Transportation Projects, Roads, Light Rail, etc

[Mith242]

The odds of 540 becoming a toll road in the future are next to nothing. It's the core interstate through the metro area, and if they ever get around to making it continuous through Bella-Vista (interstates do NOT have stop lights!) it will be an even more significant highway, as it'll be the "official" interstate connecting 44 and 40. At any rate, being the core path through the area means lots and lots of access points. This is where the toll road issue becomes next to impossible. You can't have an effective toll road with that many access points. You either have to have a bunch of toll points, which would really slow down traffic and cost a lot to build and run, or you have a main toll point or two that a huge number of people will simply go around, increasing through-city traffic to avoid toll booths, and leaving us with a worse situation than we started with. This is why, in my opinion, that 540 would be a terrible toll road, and in all likelihood will never be one.

(On a side note, I think an eastern bypass would do a lot more good than a western one as well, and I have no idea how they plan to fix the eastern traffic problems in the future.)

Very good points. I hadn't thought about the access points. How about this for an idea. In Benton County I think a western bypass makes more sense. They have more growth towards the west than east. That and it might be difficult to go too far east because of Beaver Lake. But what if they built an eastern bypass in Washington County and then used the future 412 bypass as a crossover point to the western bypass in Benton County? The only problems I could see if for one the topography in eastern Washington County could make it more expensive to build. I'm also not sure if you'd want to cut down the access points too much on the 412 bypass section or for that matter maybe even the eastern section in Washington County. Which could make the toll road option more difficult. But like you pointed out, you'd think they're going to have to eventually do something for the eastern part of the metro. Unless they're just going to let it stagnate and force growth and development west.

[edensfall]

Who all here is going to use a western bypass? Not me...

[Mith242]

Who all here is going to use a western bypass? Not me...

I can't say I see myself using it either. I suppose it might be useful to either those living in the western parts of the metro or people just driving through wanting to avoid heavy traffic on I-540.

[bubba72704]

Who all here is going to use a western bypass? Not me...

I definitely would... I live in Cave Springs, work in Bentonville, and have family in Farmington. This project sounds pretty attractive for many of us who live west of 540 and have had to enter/exit the freeway during rush hour.

[Mith242]

Looks like ORT is going to cut back, in part because of high gas prices. ORT currently runs 9 fixed routes in NWA. But looks like they'll be cutting two of those routes and reducing a third route. The two routes being cut will be the east/west route in Springdale and east/west route in Fayetteville. The route being reduced will be another route in Springdale. Although mass transit has been enjoying large increases across the country, NWA doesn't seem to be repeating that trend unfortunately. Ironic how we're cutting back our mass transit while most areas are increasing theirs.

[Mith242]

Looks like it didn't take long for Fayetteville to stick out in the Northwest Arkansas Regional Planning Commission Transportation Policy Committee (boy that's some name). Looks like Fayetteville was the only city to object to the study being done on a possible western beltway. I think overall most the other cities didn't object because it's just a study and federal money is paying for most of it. But I am wondering if some of the other cities realize the implications. A western beltway is spur growth in that area and I wonder if there will end up being a land grab by a number of NWA cities for that potential tax revenue. It doesn't look like any city outside of Fayetteville is too worried about sprawl. Still though I'd have to think wouldn't be available to any of the core NWA cities. Just seems to me that some of these cities could potentially be pushing growth outside their area.

[akahogfan]

Is the railroad track that goes through Dickson just west of the WAC still in use? It seems like that would be the perfect route for a light rail. Not only would it provide a great stop, lots of pedestrian trafic to Dickson, but it goes through Springdale, Lowell, and Rogers. I don't know how much it would take to convert it, or if that is even possible, but it appears to be the lowest costing choice. It also branches off in Rogers and goes right through the Wal-Mart HQ and on into Bentonville. Perhaps a stop at Washinton Regional, though it would have to break off just a bit. I am not too familiar with Springdale, Lowell, or Rogers so I don't know where those stops would be.

