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COMPLETED: Blue Back Square


ctman987

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jcrc:

Hmmm... sign up? WHC has some great places -- I love LEMON GRASS for Thai food, I love War&Pieces, too.. the ice cream (that used to be a Baskins-Robbins) was good. I'd love to see more locally owned stores -- not chain stores. WHC used to have an Arthur's Drugs.

Abnyway, what would you sign up for... you in retailing?

War and Pieces is the bomb, and has been for over 20 years. They had to cut their space in half though, the rent was killing them, there is a Sprint cell phone store on the other side now...

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jcrc:

Hmmm... sign up? WHC has some great places -- I love LEMON GRASS for Thai food, I love War&Pieces, too.. the ice cream (that used to be a Baskins-Robbins) was good. I'd love to see more locally owned stores -- not chain stores. WHC used to have an Arthur's Drugs.

Abnyway, what would you sign up for... you in retailing?

My wife and I have a coffeehouse in Hartford. We are looking to have a second shop. We looked in West Hartford Center but cannot find a location we like. I know local businesses looked into Blue Back Square, but no one I know think the rent being asked is remotely reasonable. I didn't even bother to try. Don't think the concept is right for me.

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My wife and I have a coffeehouse in Hartford. We are looking to have a second shop. We looked in West Hartford Center but cannot find a location we like. I know local businesses looked into Blue Back Square, but no one I know think the rent being asked is remotely reasonable. I didn't even bother to try. Don't think the concept is right for me.

I have a feeling most of that development will be national chain stores.

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I have a feeling most of that development will be national chain stores.

I don't think so. The only chain stores we've heard about are Cheesecake Factory, Barnes & Noble, Fleming's Steakhouse, Crate & Barrel, Whole Foods, and REI. Granted, they will all take up a good chunk of space, but with 310,000 sq ft of retail at BBS, these chain stores will only account for 50,000 - 75,000 sq ft of space.

In other words...

75,000 sq ft = chain stores (24%)

235,000 sq ft = local stores (76%)

I'd say that's a pretty good balance.

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I don't think so. The only chain stores we've heard about are Cheesecake Factory, Barnes & Noble, Fleming's Steakhouse, Crate & Barrel, Whole Foods, and REI. Granted, they will all take up a good chunk of space, but with 310,000 sq ft of retail at BBS, these chain stores will only account for 50,000 - 75,000 sq ft of space.

In other words...

75,000 sq ft = chain stores (24%)

235,000 sq ft = local stores (76%)

I'd say that's a pretty good balance.

Upon further inspection, I found the previous numbers I posted to be inaccurate. Here are the correct numbers according to the BBS website.

230,000 sq ft of total retail (not including Whole Foods)

27,500 sq ft for Barnes & Noble/Fleming's Steakhouse/Cinemas

13,000 sq ft for REI

12,700 sq ft for Crate & Barell

10,000 sq ft for Cheesecake Factory

---------------------------------------------

total of 63,200 sq ft of chain stores

total of 166,800 sq ft of local stores

Still a healthy percentage of locally run businesses (62%).

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Upon further inspection, I found the previous numbers I posted to be inaccurate. Here are the correct numbers according to the BBS website.

230,000 sq ft of total retail (not including Whole Foods)

27,500 sq ft for Barnes & Noble/Fleming's Steakhouse/Cinemas

13,000 sq ft for REI

12,700 sq ft for Crate & Barell

10,000 sq ft for Cheesecake Factory

---------------------------------------------

total of 63,200 sq ft of chain stores

total of 166,800 sq ft of local stores

Still a healthy percentage of locally run businesses (62%).

Those are only the chain stores that have officially announced they are on. There are a few others high end upscale chain stores that will be moving in that haven't been publicly announced as of yet. I really don't think local specialty stores are going to be able to afford the rent...

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Upon further inspection, I found the previous numbers I posted to be inaccurate. Here are the correct numbers according to the BBS website.

230,000 sq ft of total retail (not including Whole Foods)

27,500 sq ft for Barnes & Noble/Fleming's Steakhouse/Cinemas

13,000 sq ft for REI

12,700 sq ft for Crate & Barell

10,000 sq ft for Cheesecake Factory

---------------------------------------------

total of 63,200 sq ft of chain stores

total of 166,800 sq ft of local stores

Still a healthy percentage of locally run businesses (62%).

The rent is about 60+/sq ft per year. For a 2000 square feet space, that will cost you 10K+ a month or 120K a year. That is going to be more than most independents are willing to risk. I personally don't think they will have the foot traffic to justify that kind of rent, I mean that is the same rent in prime Chicago location where you have insane amount of foot traffic. For the sake of those indies that signed up, I hope I am wrong, and I hope they have a fat wallet.

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The rent is about 60+/sq ft per year. For a 2000 square feet space, that will cost you 10K+ a month or 120K a year. That is going to be more than most independents are willing to risk. I personally don't think they will have the foot traffic to justify that kind of rent, I mean that is the same rent in prime Chicago location where you have insane amount of foot traffic. For the sake of those indies that signed up, I hope I am wrong, and I hope they have a fat wallet.

I think the foot traffic will be amazing for what we are used to in Greater Hartford. Not sure it's worth the same as a prime spot in CHI, but I think it is certainly justifiable that they are charging the most for retail in our region. That may even help Downtown Hartford to be veiwed as a more affordable option to enter Greater Hartford in a street level retail environ as opposed to BBS. At least right now it's more affordable.....

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I really don't think local specialty stores are going to be able to afford the rent...

Maybe, maybe not. Current rates in WHC run anywhere from $25 sq ft to as much as $55 sq ft. $60 a sq ft is outrageous, but it's not too much out of the norm for WHC. If a local specialty shop can afford $50 a sq ft, they can probably afford $60 as well.

