Norfolk Schools and education

[NSUREDD]

Very well said PeninsulaKiddo. As a Educator I see kids who have the same ideas as Telmnstr and end their formal education after completing high school. They say "I have friends that make a very good living and they do not not have degrees." All research has shown that on average persons with degrees make more over their lifetime than persons without degrees. If anyone could be a coder then business would not see a need to pay high wages for a job that anyone could do. Giving yourself a higher skill set can only help you.

[brikkman]

That name on a piece of paper, though, tends to say something about the applicant, especially when you consider letters of recommendation from people at that 'name.' I will not say that college or especially CERTAIN colleges are worth more than having the experience in the job itself, but they show a level of work, effort, and ability. Surviving certain schools and their programs (biomedical engineering at Johns Hopkins, Economics at University of Chicago, etc.) and doing WELL there is showing of a person's POTENTIAL. Sometimes, however, some slip the through the cracks and graduate from great schools yet are dumb as bricks, or have no common sense whatsoever, but I think that's the exception to the rule.

[cpeakesqr]

And I guess that's were I disagree. It shows effort, really? So effort is measured by the program you complete, in so many words that's what you are suggesting (even though we know people are exceptions to the rule). I agree with Tel, maybe not in that blunt manner, but I get what he is saying. I earned my degree, have had three jobs since graduation in late 02 and not one employer has asked me about my GPA. My resume is ridiculous because I spent so much time working on myself, I'm sure you understand that Peninsulakiddo as you seem to be taking the same route I did minus the 2 masters etc......I think it has a lot to do with the person's skill, not how and where they were educated. I do not recall my university as being the first or well known for anything other than being a HBCU, I think my education is pretty solid and comparable to just about anyone I

[brikkman]

You and Tel are in similar situations... tech jobs, right? I can see where your positions come from, but for people like PKiddo and I who are going into totally different types of careers than you or Tel, undergraduate and post-graduate degrees are a must. Learning International Systems and evaluating globalization come straight from the classroom, but if you're good enough with computers and networks you can get a job without a degree. An employer can see you're skills, but neither PKiddo nor I could even sit down with someone from the State Dept. or any international division of another government body without a degree and some kind of experience.

[Telmnstr]

Very well said PeninsulaKiddo. As a Educator I see kids who have the same ideas as Telmnstr and end their formal education after completing high school. They say "I have friends that make a very good living and they do not not have degrees." All research has shown that on average persons with degrees make more over their lifetime than persons without degrees. If anyone could be a coder then business would not see a need to pay high wages for a job that anyone could do. Giving yourself a higher skill set can only help you.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

"but I think Tel was saying the school (high priced pieces of paper) name had more to do with them acquiring or doing a job verses their actual skill set (always remembering the exceptions)."

I'm all too aware of that fact. Going to Christopher Newport University is a liability for me, particularly in my prospective career... In medicine, dentistry, medical research, and basically career remotely affiliated with computers, IT, IS, etc., whichever school you attended does not always matter as much (rightfully so - one's abilities and the inherent demand for them will provide a job and should). In International Relations and post-secondary education, however, the school you attend is important for other reasons, such as networking (knowing the right people in the right places in the industry), and publication opportunities.

Although our illustrious, quasi-dictatorial leader Paul Trible would like everyone to believe CNU has transformed into "Harvard on the James," I have to say I would still put us a good few decades from being anywhere near William and Mary, UVA, or Virginia Tech academically. And, to take a practical example from my experience at CNU, no one outside the Mid Atlantic knows we exist. When I go to Model UN conferences (I'm THAT big of a nerd), such as the Columbia University conference this year, people always ask if Christopher Newport is in Rhode Island. It's kind of frustrating. Moreover, it seems like we're precluded from awards because no one knows who we are.... Awards in the Model UN circuit seem to be awarded on 'repaying favors' to eachothers' schools as much as actual ability. Out of the 4 students who won awards in my committee, only 1 of them could properly pronounce their delegate's name properly. Pronounciation and reading ability seem to be rather basic necessities.... And these four guys were from, in order, The University of Chicago, Georgetown University, Seton Hall University, and Harvard University. Even if I am as smart or prepared or able as these students, I can't compete with those names, their connections, their resources - both financial and otherwise.

