IN PROGRESS: Front Street @ Adriaen's Landing

[GregV]

Off the reservation CT gambling is illegal, so that probably won't fly.

The idea of adding a lot of retail before the downtown population picks up is a bit worrisome to me. Do we honestly feel the public will travel into the city to shop? I'm not so sure.

And as far as a residential component, I think the project should be above all else residential, with towers and a retail plaza. Downtown has about 1,600 residents, with about 3,000 more coming (hopefully), and this area is very attractive to multi-family development as it is near the riverfront. Now if only we could redirect I-91...

[sp1dey]

Off the reservation CT gambling is illegal, so that probably won't fly.

The idea of adding a lot of retail before the downtown population picks up is a bit worrisome to me. Do we honestly feel the public will travel into the city to shop? I'm not so sure.

And as far as a residential component, I think the project should be above all else residential, with towers and a retail plaza. Downtown has about 1,600 residents, with about 3,000 more coming (hopefully), and this area is very attractive to multi-family development as it is near the riverfront. Now if only we could redirect I-91...

I agree about adding just any retail... but something like an outlet village is a destination that people already travel hours upon hours for all thoughout NE. Plus Front street has the Convention center crowd to draw on. It's really a unique location and not your typical rehab rebuilding in the heart of a city. Put something unique that neither of the regional malls offer and it will do well without hurting Buckland/West Farms/Blue Back. Throwing a random retail store in the heart of downtown right now... while I hope someone does it, that would most definitely be a gamble. A charming village of premium outlet stores clustered together, easy money.... J.Crew, Calvin Klein, Polo you name it. People eat these places up.

[MadVlad]

Call me crazy, but I have never seen the problem with gambling in a city, other than those silly little laws, and all. Seriously though, what's the big deal? It's apparent to me that many large cities have casinos in them now (New Orleans, Detroit, possibly Pittsburgh now), and I just don't see the problem. Am I being short-sighted? I think a Casino would have done well for the city if they had built one back in the ealry 90's when they were considering it, and somewhere near the CCC would be awesome (and I'm not even a gambler).

[KRC]

Call me crazy, but I have never seen the problem with gambling in a city, other than those silly little laws, and all. Seriously though, what's the big deal? It's apparent to me that many large cities have casinos in them now (New Orleans, Detroit, possibly Pittsburgh now), and I just don't see the problem. Am I being short-sighted? I think a Casino would have done well for the city if they had built one back in the ealry 90's when they were considering it, and somewhere near the CCC would be awesome (and I'm not even a gambler).

Okay, crazy! Look at the lessons of Atlantic City alone (my old hometown). Detroit and New Orleans are no better off now then they were before (minus New Orleans obvious bigger problem today). Even Las Vegas' old town sucks now...unless, of course, you find yourself in the market for a bag of heroine in which case old downtown away from Freemont Street is the perfect place to be. The Strip is really nothing more than an adult play yard. It's not really urban.

Casinos in urban areas are bad, bad, bad. They produce problems much worse then the solutions they appear to bring to the table. By the way, I am a gambler.

[beerbeer]

I like that little casino in Detroit. Ask the restaurants in Greektown if they want to see the casino closed. It brings an incredible amount people into that downtown area. If Hartford had something of a similar scale (no attached hotel), it wold generate the same traffic.

The other towns AC, Vegas and New Orleans are tourist towns and different from Hartford. Detroit is a good example of how to incorporate a casino into downtown and one I wouldn't mind seeing the cty folllow.

[Jerry2]

I agree w/ KRC on this one. Have you been to Deroit? There's a lot of good things going on now, but I wouldn't exactly call it a tourist town. Hartford is looking up. A casino would devastate the local economy and increase the social services epidemic that Hartford has....They are no good! ....just my 2 cents..

