restaurant or bar. Though rumors of H&M now seem like a distant memory.

Retail hasn't followed the beds/rooftops of Hudson, RBC, Park Deveraux, Morgan at Dawson, Pilot Mill, Capitol Park, Carlton Place, etc. yet into the downtown core, but chains Dunkin Donuts and Bruggers are in at 222 Glenwood, and Starbucks is on Fayetville Street.

I wouldn't be opposed to a dollar store downtown, but I wouldn't want it on Fayetville Street or Glenwood Avenue either. Maybe anchoring a new urbanish shopping center on Person near Shaw, or to occupy some of the space in Carlton Place on Davie.

Anyway, welcome to UP!

[Jones_]

Couldn't find a more suitable thread for this musing but....the Cameron Village Harris Teeter is packed...really packed pretty much all the time. I can't imagine they aren't looking to expand somehow (I think this is smallish compared to other Teeters..?), but also I think it really is time to wedge a good basic grocery store in somewhere downtown now. I always thought the remaining Dillion block (West, Harrington, Hargett, Martin) was perfect (adapt the current warehouse maybe?) or facing West street north of the West condos say between the two West apartment buildings and Southland Ballroom. Anyone else thinking the same thing? My perfect scenario actually is an Earth Fare coupled with a Walgreens on the same block...but again, just musing... 

[Green_man]

I've always thought that the eventual downtown grocery store would be an "outsider" - someone new to the area.  Either Publix expansion into an essentially underserved area in a new market for them... or a wealthy downtown Raleigh resident (or group of residents) starting a Piggly Wiggly since each one is an independently owned franchise. 

 

The three potential sites that I had envisioned were:  (1) old club, old church building across West St from Citrix, (2) Dillon warehouse, and (3) incorporated in the ground floor of Link Apartments.

 

I'm thinking that the catalyst development that would really drive the need for the grocery store will be the eventual development of the TTA site near Union Station - NW corner of West & Martin - into a mid-rise mixed-use building (as shown in one of the Union Station renderings).

[Jones_]

I actually dread going to Teeter now its so hard to get in and out of there. I have resorted to doing all of my produce shopping at the Farmers Market but things are about out of season now. And nobody seems to be even talking up the idea. I wonder if DRA ever does things like talks to grocery chains. 

[Jones_]

Walked into Cafe De Los Muertos today and looked around some. FYI, this is the new coffee shop in the Hue facing Hargett. I was skeptical of the space before going in, but its actually got a sweet mezzanine with a Matt McConnell designed staircase and other eclectic designed stuff. The owner was there is doing a lot of work himself and said he should be open in three weeks.