The biggest draw for the whole thing would be the ease with which to get to Dickson and with a little walking, football games (it goes by the Parking lot across from Baum as well). Just have parking near the stops up north and you don't have to drive down. It could also answer the question about moving the WAC as well as the parking deck for it.

Edited August 15, 2008 by akafish77

[Mith242]

More news about ORT. Looks like Mayor Coody is looking to help support and fund ORT is re elected this fall. The funding would be about $250,000. Mayor Coody also mentioned that public transportation is going to have to be looked at more seriously. Right now federal funds provide most of the funding for services like ORT. But soon in the near future NWA will hit the mark where federal funds are going to severely drop and we'll be expected to foot most of the bill. Might be a dark day for public transportation if we're having a hard time funding the small amount we're paying right now. Recently it seems the Benton County part of the metro has been funding the full amount suggested by ORT. The problem lately has been the Washington County part of the metro. With Springdale's revenue woes it seems unlikely that they will come up with the full amount of funding. Fayetteville could rectify the problem, especially if Coody is re elected. I think the situation in Fayetteville is complicated because of Razorback Transit as well. Razorback actually services more people but has some pretty big areas of the city that they don't cover at all. If the current political climate holds in Fayetteville I can see the city playing a bigger role in public transportation for the area. Fayetteville already seems to be pushing for more funds to be directly to things like that instead of a western beltway. I sorta wonder if there will be a big debate at some point in the near future between Fayetteville and some of the other NWA cities over what direction our metro takes. Looking for alternatives or improving what we already have or trying to build new roads futher away from the city and metro centers.

[Mith242]

Is the railroad track that goes through Dickson just west of the WAC still in use? It seems like that would be the perfect route for a light rail. Not only would it provide a great stop, lots of pedestrian trafic to Dickson, but it goes through Springdale, Lowell, and Rogers. I don't know how much it would take to convert it, or if that is even possible, but it appears to be the lowest costing choice. It also branches off in Rogers and goes right through the Wal-Mart HQ and on into Bentonville. Perhaps a stop at Washington Regional, though it would have to break off just a bit. I am not too familiar with Springdale, Lowell, or Rogers so I don't know where those stops would be.

The biggest draw for the whole thing would be the ease with which to get to Dickson and with a little walking, football games (it goes by the Parking lot across from Baum as well). Just have parking near the stops up north and you don't have to drive down. It could also answer the question about moving the WAC as well as the parking deck for it.

Welcome to the forum.

Actually those railroad tracks are still in use and the main line used in this area. Right now I don't know if there is even another line in this general area. I believe using the current lines has been talked about. Although I think it effects whether it would be light rail or a heavy rail transportation. It would certainly be the cheapest route to go but I don't know how easy it would be to work around the A&M trains. I think they also own the rail so we would also have to see if they would even be willing to negotiate in the first place. While many of us still like the idea of light rail, I'm beginning to wonder if it will ever happen. Light rail would cost a lot of money to get started and I'm not sure how well the general populace would embrace it. Seeing how people react to general developments and how people seem to be stuck in a suburban style of thinking. I imagine many people would rather spend the money on more roads like a western beltway. For that matter we have to work more on our current public transportation. If we can't even really support our bus services, seems unlikely that we would be able to support something like light rail when there's going to be very large costs involved just to get things going. I still think it's a good idea for the area to at least set aside some land in case things do work out. If it never comes about then the land can be sold and used for other purposes. But if you don't plan ahead I just don't think you're going to be able to get things done waiting till you really need it. I want to be positive and hope that something can come about. But I do worry that many people in our metro just aren't going to wrap their heads around the idea. Just seems like there's too many people who want our area to be all suburbs and not enough people to really get some more urban types of ideas going.