[Theophrastus Bombastus]

I knew that casino comment would generate a lot of discussion.............. it's actually a moot point right now anyway, since only the Mohegans or Foxwoods can legally operate in the state, and they wouldn't want to risk keeping ONE person away from their multibillion $$$ investments down south. Yo Big 6 C&E High Horn Hardways!

Edited February 1, 2006 by Theophrastus Bombastus

[KRC]

I agree w/ KRC on this one. Have you been to Deroit? There's a lot of good things going on now, but I wouldn't exactly call it a tourist town. Hartford is looking up. A casino would devastate the local economy and increase the social services epidemic that Hartford has....They are no good! ....just my 2 cents..

Yes, I was just there about 6 months ago. Downtown is starting to look a lot better, but the city itself...jeesh! I really don't see how a casino there helped those who live there. Perhaps a few got a job, but otherwise it really hasn't helped the city in general in any quality of life issues.

[HartfordTycoon]

Yes, I was just there about 6 months ago. Downtown is starting to look a lot better, but the city itself...jeesh! I really don't see how a casino there helped those who live there. Perhaps a few got a job, but otherwise it really hasn't helped the city in general in any quality of life issues.

Nothing helps poverty other than education and opportunity. Any commerical delelopment will fall short if you expect it to lift the urban poor out of their despair. I'm on the Board of Directors of a Non-Profit in North Hartford, and the only thing the business community can do to help is provide work study, internships, scholarships, and the like for urban young people. If a casino is going to move here and do those things in the community, I would welcome them.

Edited February 1, 2006 by HartfordTycoon

[Luca Brasi]

I think Hartford is a very different city than AC, New Orleans or Las Vegas. Two are tourist spots and one exists solely for gambling. These cities aren't the business centers that Hartford is. And if anyone thinks that the people Weiker "protected" from gambling in Hartford back in 1990 aren't jumping in their cars and taking a 45 min. ride to Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun, they're sadly mistaken.

I remember Steve Wynn's presentation to the city. Hotels, high rise apartments, retail, movie theaters, ice skating and of course... casinos. The proposed spot was the entire area north of I-84 downtown. The design was less stand alone Vegas-style and more integrated into a downtown environment. If you want people from the Boston and Manhattan areas to visit Hartford, this was the chance. I think if done right, it could have worked.

[HartfordTycoon]

I think Hartford is a very different city than AC, New Orleans or Las Vegas. Two are tourist spots and one exists solely for gambling. These cities aren't the business centers that Hartford is. And if anyone thinks that the people Weiker "protected" from gambling in Hartford back in 1990 aren't jumping in their cars and taking a 45 min. ride to Foxwoods or Mohegan Sun, they're sadly mistaken.

I remember Steve Wynn's presentation to the city. Hotels, high rise apartments, retail, movie theaters, ice skating and of course... casinos. The proposed spot was the entire area north of I-84 downtown. The design was less stand alone Vegas-style and more integrated into a downtown environment. If you want people from the Boston and Manhattan areas to visit Hartford, this was the chance. I think if done right, it could have worked.

Me too, people are too "casino-phobic" to coin a new term. I totally agree that those cities can't be compared accurately to Hartford. I think that would have done more to help Hartford than all of the other so called "six pillars of progress" combined. But, no use crying over spilled milk. Let's get our Arena Built on that spot now.

[KRC]

Nothing helps poverty other than education and opportunity. Any commerical delelopment will fall short if you expect it to lift the urban poor out of their despair. I'm on the Board of Directors of a Non-Profit in North Hartford, and the only thing the business community can do to help is provide work study, internships, scholarships, and the like for urban young people. If a casino is going to move here and do those things in the community, I would welcome them.

Excellent point and I think you are exactly correct; however, I wouldn't hold your breath about a casino ever stepping up to the plate on that one.

[Cotuit]

If you want people from the Boston and Manhattan areas to visit Hartford, this was the chance.