It's a sick system in higher education, but in order to achieve what I want to, I have to play the game and do respectably well in it. It's not the only route for people - and it shouldn't be - but in my chosen career field, it is necessary. You can't just "gain experience" in International Relations theory, it must first be taught, but - as we've discussed to within an inch of it's life - that is not the case in all careers. Everyone should be able to choose their own path, and all paths are not appropriate for all people. Along MY path, I'm gunning for academics: maintaining a 4.0, getting scholarships, awards, and honors at CNU, leadership in Student Government and Model UN, leadership in my fraternity, in my community. Hopefully the combination of factors will get grad schools and, eventually, employers to overlook the fact that - contrary to P Trib's delusions - I did not attend a Harvard equivalent.

One last note, however, is that I think it's important for people to be able to CHOOSE which path regardless of financial or other concerns. That's extremely idealistic, especially given the exponential rise in college costs (CNU advertised it's tuition/room and board prices at $6,000/semester when I matriculated in fall '06; for spring '08 I'm paying $9,100 - and we're a "cheap" school). Nevertheless, I think that if a high school graduate has put in the effort and WANTS to go to college, and eventually grad school, he or she should be able to. In lieu of that idealism, however, the best you can do if you so choose the academic path is to work as hard as possible towards opportunities, seek out programs, classes, internships, etc. that will provide you networking connections and practical experience. But - the ultimate disclaimer to my statements - my particular educational experience and needs will always be different than anyone else's. Everyone has different wants and needs, and they will all serve their purposes separately.

Sorry for the immense rant from Hell, guys lol.

[Telmnstr]

Big business doesn't see it that way as it is a fast paced life for them and they are concerned about turnaround. Interviews are "ahhh" and you often brought in on age (time served) and school rather pure skill set. At my current company, my old boss actually told me that I was too young for a position (I had to ask him was I applying for the presidency or something?) and hired a less skilled older gentlemen than me and expected ME to groom him. Yes, these sorts of things are true for those who have not experienced them. An ex naval dental tech chief was hired who had a c+ IT skill set and was slated to manage an INFORMATION SYSTEMS department were I was the department expert. I was told, maybe you can learn something for him and that worked for about 4 months tops.....I found out that I could run circles around him without a mere thought, he had a 5th of the knowledge I possess and he spent his rein over me telling me what to do and showing him how do things (mind you, he didn't know the first thing about Databases, no clue what programming was, web app development he would not even pretend he knew anything about it, and his network management was a E+ at best). I

[PeninsulaKiddo]

I should have stated that in some things I thing degrees are essential. Engineering, and what not.

I went to college for a while, TCC in Chesapeake, but it wasn't for me. It felt just like a continuation of high school.

Now if I were to go back, it would probably just be to satisfy job requirements, which are often set by people that I don't really respect in their ability to do jobs.

[Telmnstr]

I worked for a gov't contractor (I knew more than my boss at the age of 20, he was ex Navy). I ran circles around that guy.

I then left there and went to work for N.A.S.A. ... that was fun, lots of great toys. Low earnings though. Companies in Hampton Roads pay young people low wages. I liked the big computers, but the job was boring. This is where I noticed the degree thing. S to the A to the I to the C was all about them. We had a young employee who used a computer to do something for a church on the weekend and he ended up fired for mis-use of gov't resources. It wasn't the gov't that did it, it was the contractor. Well, the contractor supported their own employee when he wanted to go for a Ph.D, and that guy used *1 month* of compute time on a gov't cluster to do his paper for his Ph.D. To me that is misuse of Gov't resources and the Ph.D. guy should have been fired. But it was encouraged.

I left there to work for the Navy M-arine Corps Intra-net. That place was a cluster!@#!, but at least I was getting somewhere with the salary. My friend who was let go from the previous employer hooked me up there.

After that ended, I wound up at the Joint to Frcs Command. You know, touted in Suffolk. Same company as NASA. Millions in hardware, but another really boring job. Coworkers were cool though. That lasted a year, then I got an invite.

Went to a small startup in Norfolk. I had more responsibility, and I love saving people money. Too bad it was managed really badly. They are still in business, and expanding, which is odd.

I then left there, and went to J3ffers0n labs... Which sounds frigging cool, and what they do is cool, but my job was boring.

So I left there, and joined another startup, and I dig it alot. I save them tons of money, and I love that.

And of course, on the side, I have allllll my own projects. Many I never finish, but I have to use a wiki to track some of them : http://wiki.757.org/doku.php?id=projects

Meanwhile, friends that left Hampton Roads (with skills, but without degrees) have gotten farther, mainly because the companies do more, and are more open. And they don't play around.