[greenblogger]

Light Rail in Northwest Arkansas is entirely feasible. First, most of the cash will come from the federal government. The region needs the leadership and vision to go after it. Second, using the existing rail right-of-ways is the best option - and would reinvigorate the struggling downtown districts of Rogers, Springdale, while improving ROI on Fayeteville and Bentonville downtown districts. Those communities were originally built around railroad stops in the 1800s (what is old is new again). Examples of using rail right-of-ways for light rail I've seen include the Blue Line in Los Angeles, Portland (OR), Phoenix, and San Jose (CA). Third, the region is laid out along a central corridor, lending itself to long-term (20+ year horizon) success with light-rail. Finally, will anyone use light rail in Northwest Arkansas? Yes! Build it and they will come. Northwest Arkansas is focused on where the world is today (a 1970s suburbia mentality) - instead, let's focus on where the world is going, and let's lead the way....

[Mith242]

Light Rail in Northwest Arkansas is entirely feasible. First, most of the cash will come from the federal government. The region needs the leadership and vision to go after it. Second, using the existing rail right-of-ways is the best option - and would reinvigorate the struggling downtown districts of Rogers, Springdale, while improving ROI on Fayetteville and Bentonville downtown districts. Those communities were originally built around railroad stops in the 1800s (what is old is new again). Examples of using rail right-of-ways for light rail I've seen include the Blue Line in Los Angeles, Portland (OR), Phoenix, and San Jose (CA). Third, the region is laid out along a central corridor, lending itself to long-term (20+ year horizon) success with light-rail. Finally, will anyone use light rail in Northwest Arkansas? Yes! Build it and they will come. Northwest Arkansas is focused on where the world is today (a 1970s suburbia mentality) - instead, let's focus on where the world is going, and let's lead the way....

Yeah I see what you're saying. But I just want to pose some potential problems. Not to dismiss your ideas but I think if we want to get this to come about we have to address some negative issues. I think one of the bigger problems is although we would certainly have to rely on federal money, I don't think the government will just send a bunch of money without taking a look. In general metros just don't just build a light rail. It is seen as a step up, an improvement over an already existing public transportation like a bus route. I think we would have to establish that we have an already well used public transportation along that route before the federal government would consider funding it. There is a lot of start up costs and there are other metros vying for those funds. I don't want to sound pessimistic or say we shouldn't still try. But I do think we have a long way to go before we could even think about getting federal funds for something like this. I still think it's a good idea to try to set aside land and try to plan for the possibility. I also think we'd have to really start getting better bus routes in each city as well. NWA is set in a central corridor which is useful for something like this. But at the same time so much growth has occurred recently and is built in a sprawling manner that doesn't work well with public transportation. Say we had light rail and I wanted to go to areas like north Fayetteville or west Rogers. These areas aren't laid out to be pedestrian friendly. Which would seem to me to make it even more reliant on a very well covered bus transportation so that people can get around. A light rail station put in an area with no easy way to get around from that station won't do any good. I don't want to sound like I don't agree with a possible light rail, I do support the idea. I just think there are some serious issues that we're going to have to work on if it's ever going to come about. I realize that it seems many people in our metro don't seem to like the idea of density and seem opposed to having our metro with much of an 'urban' feel to it. But perhaps on future large scale developments we could find a compromise. Allow some better density in some sections of these larger scale developments. Perhaps a bit like some nodes or clusters where there's a lot built up in just a few developed areas. Then just try to establish public transportation from these points.

[akahogfan]

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks.

And yeah, I don't think that this is ever going to happen, which is really a a shame considering the potential of the area and the current slowdown.

[thewizard16]

I've recently moved within Fayetteville and my new daily drive is helping push me towards insanity. However, this frustration with traffic has led me to wonder if anyone on here knows the traffic flow numbers on the Wedington/I-540 intersection and the Joyce/College intersection between the hours of 7-9am and 3-6pm (the times I'm driving through both of those). I've been in much worse traffic than I'd realized existed in this area, I guess, and I'm curious as to the actual volume those roads are carrying, since I'm quite sure some of them weren't designed/planned/or really, able, to carry this many vehicles.

Wedington has been particularly interesting, as the on-ramp traffic backs up onto the shoulder of the interstate pretty far back to those "food" and "lodging" signs on the side of 540, and that just seems flat-out dangerous.