I addressed this in the Providence Casino thread as well. If our cities think our fortunes as places to attract visitors rise and fall on having a casino, then there is much more wrong with our cities than we think. Hartford and Providence and their surrounding areas have so much going for them, there's no reason they can't attract visitors from outside the region without a casino. There are thousands of great cities that attract tens of millions of visitors throughout the world that do not have casinos. There's no reason that Hartford and Providence can't rank among those cities. There's no need for a casino to make our cities attractive to visitors.

[HartfordTycoon]

Excellent point and I think you are exactly correct; however, I wouldn't hold your breath about a casino ever stepping up to the plate on that one.

I actually think that the casinos have improved the lives of the tribe members SIGNIFIGANTLY. Many of these indians look white or black to us but they have proven their historical ties and live pretty damn good now. I have a friend in New London who says the tribal kids are now the local big shots with fast cars and fancy clothes. I'm pretty sure they are healthier and better educated as well now that they have struck gold, you could say. As for an urban casino, I have no idea what type of track record they have with philanthropic giving to their host communities.

[GregV]

I actually think that the casinos have improved the lives of the tribe members SIGNIFIGANTLY. Many of these indians look white or black to us but they have proven their historical ties and live pretty damn good now. I have a friend in New London who says the tribal kids are now the local big shots with fast cars and fancy clothes. I'm pretty sure they are healthier and better educated as well now that they have struck gold, you could say. As for an urban casino, I have no idea what type of track record they have with philanthropic giving to their host communities.

The "tribal leader" is 1/16th Pequot and he and his buddies conned CT into giving into their bogus vision that they justified through the same entitlement mentality that keeps our urban poor, well, poor. Saying that their lives and those of their children have improved is like saying that Pablo Escobar was a hero for doing the exact same thing: he upheld his community, bring wealth, education, protection and opportunity to hundreds of Cali locals. Does that justify poisoning people he didn't know with his cocaine?

Anyone who gambles knows, it's a drug like all the rest that have destroyed our communities. Go to Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun any day of the week, and you'll soon find their TV ads depicting sexy 30-somethings winning big are complete fallacies. The slot machines are filled with our grandparents spending their pensions away or addicts trying to make money for their next score.

Casinos do so much more damage than good, IMO, that if Hartford finally turns to them it will signal the end of our hope to save it. We shouldn't want jobs at any cost in Hartford, we should want GOOD jobs. And improving the lives of SOME residents in our fair city is not worth destroying the lives of ANY resident. It's better to be on welfare.

[HartfordTycoon]

The "tribal leader" is 1/16th Pequot and he and his buddies conned CT into giving into their bogus vision that they justified through the same entitlement mentality that keeps our urban poor, well, poor.

I think it's overly simplistic to say that an entitlement mentality is what keeps urban poor, poor. Most urban poor come from families who have been poor for hundreds of years going back many generations. As I mentioned before, I did my thesis on Intergenerational Wealth Tranfer Disparities Between Whites and Minorities.

Most Blacks, for example come from families who have been kept poor and ignorant for the last 300 years or more. That needs to be fully examined before you put all of the blame on the individual for being born poor with an entitlement mentality. Almost every African American's grandparents where poor and their grandparents where slaves. I hate to preach, but I can't help it when I disagree to such an extent. Blacks as a group deserve extra attention from the US Government that not only allowed but perpetuated the systematic rape, murder, enslavement, and abuse of African Americans since the founding of this country.

With that said, all people regardless of race, ethnicity, or country of origin need to be responsible for the decisions they make in life. Blacks are no different, but the deck has been stacked against us for along time and the consequences are still very palpable in our society.

Edited February 1, 2006 by HartfordTycoon

[Cotuit]

Not to speak for GregV, but I assumed he was speaking of the entitlement mentality of society and not the entitlement mentality of the minorities that may receive those entitlements. Allowing for the creation of casinos is really a poor way for us as a society to try to ensure that Indians are able to participate fully economically in our society. Entitlements are needed to a point, but if certain members of our society are persisting in poverty in spite of those programs, it may be time to reexamine them. And it is certainly time to examine how the various groups in our society interact and how and why some groups manage to thrive and others don't.