Either way I think it's a win-win situation. If the rents are too high for local retailers and BBS is occupied mostly by chain stores, I think the people of West Hartford will frequent the "old center" and drive down the rent prices for BBS, thereby letting in local retailers. I don't think the people of West Hartford would put up with a huge development that is taken over by chain stores. I can say this from personal experience after living in WH for most of my life. We loved what WHC became throughout the 90's. People don't want the character of the town center to change drastically. A few chain stores here and there is fine, but there will be opposition to a full scale outdoor mall type development.

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I'll say this much - if BBS turns out to be an outdoor mall compromised of 75% chain stores, I will be upset and won't spend my money there. I'll keep spending my dollars at the locally owned stores of the old center.

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What impact, if any, do you guys think this will have on Downtown West Hartford? I think it would compliment it, and maybe hurt the Mall (we can only hope....).

It will complement West Hartford center for sure. And it will definitely hurt the mall. Probably more so than you can imagine, I know of a few marquis stores in Westfarms that are negotiating with BBS.

And yes, that's definitely a good thing, to get rid of the mall/big box attitude a lot of people in this area have.

Once we get them into urban settings, they'll regain their appreciation for it.

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If a local specialty shop can afford $50 a sq ft, they can probably afford $60 as well.

$10 itself isn't a lot, but $10 per square foot over 12 months is a huge amount of money, especially for a shopkeeper working on razor thin margins, and with the current volatility caused by fuel prices.

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$10 itself isn't a lot, but $10 per square foot over 12 months is a huge amount of money, especially for a shopkeeper working on razor thin margins, and with the current volatility caused by fuel prices.

True, but figure in more foot traffic (at least initially while it's a big, new "attraction") at BBS, and that should make up the difference.

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It will complement West Hartford center for sure. And it will definitely hurt the mall. Probably more so than you can imagine, I know of a few marquis stores in Westfarms that are negotiating with BBS.

And yes, that's definitely a good thing, to get rid of the mall/big box attitude a lot of people in this area have.

Once we get them into urban settings, they'll regain their appreciation for it.

It's debateable weather the mall will be severely hurt by this, but I can see BBS being a huge hit for the region economically.

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It's debateable weather the mall will be severely hurt by this, but I can see BBS being a huge hit for the region economically.

The mall will be hurt, by how much that is anyones guess. The mall was hurt when evergreen walk moved in. I know alot of people that used to go to west farms but now can just go to Evergreen instead. West Farms wouldn't be fighting this project tooth and nail if there profits weren't going to be affected.

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The mall will be hurt, by how much that is anyones guess. The mall was hurt when evergreen walk moved in. I know alot of people that used to go to west farms but now can just go to Evergreen instead. West Farms wouldn't be fighting this project tooth and nail if there profits weren't going to be affected.

It will be interesting to see how all this plays out.

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What impact, if any, do you guys think this will have on Downtown West Hartford? I think it would compliment it, and maybe hurt the Mall (we can only hope....).

I have mixed feelings about Blue Back Square.

On one hand, I agree that BBS promises to bring more pedestrian traffic to West Hartford Center -- at least to the east side of South Main Street. I also think the development contains a good combination of retail, residential, and commercial space. I especially like the presence of Hartford Hospital.

On the other hand, I think BBS has the potential to do long-term damage to the independent businesses on the west side of South Main Street. I have seen several BBS-like developments built in the D.C. area over the past few years (Pentagon Row in Arlington, VA, and Ellsworth Street in downtown Silver Spring, MD). To my dismay, the retail components of these developments overwhelmingly consist of national or regional chain stores; independent businesses are few and far between. Therefore, I'd be surprised if BBS winds up with many independent establishments.

I'm also concerned about the BBS parking plans. People from around the region will drive to one of the BBS parking garages, patronize the BBS businesses, then leave. What will prompt them to walk up the hill and cross a busy South Main Street to patronize the businesses along Farmington Avenue and LaSalle Road?

I think BBS will only hurt Westfarms' high-end boutique business, which -- as I see it -- separates Westfarms from the other malls in the region. No wonder Taubman Centers fought BBS tooth and nail!

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What will prompt them to walk up the hill and cross a busy South Main Street to patronize the businesses along Farmington Avenue and LaSalle Road?

I'm very interested to see how well the developers of BBS connect it to the existing West Hartford Center(or maybe that's the town's job, I don't know). I think there has to be some sort of traffic calming measures implimented on South Main in order for lots of people to walk across the busy street. The good thing is that South Main Street in WHC is only 3 lanes total; 1 lane on the west side of South Main and 2 lanes on the East side.

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I'm very interested to see how well the developers of BBS connect it to the existing West Hartford Center(or maybe that's the town's job, I don't know). I think there has to be some sort of traffic calming measures implimented on South Main in order for lots of people to walk across the busy street. The good thing is that South Main Street in WHC is only 3 lanes total; 1 lane on the west side of South Main and 2 lanes on the East side.

I checked the BBS website for the first time in months this morning. It looks like Memorial Road -- if signed properly -- might do a decent job of connecting BBS with West Hartford Center. I don't think it would be difficult for the town to widen the crosswalk at Memorial and South Main and time the traffic signals there to accomodate greater pedestrian usage.

With that said, there is still going to be a noticeable gap between the seamless retail corridors of BBS and those of WHC. According to the BBS website, the only BBS retail to face South Main is a small sliver set back from the street adjacent to Town Hall.

I hope the town and the BBS developers take great care over the next several months to integrate BBS with WHC. I think such a connection is beneficial to BBS and absolutely vital to the businesses currently in WHC.

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