[Mith242]

I've recently moved within Fayetteville and my new daily drive is helping push me towards insanity. However, this frustration with traffic has led me to wonder if anyone on here knows the traffic flow numbers on the Wedington/I-540 intersection and the Joyce/College intersection between the hours of 7-9am and 3-6pm (the times I'm driving through both of those). I've been in much worse traffic than I'd realized existed in this area, I guess, and I'm curious as to the actual volume those roads are carrying, since I'm quite sure some of them weren't designed/planned/or really, able, to carry this many vehicles.

Wedington has been particularly interesting, as the on-ramp traffic backs up onto the shoulder of the interstate pretty far back to those "food" and "lodging" signs on the side of 540, and that just seems flat-out dangerous.

My experience is that quite a number of exits back up like that during rush hour traffic. Not just Fayetteville, they also get pretty bad in Benton County as well. I'm sorta lucky in that a lot of times I can work different hours so I can try to skip the worst traffic. Another thing to keep in mind is that it will be much worse now with schools and the university starting. Generally the first month of classes are particularly bad. Then either students figure out different ways to get to campus or maybe some of them just stop going to class as much. As much as I'd like to complain about Fayetteville traffic, my experiences lead me to believe much of Benton County is worse. Unfortunately we're probably just going to have to wait till there's funding to change the interchanges. I guess the best advice I could give is to see if you can hit some of these areas at slightly different times or find out if there's any alternative routes to get where you're trying to go. I realize that's not a big help but don't think you're going to find a lot of relief with this.

[thewizard16]

My experience is that quite a number of exits back up like that during rush hour traffic. Not just Fayetteville, they also get pretty bad in Benton County as well. I'm sorta lucky in that a lot of times I can work different hours so I can try to skip the worst traffic. Another thing to keep in mind is that it will be much worse now with schools and the university starting. Generally the first month of classes are particularly bad. Then either students figure out different ways to get to campus or maybe some of them just stop going to class as much. As much as I'd like to complain about Fayetteville traffic, my experiences lead me to believe much of Benton County is worse. Unfortunately we're probably just going to have to wait till there's funding to change the interchanges. I guess the best advice I could give is to see if you can hit some of these areas at slightly different times or find out if there's any alternative routes to get where you're trying to go. I realize that's not a big help but don't think you're going to find a lot of relief with this.

I'm working on new routes, but there aren't a lot of options, unfortunately. I do think it may have gotten worse recently, I moved on the first of August, and it didn't seem quite as bad then, but the Wedington exit was still bad. I think you're right about Benton County though, I made the mistake of going up to visit some family staying at a hotel up there and go to the Promenade around 4:30-5 in the evening and it wasn't exactly fun.

[Galls]

I'm working on new routes, but there aren't a lot of options, unfortunately. I do think it may have gotten worse recently, I moved on the first of August, and it didn't seem quite as bad then, but the Wedington exit was still bad. I think you're right about Benton County though, I made the mistake of going up to visit some family staying at a hotel up there and go to the Promenade around 4:30-5 in the evening and it wasn't exactly fun.

I just need to say, as a New Yorker who moved to Fayetteville in August, what traffic are you talking about? Where is this traffic that would justify millions of dollars to expand a highway or create a new one. Aside from the fact that in my experience lane expansions never ease traffic. From what I have seen you people are talking about traffic burdens that add a grand total of 5 minutes to your commute.

That money would be much better served converting the A&M railroad to overhead catenary, buy EMU railcars, and rerouting ORT Bus, even razorback transit to service the new train stations, with a unified ticketing system.

I say this with bias, because even though I have a luxury car and the money to fill its premium tank up, I just hate driving and love public transit.

And having that railroad in the position it is, it such a potential blessing to the region if it would only use it.

Edited September 14, 2008 by Galls

[Mith242]

That money would be much better served converting the A&M railroad to overhead catenary, buy EMU railcars, and rerouting ORT Bus, even razorback transit to service the new train stations, with a unified ticketing system.

I say this with bias, because even though I have a luxury car and the money to fill its premium tank up, I just hate driving and love public transit.

And having that railroad in the position it is, it such a potential blessing to the region if it would only use it.