[HartfordTycoon]

Not to speak for GregV, but I assumed he was speaking of the entitlement mentality of society and not the entitlement mentality of the minorities that may receive those entitlements. Allowing for the creation of casinos is really a poor way for us as a society to try to ensure that Indians are able to participate fully economically in our society. Entitlements are needed to a point, but if certain members of our society are persisting in poverty in spite of those programs, it may be time to reexamine them. And it is certainly time to examine how the various groups in our society interact and how and why some groups manage to thrive and others don't.

I mean not to be smart ass, but some groups have been the direct beneficiaries of other groups' oppression/genocide. But, we are going into a dark place now. Let's stop.

[Luca Brasi]

I addressed this in the Providence Casino thread as well. If our cities think our fortunes as places to attract visitors rise and fall on having a casino, then there is much more wrong with our cities than we think. Hartford and Providence and their surrounding areas have so much going for them, there's no reason they can't attract visitors from outside the region without a casino. There are thousands of great cities that attract tens of millions of visitors throughout the world that do not have casinos. There's no reason that Hartford and Providence can't rank among those cities. There's no need for a casino to make our cities attractive to visitors.

True. But my point was based more on a "total package" concept more than betting everything on a casino (pardon the pun). Wynn's presentation was based on this. I think something like 10% of the entire proposed entertainment/retail/residential complex was actual casino space. In the context of downtown, it is a very small number.

[Jerry2]

I mean not to be smart ass, but some groups have been the direct beneficiaries of other groups' oppression/genocide. But, we are going into a dark place now. Let's stop.

Please check out the Coffee House...

[MadVlad]

Personally, I don't view a Casino as a people generator, but as just one more thing to do. I'm not trying to advocate having one just to get people to the city, but maybe when people are trying to decide whether to go downtown for the night, they just click off the choices of things to do...... and a Casino would be right near the top. Let's face facts here, we've all been to Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun. And the honest truth is, the last 4 times I've been there, I haven't spent a dime on gambling. I've seen concerts, been there to window shop, been there to show a friend of mine from England "the largest casino in the world", and for New Years Eve one time.

Do they have draw-backs, absolutely, however, so do all things. Right now as we all sit here and chitter like chickens, people are beotching that the towers to be built on the corner of Park/Main will cast too many shadows. I think that's stupid, but they see it as a problem. But I'm a little crazy, I don't see a problem with prostitution either. To me it's a victimless crime, something that could be regulated, taxed, and made safer. And no I don't get hookers either, I'm happily married and I haven't been with another woman since I stopped cheating on my last girlfriend to be with my now-wife...... did I say that out loud?

[uconn99]

Not that this adds anything to the discussion, but I have a friend who is 1/16th Mohegan and he gets 75k a year for the rest of his life just for being 1/16th. I asume the more you have in you the more money you get.

[HartfordTycoon]

Not that this adds anything to the discussion, but I have a friend who is 1/16th Mohegan and he gets 75k a year for the rest of his life just for being 1/16th. I asume the more you have in you the more money you get.

Damn, I wish I was 1/16 Mohegan right now. 75k a year for not doing anything. That's pretty friggin sweet.

[GregV]

Damn, I wish I was 1/16 Mohegan right now. 75k a year for not doing anything. That's pretty friggin sweet.

Exactly Cotuit, I wasn't referring to minorities. But this $75k/year is exactly what I'm talking about. It's earned through the suffering of others.

Even from a purely economic standpoint, it's disposible income going to unproductive use. Think of all the people who will spend what little money they have in the casino, praying to win big...

[Theophrastus Bombastus]

See attached:

http://www.icsc.org/srch/mt/descs/2006L08/2006L08.pdf

Did this event occur, and if so, what did he say about the Front Street site plan?

Do all of you also post on the 'skyscraperpage' forum, or is this where the cool guys hang out?