Rochester

[MrSmith]

I know... its rediculous. The cooporate world is shaping these people in to exactly what they want.

If I stick to my urban planning major I'm going to be all against sprawl. Why can't people have any originality.... or common sense.

I don't think it is the corporate world that is shapping people to want houses. I think our history is so closely tied with the land and owning land. Heck, this country originally tied the right to vote to owning land. The government encouraged people to go farther West and gave away land. It has been the American dream for two-centuries. People have just never really gotten away from this way of thinking.

I live in a downtown brownstone and all the time I hear from people that they wouldn't like it because i am too close to my neighbors or that they would miss their yard. The reality is that because I don't have my own yard I see my neighbors less than when i lived in a house. And, instead of a yard I have a park just a block away --and i don't have to mow it

[sushisimo]

I think our history is so closely tied with the land and owning land. People have just never really gotten away from this way of thinking.

That's true. And there almost seems to be fear and paranoia along with it sometimes. As if to say, this MINE, and stay off it. I also live downtown, in a high density condo complex and I don't feel intruded upon or confined at all. Like Mr. Smith mentioned, I feel the other way most of the time. And when I want some outdoors and neighborly social interaction, I just go to our common grounds area and crack open a few beers. And no worries about lawns and neighbor kids kicking a soccer ball through my window.

[Garris]

I live in a downtown brownstone and all the time I hear from people that they wouldn't like it because i am too close to my neighbors or that they would miss their yard. The reality is that because I don't have my own yard I see my neighbors less than when i lived in a house. And, instead of a yard I have a park just a block away --and i don't have to mow it

I live in the same scenario in Providence, in an urban townhouse in two buildings with a central courtyard, each with about 7 rowhouses. I now have 13 neighbors and I know them all far, far better then my family ever knew anyone in the suburban neighborhood where I grew up.

And the lawns... Besides mowing them (which most people here don't do, they hire someone to do it), what do most people do with them? I mean, really? I see suburban tracts here with these enormous lawns... I think it's got to be a status thing, feeling like the "landed" gentry. Sure, it's nice for kids to play in, and I have nice memories of playing in my lawn growing up, but families in Providence do those same activities in parks.

I don't think it is the corporate world that is shapping people to want houses. I think our history is so closely tied with the land and owning land. Heck, this country originally tied the right to vote to owning land. The government encouraged people to go farther West and gave away land. It has been the American dream for two-centuries. People have just never really gotten away from this way of thinking.

I don't think it's the corporate world (at least not exclusively). It's multifactorial, a combo of corporate influence, government policy, economics, and racial/social influences. These have all combined to create a nearly 60 year social "assumption" since WWII that moving farther out and into a more suburban existence means "moving up" in the world.

Also, economics play a role. For 60 years, because of cheap land and cheap gas, the farther out you move into new developments, the more you usually get for your money. Bigger house, more land, more garage spaces, bigger lawns. Americans love any value that gives them more stuff for less money. The supersizing of housing.

That's certainly why my parents during the 60's moved from urban NY "way out" 60 miles north into the "country" (now a suburb). They could never remotely have afforded, fresh out of college with what they were making at the time, to build a home on Long Island or in Lower Westchester, but they could farther North in Putnam. Today, that house, now considered to be in the "core" suburb ring, is worth well over half a million dollars. Despite my having a very good income in a far, far higher socioeconomic group equivalent than my parents were in at the same age, I could never afford my childhood home right now that they built at an age younger than I am now.

The same is true in Rochester. A 1915 bungalow with 2 beds and 1 bath with 1 garage downtown is virtually the same cost as a bland sprawl development 20 minutes outside of town with 4 bedrooms, 3 car garage, and a large lawn (and no upkeep costs on the old house).

I hate, hate, hate sprawl, but until policy, gas costs, land costs, etc make the argument to move farther out more expensive than staying closer by (which only gas costs or anti-sprawl policy have the potential to do), until people stop wanting a bargain, or until people start finding spawl living stupifyingly boring, we're all stuck... It sucks...

- Garris

Providence, RI

[MrSmith]

In Minneapolis we are seeing a huge flood back into the city --especially downtown --which now has more residents than it's high in 1958. I think in part, it is because they have stopped expanding roads and the city has just about sprawled as far as it can. Add to that, the fact that fuel prices are going up and i think the shift will just increase. In fact our LRT line has been open 1 year and ridership is 65% above the projected amount. In addition in the last few months bus ridership has been increasing. The only thing holding lots of people back from moving to the city is the unfounded fear of urban schools --with charter schools and an open district policy, however, that may no longer be as much of an issue.

[Garris]

In Minneapolis ... I think in part, it is because they have stopped expanding roads and the city has just about sprawled as far as it can.

Yes, until they start implementing commuter rail, I think the Minneapolis suburbs have sprawled about as far as possible... It's statistically one of the worst sprawled suburbs in the US...

In fact our LRT line has been open 1 year and ridership is 65% above the projected amount. In addition in the last few months bus ridership has been increasing.

I'm hugely glad to hear that. Many Republicans in MN (for whom "mass transit" is a code phase for minority, poor, or immigrant) were predicting it would be a huge boondoggle that that no one would use. I'm glad to see the citizenry proved them wrong!

I used the LRT during a long layover at MSP recently, and I thought it was wonderful. How did the city live without it?

- Garris

Providence, RI