Welcome to the forum. Yeah it's pretty easy to see that public transportation isn't well respected by most of the population here. Although I think part of that is just the fact that public transportation is seen differently in this part of the country as opposed to where you're from. But even so I'd say we rate pretty poorly even to other metros in the region. I do think there are some that accept it. But until people are more willing to accept density though, it's going to be hard to get public transportation to work very well.

[Galls]

Welcome to the forum. Yeah it's pretty easy to see that public transportation isn't well respected by most of the population here. Although I think part of that is just the fact that public transportation is seen differently in this part of the country as opposed to where you're from. But even so I'd say we rate pretty poorly even to other metros in the region. I do think there are some that accept it. But until people are more willing to accept density though, it's going to be hard to get public transportation to work very well.

Well there is no way anyone can look at the monstrosity that is the NWA Mall area and College Ave. and say that is efficient/smart/practical design. That is parking lot hell up there, they do not even have sidewalks, let alone commercial residential mixed zoning. I understand how it got like this, but do not understand why people enjoy this kind of auto centric, isolationist and unhealthy quality of life.

[Mith242]

Well there is no way anyone can look at the monstrosity that is the NWA Mall area and College Ave. and say that is efficient/smart/practical design. That is parking lot hell up there, they do not even have sidewalks, let alone commercial residential mixed zoning. I understand how it got like this, but do not understand why people enjoy this kind of auto centric, isolationist and unhealthy quality of life.

Yeah at least Fayetteville now seems to realize the errors of it's ways. But there are some pretty bad areas like the Mall area. I don't quite get the particular lifestyle myself. But apparently a lot of people seem to prefer it unfortunately. I sometimes wonder if it's just the fact that it's just what they're used to and hesitant to try something different.

[zman9810]

The NWA Regional Mobility Authority had their first meeting. It sounds like there will be difficulty is choosing which projects to move on first with the Benton County members saying the Bella Vista bypass should be first and Washington County members saying the North Springdale bypass being the priority. There is a difference in opinion on the western bypass also with Centerton liking the idea and Fayetteville against it.

the idea of grouping projects was suggested and may be a way for comon ground to be found.

I had hoped dealing with I540 would be the priority seeing how it is already in place and needing improvements badly. Seems like you would want to take care of the immediate problems before you create new ones.

NWANews.com article

[Galls]

The NWA Regional Mobility Authority had their first meeting. It sounds like there will be difficulty is choosing which projects to move on first with the Benton County members saying the Bella Vista bypass should be first and Washington County members saying the North Springdale bypass being the priority. There is a difference in opinion on the western bypass also with Centerton liking the idea and Fayetteville against it.

the idea of grouping projects was suggested and may be a way for comon ground to be found.

I had hoped dealing with I540 would be the priority seeing how it is already in place and needing improvements badly. Seems like you would want to take care of the immediate problems before you create new ones.

NWANews.com article

Nice to see regional mobility is defined as "bypasses."

Well the %10 sales tax in Fayetteville makes Manhattan look cheap, so I hope they do not increase it in order to fund useless roads. Why hasn't a more obvious question been asked?

Gas prices have a significant ceiling price.

Arkansas residents are dirt poor when you follow median income.

Total vehicular miles driven have decreased significantly.

Why would you build more roads/lanes if demand for such roads/lanes will go down?

Sorry but roads are no longer an engine of economic growth.

[zman9810]

While I believe that options such as light rail, buses, bicycles and other alternative means of transportation are importatnat and should be planned for I am also a realist. NWA is built around a car and truck transportaiton system and I don't see that changing drastically anytime soon. The total vehicular miles driven may have decreased but when I drive around the metro, especially on I540, it doesn't seem to have had any effect on the traffic I encounter.

Until the voting public forces the local governments to change zoning laws to increase density and discourage sprawl public transportation in NWA will take a back seat to more and bigger roads. Unfortunatly that doesn't seem to be happening even in Fayettevile which prides itself on having a "green" image.

[Mith242]

While I believe that options such as light rail, buses, bicycles and other alternative means of transportation are important and should be planned for I am also a realist. NWA is built around a car and truck transportation system and I don't see that changing drastically anytime soon. The total vehicular miles driven may have decreased but when I drive around the metro, especially on I540, it doesn't seem to have had any effect on the traffic I encounter.

Until the voting public forces the local governments to change zoning laws to increase density and discourage sprawl public transportation in NWA will take a back seat to more and bigger roads. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be happening even in Fayetteville which prides itself on having a "green" image.

Yeah I am sorta curious to see how things are going to work out in the future between Fayetteville and the rest of NWA. You get the feeling there's going to be some differing opinions there. I guess I'm sorta like you. I certainly hope that alternative transportation gets a serious look, but also enough of a realist to know that change will be hard to come by. I think it's at least a step to get people talking about it. Hopefully we'll be able to take it to a further level at some point in the future.

[greenblogger]

I'm confused... I read all this "hype" about Fayetteville and Northwest Arkansas striving to be the green valley of the universe. Yet, the community transportation infrastructure has no viable car-pooling incentives, no meaningful public transit, the government doesn't mandate bi-annual smog checks on motor vehicles, there are no car-pool or bike lanes, traffic gets clogged on the highways around the employment centers (e.g., Wal-Mart HQ, NWA Mall, and around the UofA), building codes don't demand (or even encourage) sustainability, and my sustainability options pale in comparison to other cities where I've lived and travelled.

Instead, we want to pour more concrete and asphalt (assuming the government/taxpayers can even afford to out-bid the Chinese for it), and hope we can dupe some wanna-be Wal-Mart vendor into opening a field office here because they read a press release that said we're a leader in all things green.

Let's stop kidding ourselves that we're the green valley of the universe, and admit we're way behind the curve on sustainability. First, let's start working towards catching up with the rest of the country on all things green. And, stop following the broken path of believing if we pump out press releases, and pour more asphalt, "they" will come.

The incredibly good news is the Northwest Arkansas community is realistically only about 175,000 citizens. We're not burdened by the challenge of dealing with millions of people needing to rebuild its infrastructure (and mindset) to meet the new world order (sustainability). Set the stage now for where the world (and Northwest Arkansas) is going to need to be. That begins with a new vision and model - and funding - for a viable future in transportation for the region. Then, I'll believe the hype about "green valley".

[Mith242]

I'm confused... I read all this "hype" about Fayetteville and Northwest Arkansas striving to be the green valley of the universe. Yet, the community transportation infrastructure has no viable car-pooling incentives, no meaningful public transit, the government doesn't mandate bi-annual smog checks on motor vehicles, there are no car-pool or bike lanes, traffic gets clogged on the highways around the employment centers (e.g., Wal-Mart HQ, NWA Mall, and around the UofA), building codes don't demand (or even encourage) sustainability, and my sustainability options pale in comparison to other cities where I've lived and travelled.

Instead, we want to pour more concrete and asphalt (assuming the government/taxpayers can even afford to out-bid the Chinese for it), and hope we can dupe some wanna-be Wal-Mart vendor into opening a field office here because they read a press release that said we're a leader in all things green.

Let's stop kidding ourselves that we're the green valley of the universe, and admit we're way behind the curve on sustainability. First, let's start working towards catching up with the rest of the country on all things green. And, stop following the broken path of believing if we pump out press releases, and pour more asphalt, "they" will come.

The incredibly good news is the Northwest Arkansas community is realistically only about 175,000 citizens. We're not burdened by the challenge of dealing with millions of people needing to rebuild its infrastructure (and mindset) to meet the new world order (sustainability). Set the stage now for where the world (and Northwest Arkansas) is going to need to be. That begins with a new vision and model - and funding - for a viable future in transportation for the region. Then, I'll believe the hype about "green valley".

I think the biggest problem is that even if Fayetteville really goes totally green that doesn't mean the rest of the metro does. But yes there's certainly a lot of work to be done. I'm not sure where you got the 175,000 number. Is that just what you came up with in the urban core of the metro?